Only Three Are Tormented Eternally

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 5:40 AM

Minister Monardo said:
We have authority over Satan, a defeated foe

The entire point of the exercise is to understand that God IS adversely engaged with the adversary we battle with "within"

Temptations of the tempter do transpire within.

I might even suggest the outcome of this exercise is simply to instill "honesty" in us about this fact

Minister Monardo said:
Yes, we must engage,

Brilliant deduction

Minister Monardo said:
The real battle of the Saint is against our own flesh and carnal mind.

Oh? So you are going to make people Satan now? Why the sudden reversal. I know most are falsely led into the above conclusion rather than taking on the fact that the tempter works internally in us all, which places the tempter where? Yeah, the math is clear on this count. Satan works and speaks within people. Doesn't mean they are the same agents

Minister Monardo said:
Even if Satan were cast out, this battle must be won for our obedience to be perfected.

No one is released from the battle until one of two things happen. We die our final physical death, which is courtesy of Satan's sins. Or Jesus returns and wipes out our collective adversaries, the devil and his messengers, exactly as proposed in Matt. 25 and the entire book of Rev.

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 5:48 AM

Hoping2 said:
He had either manifested a loss of faith, or never having had it at all.

And was saved, nevertheless. Just as unbelieving Israel is saved post death, Romans 11:26-32

Hoping2 said:
If he sinned, he had been tempted to sin. (James 1:14-15)

Well, at least we are creeping up on the substance of fact being we all engage our adversary internally and that battle starts with lawless/evil thoughts which defile us all. Mark 7:21-23 isn't optional and does not stop, once saved. Point being none of us should be viewed as alone in the flesh. God also adversely engages the adversary within everyone.

Hoping2 said:
My position is that one must present real faith, or else certain doom awaits.

1 John 4:7 tells me everyone who loves knows God and is born of God.

2 Cor. 5:19 tells me that sins are not counted against people.

I'd suggest your positions have merely been led to bark up the wrong tree and ignore the real but unseen enemies

Hoping2 said:
You seem to think there is some element of devilishness remaining in the reborn.
I cannot agree with that stance.

And I believe it's flat our lying to say we have no sin, and that our sin is not "of the devil."

And even worse, to claim we are sinless. That is really the height of hypocrisy, the very stance that Jesus hated the most. Which unfortunately leads a lot of believers to falsely justify themselves and condemn other people, when in fact we are no better. Romans 3:9

David Lamb · Thursday at 6:00 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
And was saved, nevertheless. Just as unbelieving Israel is saved post death, Romans 11:26-32

But Paul had already written in the same letter to explain whom he meant by "Israel":

“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who [are] the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.” (Ro 9:6-8 NKJV)

Also, Romans 11:26-32 doesn't say anything about being saved "post death".

CoreyD · Thursday at 6:13 AM

Hoping2 said:
If the devil will suffer eternally, how can he have an end ? (Rev 20:10)

Persons are the ones making the claims that the Devil will suffer. Not the Bible.
The Bible says the Devil will be destroyed and come to an end.

Hoping2 said:
Yes, both "figurative" claims are printed in the bible.

On what basis do you feel obligated to make these expressions figurative, while claiming that a the Devil's torment is literal... in a book that clearly says it's using symbolism?

Hoping2 said:
I do not see them as literal events.
Figurative language is often used in scripture.
Sheep and goats being divided on the day of judgment is one of those figurative events.
You aren't opining that actual sheep and goats are being separated...are you ?

That is not a valid basis for taking any scripture you like and making it whatever you like.
The Bible also says people will be guilty of twisting the scripture. 2 Peter 3:16 That is a reality.

Hoping2 said:
OK.

I can't see how you got the idea that the lake of fire wasn't a real thing, from that scrip'.

It's not an idea.
I haven't done what you are doing.
The angel plainly explained each sign he uses, when he decides to.

He uses the Greek word οὗτος.
οὗτος, αὕτη, τοῦτο ἐστιν followed by a noun, equivalent to in this is seen, is contained, etc. α. is so employed that the pronoun refers to something which has just been said.

The angel said the lake of fire οὗτος the second death. Just as he said

Revelation 1:20 The seven stars οὗτος the seven angels, and the seven lampstands οὗτος the seven churches.
Revelation 4:5 The torches of fire οὗτος the seven spirits of God.
Revelation 6:5 The seven horns and seven eyes οὗτος the seven spirits of God.
Revelation 6:8 The seven heads οὗτος seven mountains, and οὗτος seven kings.
Revelation 17:12 The ten horns οὗτος ten kings.
Revelation 17:15 The waters οὗτος peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
Revelation 20:14 The lake of fire οὗτος the second death.

