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Only Three Are Tormented Eternally

Jeff Saunders

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Which sources did Wycliff use to produce his Bible?
John Wycliffe used the Latin Vulgate as the primary source for his translation of the Bible into Middle English. The translation process involved several versions, including the Early Version (EV) and the Later Version (LV).


If you are referring to what most use, that is okay.
I believe I made reference, not to what most use, but what many translators, have done, and what they use.

Perhaps you do not understand what I am saying. I'll try to go slowly from point A to Z.

Several Bible translations rely on ancient manuscripts to produce their versions of the Bible.
English Standard Version (ESV)​
Adheres to an "essentially literal" translation philosophy and attempts to translate difficult Hebrew passages as they stand in the Masoretic text rather than resorting to emendations or finding alternative readings in ancient versions.​
New American Standard Bible (NASB)​
Known for its literal approach and is often considered one of the most accurate translations in English, reflecting Hebrew and Greek grammar and style the best.​

What are the sources of some of these translations?
Hebrew
In the third and second centuries B.C.E., the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Koine Greek, known as the Septuagint version. This was the version commonly used by the writers of the Gospels.

Greek
There are approximately 5,800 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. In addition, there are 10,000 Latin manuscripts, and 9,300 manuscripts in other languages. The New Testament autographa, the manuscripts written by the original authors, are unavailable, but manuscripts have been discovered that are dated as early as the 2nd century.

Note a very telling fact.
The man responsible for the first complete Bible in English was John Wycliffe (1328–1384)
The first English translation based on the Septuagint was The Holy Bible containing the Old and New Covenant, translated by Charles Thomson in 1808.

Notice how long it took for both Wycliff and Thomas.
More than 1,000 years.
Did the Septuagint and the Greek manuscripts disappear by then?
Not at all. They are available for translators to work from, and while that is not what most do, it is the case with those I referred to.

Wycliff used Latin. Does that mean every translator used the Vulgate, and other Latin texts available? No.
Several Bible translations were produced without relying on Latin sources, focusing instead on the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. One notable example is William Tyndale's Bible, which he completed in 1526, using Erasmus' printed Greek text for the New Testament.
Tyndale's work was significant as he translated the Bible into English directly from the original languages, aiming to make the text accessible to ordinary people.

Note that Tyndale's translation followed nearly 200 years behind Wycliff.
This shows that any translation can be produced from manuscripts prior to Augustine , and any Latin source you referred to.
I'm not referring to most that jockey off existing translations.

I hope you understand.


That put's Tyndale in the nothing category then, in your book.






It looks like we aren't talking about the same thing.
See sources above, and if you disagree with them, please be sure to provide a reliable source... which you have not yet done.

Yes, I do dismiss what you said, as an unsupported claim.
If you want to dismiss what I said that's fine with me, we all will give an account before God and not man. I would say we are definitely not on the same page.
As for providing reliable sources, who is to say what's a reliable source, that's just one mans opinion over anothers. We are not to be part of the worlds systems and it seems that some of the people on this forum want to be just like the world, truth is truth no matter what the source, the Holy Spirit is the one who is to lead us into truth not mans opinion. God uses men to speak of him yes but does not scripture say in Romans 3 " let God be true and every man a liar" , man has all kinds of opinions but ultimately God is truth, and he said the Holy Spirit will guide us into that truth.
I don't play the worldly games of everything must be documented to whatever the flavor of the day is, do I listen to what others have said? Yes , but we are to test the Spirits and inspect the fruit, when it comes to translation or historical things we have to rely on others and trust that the Holy Spirit will guide us.
We as children of the light must not be as the world and use there standards but must yield ourselves to Jesus and follow him, and that's what I am striving to do.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Yes indeedy.
No that is correct.
The Greek word used for eternal is aionios and it is pertaining to the age or age abiding.
Its like this- A tall man stood next to a tall skyscraper. The word aionios is like the word tall in the example. Do you really think that the tall man is the same height as a tall skyscraper?
In Math 25:46 the word is kolasis aionios, kolasis was a gardening term used for pruning plants so that they would produce more fruit, cutting away that which was inhibiting more fruit growth. aionios is pertaining to the age, so kolasis aionios is punishment to produce fruit that lasts for the age.
Aionios life is eternal only because that life is in Jesus and because Jesus is eternal so is that life, Jesus is life in all the ages so life in him never ends.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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God's ways are not our ways. You are only looking at this from the human, temporal perspective. How is receiving eternal rewards just then? Should we reject any eternal rewards God tries to give us because they are not just? Should we say "No, thanks. I don't deserve that. I should maybe just be given some temporary award, if anything, and then I should just cease to exist."?

