Trump threatens Harvard's tax-exempt status after freezing $2bn funding, demands apology

RocksInMyHead · Apr 29, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
That depends on what kind of relator you can work with

Usually for first time home buyers, there are special loan types,

These days, not so much, unless you're particularly low-income or a veteran. Mostly, they're structured as 2nd mortgages that are (sometimes) forgiven after a period of time.

ThatRobGuy said:
and there are ways to roll the closing costs and PMI into the loan for people who may not be sitting on a huge nest egg for a down payment.

...which means an even larger monthly payment. When I looked at doing this for my first home purchase, it would have meant a significantly higher interest rate, and several hundred dollars more per month. I was fortunate enough to be able to put together a decent down payment - otherwise, I probably would not have been able to afford my house.

ThatRobGuy said:
However, based on what I posted before (about the average amount Gen Z spends on clothing, dining, drinking, and entertainment -- ~700-800/month)

Even cutting that luxury expenditure budget in half can go a long way.

$400 x 24 months = In two years, you've got $9600.

That's what a lot of us had to do...my first apartment was cheap and on the scuzzy side, and intentionally set aside a couple hundred a month for a few years for my "get out of the scuzzy apartment fund"

Sure, but I'd like to see a source for those claims about "luxury expenditures".

ThatRobGuy said:
It should be even easier now, given that a noteworthy portion of the "boomerang generation" (who goes back to living at home for a bit after college) gets to live rent free.

I thought this was a bad thing?

BCP1928 · Apr 29, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
So what, then, would you say would be a reasonable standard with regards to expectations for a fresh graduate coming out of college for their first job?...and what they're expecting for their first home?

What they and their employer agree to.
Clean, cheap, in a relatively safe neighborhood, no long commute--the usual.

RocksInMyHead said:
These days, not so much, unless you're particularly low-income or a veteran. Mostly, they're structured as 2nd mortgages that are (sometimes) forgiven after a period of time.

...which means an even larger monthly payment. When I looked at doing this for my first home purchase, it would have meant a significantly higher interest rate, and several hundred dollars more per month. I was fortunate enough to be able to put together a decent down payment - otherwise, I probably would not have been able to afford my house.

Sure, but I'd like to see a source for those claims about "luxury expenditures".

I thought this was a bad thing?

Well, it is. It makes it easier for them to wallow in their high-spending hedonistic lifestyle while complaining about high housing costs. I think it's the complaining that bothers some conservatives more than the lifestyle.

rambot · Apr 29, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
However, based on what I posted before (about the average amount Gen Z spends on clothing, dining, drinking, and entertainment -- ~700-800/month)

Where did you get that data also?

WAs it here?
Gen Z Financial Habits: Spending & Saving Stats | Self Financial

I gotta say, I don't think their spending habits are THAT unbelievably aggregious and I have a distinct impression that there is some significant data skewing going on here. For eg: over HALF of genZ spend less than 80$ on entertainment in a month.
That seems very reasonable.

rjs330 · Apr 29, 2025

BCP1928 said:
Generally. that's true for all of us. We want to do what we want as long as it does not harm anyone else. Turning down a job offer out of moral concern does not harm anyone else and may actually do some good.

You are right that it's what we want. However, that is not reality. None of us get to do that. And that's the problem. You don't always get what you want.

BCP1928 · Apr 29, 2025

rjs330 said:
You are right that it's what we want. However, that is not reality. None of us get to do that. And that's the problem. You don't always get what you want.

And who gets to decide what is OK for a person to want?

Belk · Apr 29, 2025

rjs330 said:
You are right that it's what we want. However, that is not reality. None of us get to do that. And that's the problem. You don't always get what you want.

We don't get to turn down work because it does not align with our moral beliefs? Guess someone better tell those wedding cake bakers.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 30, 2025

rambot said:
Where did you get that data also?