Individuals cannot just choose to accept what they want to, and dismiss what they don't.
Not if they are to be considered honest.
Because a person refuses to see, or accept what the angel said, that doesn't mean it's not plainly stated.

I do not twist scriptures when I feel like, as most professing Christianity do.
Its appalling to me.

Hoping2 said:
Amen.

To the glory of God's grace, I have chosen obedience, and its future rewards.
I hope you have too.

That's left for Jesus to decide. Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

People can claim anything.

Minister Monardo · Thursday at 8:34 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The entire point of the exercise is to understand that God IS adversely engaged with the adversary we battle with "within"

Okay. It is called "the Cross". Is that what you mean? So the ultimate "full armor of God" that we all have been instructed to put on in the obedience of faith is God. Can't argue with that, even if it grossly oversimplifies the "point of the exercise". We are instructed to "put on Christ, and make no provision for the flesh". I can list scriptures all day that have one Truth in common. We must obey them.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I might even suggest the outcome of this exercise is simply to instill "honesty" in us about this fact

Are you questioning mine, or someone else's honesty. I can be brutal.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Brilliant deduction

Snarky. And yet your comments are contradicting your sincerity. Are you here to be annoying. I will not commend the obvious success you have attained over the last two days. Do you think I do not know you? I have read your words for the past two days.
I won't be listening to many more if you continue in your most obvious carnal mind.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Oh? So you are going to make people Satan now? Why the sudden reversal. I know most are falsely led into the above conclusion rather than taking on the fact that the tempter works internally in us all, which places the tempter where? Yeah, the math is clear on this count. Satan works and speaks within people. Doesn't mean they are the same agents

Considering that the carnal nature makes us "satanic" is a tough one.
That's why it pays to be quick to listen, and slow to speak,
lest we hear, like Peter "Get behind me Satan".
Sorry to hear that you allow the tempter so much place in your life.
"Resist the devil, and he will flee", James 4:7
Nor give place to the devil Eph 4:7
You really don't know that much about this do you?

BelieveItOarKnot said:
No one is released from the battle until one of two things happen. We die our final physical death, which is courtesy of Satan's sins. Or Jesus returns and wipes out our collective adversaries, the devil and his messengers, exactly as proposed in Matt. 25 and the entire book of Rev.

Romans 16:
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men.
I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise
unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

I really do not share your "satanic burden" as I refuse to give him a place, I am well aware of his devices and I did not need to make a brilliant deduction in order to engage. Simply obedience. You might want to be more open to other Christian views on a forum. I can't remember the last time I gave the enemy so much talk time. Who do you love?

Minister Monardo · Thursday at 8:57 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I might even suggest the outcome of this exercise is simply to instill "honesty" in us about this fact

Can you in all honesty point out Satan in this passage?

James One:
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Jeff Saunders · Thursday at 9:26 AM

Hoping2 said:
I won't be offering any mercy to the devils, or to his minions.
Neither will God.

Those who think that, do not understand Gods heart, God is love, life, and light in whom there is no darkness. Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounds all the more, why do you think that sin is more powerful than Gods grace and mercy? God loves his creation, he knows the beginning from the end, do you really think that before God created all this he didn't have a plan and know the outcome? Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy in all.
2 Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.
Is 46:11 Indeed , I have spoken, indeed I shall bring it to pass! I have formed the plan indeed, I shall do it.
1 Cor 15:28 God will be all in all
Notice that scripture doesn't say all in some, and the rest are burning forever, but all in all, If this is Gods ultimate plan do you think that he can't do it?
Jer 32:27 I am Yahwey, God of all flesh, is anything too difficult for me?
Ps 115:3 Our God is in the heavens all that he desires he does.
We, Gods creation are still being created along with the rest of the cosmos, John 5:17 My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working, We are still in creation and all the pieces are doing exactly as God has planned out, the devil and his minions were created to do exactly what they are doing, once there job is done, they too will go through a refinement , which will be not fun, but in the end God will get what he desires.
Too many people think God created the world and satan come in and messed up his plan, now he is trying to same as much as he can. That's mortal men thinking not Gods plan.
Ps 50:21 These things you have done and I kept silence, you thought that I was just like you.