From God's perspective, rejecting an offer of eternal life deserves an eternal punishment. It has nothing to do with what we consider to be just in our finite minds from our temporal perspective.
Do you know where the idea that God is eternal and an offence against God is an eternal offence comes from?
Back in the dark ages man has the idea that an offence against a royal was greater than an offence against a commoner, so if you killed a royal your punishment was far greater than has it been a common man. This ungodly idea got transferred into the Church, God is not a respecter of persons all are equal to him.
Scripture no place says that an offence against God deserves an eternal punishment, that is totally man made.
Read the OT how many times did Israel worship other gods and after judgement God always restored them, that's Gods heart, Acts 3: 19-21 "So change your hearts and turn about, so that your sins may be expunged, So that times of renewal may come from before the face of the Lord, and he may send the Anointed who was appointed for you beforehand, Jesus, Whom heaven must hold until the times of that Restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets an age ago."
God wants and will get all that he paid for, the reconciliation of all things- 2 Cor 5:19 " in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation."
 
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Jeff Saunders

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The story by Jesus about the sheep going one way and the goats going the other way.
Only two alternatives.
There is no category of "sorta goatish" or sorta sheepish".
The day of judgement will be absolutely black and white.
No shades of gray.

Thanks be to God for a real judgement, based on God's ideals and not man's ideals.
You do realize that in the OT sacrifice system goats and sheep were both totally acceptable offerings?
If you have ever had the opportunity to raise each, as I have, you would understand this word picture better.
IN my experience sheep are dumb animals, we had a barn on one ranch I worked at for the sheep to go in at night during winter so they would stay warm, it could be 10 below zero and a blizzard and the sheep would stand outside the wide open door and would not go in unless you drove them, once one started the rest would follow. Sheep also are much easier to control and much easier to keep fenced in.
Goats on the other had would much rather stay in the barn and have you feed them, they would be in the barn after a few drops of rain. Goats also are much harder to keep fenced in, they always want to be on the other side of the fence, in the places you do not want them, they will tear a fence to pieces to get out. they don't herd well, it seemed that they wanted to go their own way and once you got them moving as a group there were always those few who wanted to go their own way.
The picture painted is sheep need a leader and will follow one even to death, they are not very good at being independent but are very much content with follow a good shephard. Goats on the other hand don't like being told what to do they just want to do their own thing that often leads to problems.
Jesus was just showing how people can be sheep and follow him or be goats and do their own thing and get in trouble for it, not that sheep are good, the chosen, and goats are bad the unchosen.
Gods ideals 2 Cor 5:19 In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation
1 Tim 4:9-11- because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Acts 3:21- In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things
1 Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth
Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord
These are Gods ideals, man came up with the idea, through satan, that God would burn his creation in torment for all eternity, a very pagan idea.
 
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Hoping2

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Faith is perpetual doubt. Got it.
Have you never witnessed someone fall from the faith ?
I have.
What one believes today may not be believed tomorrow.
Yes, perpetual threats are designed to keep people intimidated and in check. Can't always say that's a bad thing with people who tend to go off the rails.
Who isn't tempted to...go off the rails ?
There is no act required. We're all sinners, period.
If our faith is not manifested here on earth, it isn't a real faith.
Pretenders are doomed.
The Perfect Sinless Sacrificed Lamb Seat is only occupied by Jesus. That's the way it is. There won't be multiple Jesus'
It is written..."For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col 3:3)
All those "in Christ", are in Jesus.
Let's try a synopsis of Paul for the same statements
:
Romans 7:21
---evil is present with me
Gal. 4:14
---temptation is in my flesh
2 Cor. 12:7
---a messenger of Satan is in my flesh
Romans 7:7-13 correlated to Mark 7:21-23
---evil lawless thoughts defile me

These are all honest presentations by Paul, no baloney, no phony. Very few care to step into those places. The evil present within them does not allow people to speak truthfully
Lets try another synopsis...
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
 
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Hoping2

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No that is correct.
Huh ?
The Greek word used for eternal is aionios and it is pertaining to the age or age abiding.
Its like this- A tall man stood next to a tall skyscraper. The word aionios is like the word tall in the example. Do you really think that the tall man is the same height as a tall skyscraper?
I think that both are tall.
In Math 25:46 the word is kolasis aionios, kolasis was a gardening term used for pruning plants so that they would produce more fruit, cutting away that which was inhibiting more fruit growth. aionios is pertaining to the age, so kolasis aionios is punishment to produce fruit that lasts for the age.
Aionios life is eternal only because that life is in Jesus and because Jesus is eternal so is that life, Jesus is life in all the ages so life in him never ends.
"Everlasting" anything means that anything is eternal.
 
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Hoping2

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You do realize that in the OT sacrifice system goats and sheep were both totally acceptable offerings?
If you have ever had the opportunity to raise each, as I have, you would understand this word picture better.
IN my experience sheep are dumb animals, we had a barn on one ranch I worked at for the sheep to go in at night during winter so they would stay warm, it could be 10 below zero and a blizzard and the sheep would stand outside the wide open door and would not go in unless you drove them, once one started the rest would follow. Sheep also are much easier to control and much easier to keep fenced in.
Goats on the other had would much rather stay in the barn and have you feed them, they would be in the barn after a few drops of rain. Goats also are much harder to keep fenced in, they always want to be on the other side of the fence, in the places you do not want them, they will tear a fence to pieces to get out. they don't herd well, it seemed that they wanted to go their own way and once you got them moving as a group there were always those few who wanted to go their own way.
The picture painted is sheep need a leader and will follow one even to death, they are not very good at being independent but are very much content with follow a good shephard. Goats on the other hand don't like being told what to do they just want to do their own thing that often leads to problems.
Jesus was just showing how people can be sheep and follow him or be goats and do their own thing and get in trouble for it, not that sheep are good, the chosen, and goats are bad the unchosen.
Gods ideals 2 Cor 5:19 In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation
1 Tim 4:9-11- because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Acts 3:21- In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things
1 Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth
Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth, and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord
These are Gods ideals, man came up with the idea, through satan, that God would burn his creation in torment for all eternity, a very pagan idea.
I don't plan to be among the disobedient on the day of judgement, so neither of our POVs affect me at all.
BTW, your addition of the word "gladly" to Phil 2:11, skews the entire verse.
Those destined for the lake of fire will in no wise gladly, finally, accept Jesus as their Lord.
They will simply realize too late that He is who He said He was.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Huh ?

I think that both are tall.

"Everlasting" anything means that anything is eternal.
So you think that the man is as tall as a skyscraper? If so you need to get a new set of glasses to read scripture with.
In English that may be true but in Greek, the original language was Greek and the word translated as eternal ia aionios and that Greek word doesn't mean eternal.
 
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CoreyD

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Satan has no end, and neither will his suffering have an end.
I've not read that anywhere in the Bible.
Where did you read that Satan has no end?

Did God not say Satan's head would be crushed? Genesis 3:15
Did Paul not say Satan will be crushed and be destroyed? Romans 16:20; Hebrews 2:14

Why do you not agree with these scriptures?

If it has been destroyed, how can it also be before God forever ?
God does not forget, does he?
The rebellion in heaven will never be forgotten, either by God, or the angels.
They will always remember the sons that rebelled, and the challenges made.
Also, because it was a direct challenge on God's sovereignty, and the issue of rulership had to be resolved, the outcomes stands before God, as settled - proving Satan a liar, and proving God's righteousness.

Satan's defeat is thus before God, and the faithful angels, and will be forever
Like Sodom and Gomorrah, the "flames" will forever burn. Hence, Satan's torment.

Where in the bible is that ?
Revelation 20:14

As a loving God has made the way to avoid all of that; (second death, lake of fire, eternal suffering, fire without light, hopelessness, and no sleep),
Yes, God has made a way for us to avoid all of those things. He is indeed a very loving father.