Jeff Saunders · Thursday at 9:46 AM

David Lamb said:
Well, the Greek word aioios is translated as "eternal" many times in our bibles. For example:

“"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” (Joh 3:15 NKJV)

In the very next verse, the same word is translated as "everlasting":

“"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (Joh 3:16 NKJV)

Strong's Concordance has the following entry for aionios:

166. αἰώνιος aionios [ahee-o’-nee-os]; from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): — eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Yes you are correct that it is translated many times as eternal, but by shear numbers does not make it correct.
Aionios is the adjective of aion, which means age or long period of time that we can't see the end, The reason we have it translated into our English is because it was translated from a bad Latin translation. Once Christian Churches became a official religion, then becoming and institution that was self propagating, the Greek speaking eastern Christians tried to correct the Latin Church but were rejected, Augustine started this and it morphed into the Catholic Church , which the reformation split off of, but they too used the English translation and today for 1500 years most of the Church has fallen into this error, thats why so many of our " books from the experts " still have the wrong definition of aionios.
In both the verses above it reads in the Greek as - life of the age or life pertaining to the age- because that life is only in Jesus and he is eternal, as proved by other scriptures, and if we are in him our life is eternal also.

Hoping2 · Thursday at 3:17 PM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
And was saved, nevertheless. Just as unbelieving Israel is saved post death, Romans 11:26-32

He will only be saved if he came back to the church and repented of sin forever.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Well, at least we are creeping up on the substance of fact being we all engage our adversary internally and that battle starts with lawless/evil thoughts which defile us all. Mark 7:21-23 isn't optional and does not stop, once saved. Point being none of us should be viewed as alone in the flesh. God also adversely engages the adversary within everyone.

As one who walks in the Spirit, (having destroyed the flesh-old man at my baptism into Christ and His death), the tempter is never on the inside of me.
I have been equipt to resist his overtures, and he flees from my resistance. (James 4:7)

BelieveItOarKnot said:
1 John 4:7 tells me everyone who loves knows God and is born of God.

I agree with John.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
2 Cor. 5:19 tells me that sins are not counted against people.

Those people are the ones who have turned from sin.
Sinners will not be exempted from judgement.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I'd suggest your positions have merely been led to bark up the wrong tree and ignore the real but unseen enemies

I'ld suggest you review your findings about me.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
And I believe it's flat our lying to say we have no sin,

It is a lie if the claimant is walking in sin/darkness.
But those who walk in the light/God can honestly state the fact that they sin no longer.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
and that our sin is not "of the devil."

Sin is certainly not of God.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
And even worse, to claim we are sinless. That is really the height of hypocrisy, the very stance that Jesus hated the most. Which unfortunately leads a lot of believers to falsely justify themselves and condemn other people, when in fact we are no better. Romans 3:9

As it is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:9-10)
I'll go with John, on this one.

Hoping2 · Thursday at 3:18 PM

CoreyD said:
Persons are the ones making the claims that the Devil will suffer. Not the Bible.
The Bible says the Devil will be destroyed and come to an end.

On what basis do you feel obligated to make these expressions figurative, while claiming that a the Devil's torment is literal... in a book that clearly says it's using symbolism?

That is not a valid basis for taking any scripture you like and making it whatever you like.
The Bible also says people will be guilty of twisting the scripture. 2 Peter 3:16 That is a reality.

It's not an idea.
I haven't done what you are doing.
The angel plainly explained each sign he uses, when he decides to.

He uses the Greek word οὗτος.
οὗτος, αὕτη, τοῦτο ἐστιν followed by a noun, equivalent to in this is seen, is contained, etc. α. is so employed that the pronoun refers to something which has just been said.

The angel said the lake of fire οὗτος the second death. Just as he said

Revelation 1:20 The seven stars οὗτος the seven angels, and the seven lampstands οὗτος the seven churches.

Revelation 4:5 The torches of fire οὗτος the seven spirits of God.

Revelation 6:5 The seven horns and seven eyes οὗτος the seven spirits of God.

Revelation 6:8 The seven heads οὗτος seven mountains, and οὗτος seven kings.

Revelation 17:12 The ten horns οὗτος ten kings.

Revelation 17:15 The waters οὗτος peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

Revelation 20:14 The lake of fire οὗτος the second death.

Individuals cannot just choose to accept what they want to, and dismiss what they don't.
Not if they are to be considered honest.
Because a person refuses to see, or accept what the angel said, that doesn't mean it's not plainly stated.

I do not twist scriptures when I feel like, as most professing Christianity do.
Its appalling to me.

That's left for Jesus to decide. Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

People can claim anything.

I'll simply disagree with your POV.