I have chosen the alternative to all of it.
What alternative have you chosen?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I don't plan to be among the disobedient on the day of judgement, so neither of our POVs affect me at all.
BTW, your addition of the word "gladly" to Phil 2:11, skews the entire verse.
Those destined for the lake of fire will in no wise gladly, finally, accept Jesus as their Lord.
They will simply realize too late that He is who He said He was.
The Greek word used for confess in this verse is Exomologeo- here is the definition - To acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations.
Gladly is part of the definition, it is those who think that it is a forced confession that have skewed this verse. If you think that God accepts forced or coerced confessions you are most surely wrong.
I don't understand why this is so hard to understand, 1 Tim 2:3-6 its God will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. God told us what his will is and so many try to undermine Gods will.
 
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Minister Monardo

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The Greek word used for confess in this verse is Exomologeo- here is the definition - To acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations.
Gladly is part of the definition, it is those who think that it is a forced confession that have skewed this verse. If you think that God accepts forced or coerced confessions you are most surely wrong.
I don't understand why this is so hard to understand, 1 Tim 2:3-6 its God will that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. God told us what his will is and so many try to undermine Gods will.
And "confess" homologeo means "to say the same thing"
Even if you quote scripture, you are not "confessing Christ"
unless your words are being directed by the Holy Spirit, in obedience.
Hence.
Matthew 12:
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak,
they will give an account of it in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Words worth contemplating?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I've not read that anywhere in the Bible.
Where did you read that Satan has no end?

Did God not say Satan's head would be crushed? Genesis 3:15
Did Paul not say Satan will be crushed and be destroyed? Romans 16:20; Hebrews 2:14

Why do you not agree with these scriptures?


God does not forget, does he?
The rebellion in heaven will never be forgotten, either by God, or the angels.
They will always remember the sons that rebelled, and the challenges made.
Also, because it was a direct challenge on God's sovereignty, and the issue of rulership had to be resolved, the outcomes stands before God, as settled - proving Satan a liar, and proving God's righteousness.

Satan's defeat is thus before God, and the faithful angels, and will be forever
Like Sodom and Gomorrah, the "flames" will forever burn. Hence, Satan's torment.


Revelation 20:14


Yes, God has made a way for us to avoid all of those things. He is indeed a very loving father.


What alternative have you chosen?
To destroy doesn't mean that something no longer exists but that it is no longer useful for what it was intended for.
Example- Luke 5:37 new wine in old wineskins will destroy ( apolountai which is from apollumi in Greek ) both the skin and the wine. The wine skin didn't disappear it was still there just not useful for what it was intended for.
Apollumi is the Greek word used for the lost sheep, coin, in Jesus parable but they were not gone from existence just not useful to the owner at that time.
Heb 2:14 the Greek word for the English destroyed is katargeo which means to abolish, to nullify, make no effect, annul, abolish or bring to naught, it doesn't mean to not exist.
Satan is an never ending being, but will be brought to nothing, no longer useful, made to no effect, but in the Greek its not to cease from existing.
Sodom and Gomorrah will burn forever? Ez 16:53-55 God says Sodom and Gomorrah will be restored, how is that possible with "eternal fire" maybe western thought on eternal or forever is not the same as what God thinks.
This is why understanding the language and culture that scripture was given to is so important, we as western Christians have made up all kinds of things that the original audience would never understand.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Have you never witnessed someone fall from the faith ?
I have.
What one believes today may not be believed tomorrow.
Like this guy?

1 Corinthians 5:5

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Who isn't tempted to...go off the rails ?

That speaks to 2 parties present. The tempter and the tempted.

Better to not confuse the acts of one with the other
If our faith is not manifested here on earth, it isn't a real faith.
Pretenders are doomed.
Let's be accurate with your position. You must present doubting faith, or else

It is written..."For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (Col 3:3)
All those "in Christ", are in Jesus.
I might agree except for that pesky presence of the tempter

Lets try another synopsis...
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
Again, none of the above applies to our adversary and we all engage in that battle, internally.

You simply have half sight in your positions and seldom an account of the whole, and such positions are mixed and confused
 
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Minister Monardo

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Again, none of the above applies to our adversary and we all engage in that battle, internally.
We have authority over Satan, a defeated foe. Yes, we must engage, but the battle is the Lord's.
The real battle of the Saint is against our own flesh and carnal mind.
Even if Satan were cast out, this battle must be won for our obedience to be perfected.
2 Corinthians 10:
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,
bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
 
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Hoping2

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So you think that the man is as tall as a skyscraper? If so you need to get a new set of glasses to read scripture with.
In English that may be true but in Greek, the original language was Greek and the word translated as eternal ia aionios and that Greek word doesn't mean eternal.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
Eternal "time" has no factors of relevance.
Either it ends, or it doesn't.
 
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Hoping2

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I've not read that anywhere in the Bible.
Where did you read that Satan has no end?
If the devil will suffer eternally, how can he have an end ? (Rev 20:10)
Did God not say Satan's head would be crushed? Genesis 3:15
Did Paul not say Satan will be crushed and be destroyed? Romans 16:20; Hebrews 2:14
Yes, both "figurative" claims are printed in the bible.
Why do you not agree with these scriptures?
I do not see them as literal events.
Figurative language is often used in scripture.
Sheep and goats being divided on the day of judgment is one of those figurative events.
You aren't opining that actual sheep and goats are being separated...are you ?
God does not forget, does he?
The rebellion in heaven will never be forgotten, either by God, or the angels.
They will always remember the sons that rebelled, and the challenges made.
Also, because it was a direct challenge on God's sovereignty, and the issue of rulership had to be resolved, the outcomes stands before God, as settled - proving Satan a liar, and proving God's righteousness.
Satan's defeat is thus before God, and the faithful angels, and will be forever
Like Sodom and Gomorrah, the "flames" will forever burn. Hence, Satan's torment.
OK.
Revelation 20:14
I can't see how you got the idea that the lake of fire wasn't a real thing, from that scrip'.
Yes, God has made a way for us to avoid all of those things. He is indeed a very loving father.
Amen.
What alternative have you chosen?
To the glory of God's grace, I have chosen obedience, and its future rewards.
I hope you have too.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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You are comparing apples to oranges.
Eternal "time" has no factors of relevance.
Either it ends, or it doesn't.
I think the point was missed, there is no eternal in the scripture we were talking about, in English yes the word is on most pages, but in the Greek it is not by the western way of thinking.
 
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Hoping2

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Like this guy? 1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Yeah, like that guy.
He had either manifested a loss of faith, or never having had it at all.
That speaks to 2 parties present. The tempter and the tempted.
Better to not confuse the acts of one with the other
It isn't confusing to me.
If he sinned, he had been tempted to sin. (James 1:14-15)
Let's be accurate with your position. You must present doubting faith, or else
My position is that one must present real faith, or else certain doom awaits.
I might agree except for that pesky presence of the tempter
The devil doesn't reside inside of the faithful.
Those in Christ, are rid of the deceiver.
It is written, "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
Again, none of the above applies to our adversary and we all engage in that battle, internally.
Why would I need to represent any adversary, when referring to the victorious ?
You simply have half sight in your positions and seldom an account of the whole, and such positions are mixed and confused
You seem to think there is some element of devilishness remaining in the reborn.
I cannot agree with that stance.
 
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Hoping2

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I think the point was missed, there is no eternal in the scripture we were talking about, in English yes the word is on most pages, but in the Greek it is not by the western way of thinking.
I won't be offering any mercy to the devils, or to his minions.
Neither will God.
 
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David Lamb

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So you think that the man is as tall as a skyscraper? If so you need to get a new set of glasses to read scripture with.
In English that may be true but in Greek, the original language was Greek and the word translated as eternal ia aionios and that Greek word doesn't mean eternal.
Well, the Greek word aioios is translated as "eternal" many times in our bibles. For example:

“"that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” (Joh 3:15 NKJV)

In the very next verse, the same word is translated as "everlasting":

“"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (Joh 3:16 NKJV)

Strong's Concordance has the following entry for aionios:

166. αἰώνιος aionios [ahee-o’-nee-os]; from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): — eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
 
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