Hoping2 · Thursday at 3:20 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
Those who think that, do not understand Gods heart, God is love, life, and light in whom there is no darkness. Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounds all the more, why do you think that sin is more powerful than Gods grace and mercy? God loves his creation, he knows the beginning from the end, do you really think that before God created all this he didn't have a plan and know the outcome? Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy in all.
2 Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.
Is 46:11 Indeed , I have spoken, indeed I shall bring it to pass! I have formed the plan indeed, I shall do it.
1 Cor 15:28 God will be all in all
Notice that scripture doesn't say all in some, and the rest are burning forever, but all in all, If this is Gods ultimate plan do you think that he can't do it?
Jer 32:27 I am Yahwey, God of all flesh, is anything too difficult for me?
Ps 115:3 Our God is in the heavens all that he desires he does.
We, Gods creation are still being created along with the rest of the cosmos, John 5:17 My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working, We are still in creation and all the pieces are doing exactly as God has planned out, the devil and his minions were created to do exactly what they are doing, once there job is done, they too will go through a refinement , which will be not fun, but in the end God will get what he desires.
Too many people think God created the world and satan come in and messed up his plan, now he is trying to same as much as he can. That's mortal men thinking not Gods plan.
Ps 50:21 These things you have done and I kept silence, you thought that I was just like you.

God's mercy is available to all men, but not all men are interested in serving God.

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 7:44 PM

Minister Monardo said:
Can you in all honesty point out Satan in this passage?

James One:
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Can you eliminate the tempter from the equations of temptation?

Why would you do that? Just to blame and accuse yourself and your fellow man and ignore the tempter?

In any case whatever temptations we have in this life are prepackaged

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

David Lamb · Friday at 2:50 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
Yes you are correct that it is translated many times as eternal, but by shear numbers does not make it correct.
Aionios is the adjective of aion, which means age or long period of time that we can't see the end, The reason we have it translated into our English is because it was translated from a bad Latin translation. Once Christian Churches became a official religion, then becoming and institution that was self propagating, the Greek speaking eastern Christians tried to correct the Latin Church but were rejected, Augustine started this and it morphed into the Catholic Church , which the reformation split off of, but they too used the English translation and today for 1500 years most of the Church has fallen into this error, thats why so many of our " books from the experts " still have the wrong definition of aionios.
In both the verses above it reads in the Greek as - life of the age or life pertaining to the age- because that life is only in Jesus and he is eternal, as proved by other scriptures, and if we are in him our life is eternal also.

So when the bible mentions eternal/everlasting life, you believe it refers merely to life which lasts for an age, and then will end, rather like Methuselah? If, according to you, aionios does not mean everlasting or eternal, what Greek word does?

Minister Monardo · Friday at 3:47 AM

David Lamb said:
So when the bible mentions eternal/everlasting life, you believe it refers merely to life which lasts for an age, and then will end, rather like Methuselah? If, according to you, aionios does not mean everlasting or eternal, what Greek word does?

My understanding by grammar is that "everlasting", as it is also translated, is describing the nature of the life, not in terms of time, but essence. When I am alive in Christ, that life has no "bio-rhythm", no ups and downs. If I am not accessing that life in Christ, then I am not abiding in the "eternal Spirit" we have been given, and operating in my own strength.
We come together in the fellowship of that Spirit, and are accessing everlasting life, whether as healing, prophesying, etc...if we walk in the Spirit, we are walking in His everlasting life.
I believe translating 'eternal' gives a time-like nature that is a false narrative. In the Age to come there is no time, no concept to base 'eternal' on. We can speak of an "eternal God", but all that means is "He always was, and always will be", i.e. as it is written,
From age to age, you stay the same.
That is us, in the Age to come. Never changing, never tired or sleepy or hungry. Like God, we exist in that perfectly consistent existence. When we say "I AM, a child of God, we are laying claim to the ever existent I AM, as we are in Him, He in us, and God the Father will be ALL, in ALL.
A few references
Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Psalm 90:1 Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. everlasting here is olam, a very important word to consider also.
If we are alive in the everlasting Spirit, then are we, whatever that means, I wait to experience. Opinions and speculations about what many of these divine characteristics do much harm, as they are "too high for us"

Psalm 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.

Benediction

Romans 16:
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

David Lamb · Friday at 4:12 AM

Minister Monardo said:
My understanding by grammar is that "everlasting", as it is also translated, is describing the nature of the life, not in terms of time, but essence. When I am alive in Christ, that life has no "bio-rhythm", no ups and downs. If I am not accessing that life in Christ, then I am not abiding in the "eternal Spirit" we have been given, and operating in my own strength.
We come together in the fellowship of that Spirit, and are accessing everlasting life, whether as healing, prophesying, etc...if we walk in the Spirit, we are walking in His everlasting life.
I believe translating 'eternal' gives a time-like nature that is a false narrative. In the Age to come there is no time, no concept to base 'eternal' on. We can speak of an "eternal God", but all that means is "He always was, and always will be", i.e. as it is written,
From age to age, you stay the same.

But surely that is what "eternal" and "everlasting" mean, that as far as God is concerned, He always was, and always will be, and as far a the Christian is concerned, they have life in Christ for ever.

Minister Monardo said:
That is us, in the Age to come. Never changing, never tired or sleepy or hungry. Like God, we exist in that perfectly consistent existence. When we say "I AM, a child of God, we are laying claim to the ever existent I AM, as we are in Him, He in us, and God the Father will be ALL, in ALL.
A few references
Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Psalm 90:1 Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. everlasting here is olam, a very important word to consider also.
If we are alive in the everlasting Spirit, then are we, whatever that means, I wait to experience. Opinions and speculations about what many of these divine characteristics do much harm, as they are "too high for us"

Psalm 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.

Benediction
Romans 16:
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

I agree with you scripture quotes. In view of them, I am finding it difficult to understand your problem with eternal/everlasting life.

BelieveItOarKnot · Friday at 4:19 AM

Hoping2 said:
He will only be saved if he came back to the church and repented of sin forever.

Except for all Jews, the majority being unbelievers in Romans 11:26-32

That's what I love about theology. There's always a counter until you realize it's all 100% spot on accurate, even when it seems to be counter

Hoping2 said:
As one who walks in the Spirit, (having destroyed the flesh-old man at my baptism into Christ and His death), the tempter is never on the inside of me.

Yes, I am intimately familiar with all the scriptures your positions exempt you from applicability or belief in them that directly counter such claims

Hoping2 said:
I have been equipt to resist his overtures, and he flees from my resistance. (James 4:7)

IF you are resisting, that means the adversary is busy at work.

Evil comes from within. There are no personal exemptions listed by Jesus. Mark 7:21-23, Matt. 15:18-20

Minister Monardo · Friday at 4:53 AM

David Lamb said:
I agree with you scripture quotes. In view of them, I am finding it difficult to understand your problem with eternal/everlasting life.

I was not expressing a problem with translation, just the way some people comprehend. Our minds are geared towards time, which will no longer be, and will surely require an adjustment. I am just trying to make that adjustment in the imagination available with the mind of Christ.
Where eternal obviously throws so many off is when you go from eternal life, to eternal damnation. Quite complicated.
I stated that I prefer everlasting, as it denotes permanence and consistency to me. Eternal has a strong tendency to lead minds toward an incomprehensible time notion, Rather than perfection.

JulieB67 · Friday at 8:58 AM

Hoping2 said:
Yes, both "figurative" claims are printed in the bible.

So when does "death" not mean exactly that? And to destroy, the Greek word means "fully" so we can completely understand Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28.

And in the OT -we have fires that eventually went out. They were supposed to be "forever" as well but we see that's not the case.

I think these verse in the OT that tell us exactly what will happen to the wicked is this verse -

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

That's literally what a fire does.

That speaks of complete destruction (which is eternal) and coincides once again with Christ's teaching in the NT on the Second Death, yes, death. Not everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire.

Matthew 3:12 "Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

2nd Peter is also an example that we look to when it comes to the fate of the wicked

II Peter 2:6 "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

We would have to change many many verses if ECT were to be true. We have to take the Bible as a whole.

Plus we see that death itself is destroyed and the former things are passed away. Christ goes on to state "it is done" and that he makes all things new.

Jeff Saunders · Friday at 10:32 AM

David Lamb said:
So when the bible mentions eternal/everlasting life, you believe it refers merely to life which lasts for an age, and then will end, rather like Methuselah? If, according to you, aionios does not mean everlasting or eternal, what Greek word does?

For those who have placed their trust in Jesus, aionios life, that is life in Jesus in the age.
IN other scripture we know that Jesus is eternal and our life is placed in Jesus so life in Christ Jesus never ends because he never ends, Jesus is eternal, but the punishment of the age is not eternal it has a beginning and an end.

CoreyD · Friday at 3:17 PM

Hoping2 said:
I'll simply disagree with your POV.

The Bible says the beast... which is not a literal animal, is in the lake of fire as well. If you believe that is suffering, along with death and Hades, I understand why that is the only response you can muster.
What I said isn't "my POV". It is what the Bible teaches. It is God's view.
I agree with God's view, so you are free to disagree.

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