WAs it here?
Gen Z Financial Habits: Spending & Saving Stats | Self Financial

I gotta say, I don't think their spending habits are THAT unbelievably aggregious and I have a distinct impression that there is some significant data skewing going on here. For eg: over HALF of genZ spend less than 80$ on entertainment in a month.
That seems very reasonable.

Gen Z Financial Habits: Spending & Saving Stats | Self Financial

The survey analyzes Gen Z’s financial habits to see how much this generation is saving, how much they’re spending, and which financial issues worry them the most.

www.self.inc

https://moneywise.com/managing-money/debt/spend-z-a-staggering-40-of-gen-zers-plan-to-splurge-more-on-non-essentials-this-year-compared-to-last-despite-mounting-credit-card-and-student-loan-debt

Spending on entertainment

The estimated average amount Gen Z spent on entertainment was $157.07 per month, amounting to $1,884.84 per year, which includes streaming services, music, gaming and similar products.

Spending on social events

When it came to spending on socializing like eating out or going to a bar or club, the estimated average amount Gen Z spent was $166.75 per month, or just over $2,000 per year.

Shopping for clothes, cosmetics and gadgets

Survey respondents were asked how much money they typically spend on shopping for clothes, cosmetics, gadgets and similar items each month. The estimated average amount Gen Z spent on these items was $178.11 per month.

Spending on pets

A 2022 survey found that Gen Z spends an average of $1,885 ($157.08 per month) on their pets every year. This is more than every other generation surveyed. (AAHA)

That comes in at a ball-park figure just shy of $700/month when added up.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 30, 2025

BCP1928 said:
And who gets to decide what is OK for a person to want?

BCP1928 said:
Generally. that's true for all of us. We want to do what we want as long as it does not harm anyone else. Turning down a job offer out of moral concern does not harm anyone else and may actually do some good.

As I noted before, having a significant portion of the younger generation suggesting that they'd turn down jobs (while simultaneously complaining about how tough the job market and economy are) over things that they can't possibly hope to control isn't an "externality-free" endeavor.

As I also cited before, a significant portion of them (north of 40%) said that they'd turn town a job if the company's leadership didn't align with them politically, and a third said that they would do the same if a company's leadership team isn't diverse enough.

I also linked the WaPo piece that referenced a study analyzing voter registration data from top executives at S&P 1500 firms between 2008 and 2020 that found that approximately 69% identified as Republicans, while 31% were Democrats.

Seems like quite an impasse...

Or, to put it more plainly, millions of people refusing work (thus, neglecting their part of the social contract for our safety net programs), over something they can't change, is, indeed, detrimental.

Unless people think it's a viable expectation that other people should be strongarmed into voting for the other party, and arbitrarily firing people to replace them with more diverse people, for reasons bordering on economic/political blackmail?

BCP1928 · Apr 30, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
As I noted before, having a significant portion of the younger generation suggesting that they'd turn down jobs (while simultaneously complaining about how tough the job market and economy are) over things that they can't possibly hope to control isn't an "externality-free" endeavor.

It's encouraging that they would exhibit that level of moral compass in the face of a tough job market.

ThatRobGuy said:
As I also cited before, a significant portion of them (north of 40%) said that they'd turn town a job if the company's leadership didn't align with them politically, and a third said that they would do the same if a company's leadership team isn't diverse enough.

Good for them.

ThatRobGuy said:
I also linked the WaPo piece that referenced a study analyzing voter registration data from top executives at S&P 1500 firms between 2008 and 2020 that found that approximately 69% identified as Republicans, while 31% were Democrats.

So what? What percentage of them are MAGAcrats who bring their politics and their religion to work?

ThatRobGuy said:
Or, to put it more plainly, millions of people refusing work (thus, neglecting their part of the social contract for our safety net programs), over something they can't change, is, indeed, detrimental.

What social contract? What is it that they can't change? Who says so?

ThatRobGuy said:
Unless people think it's a viable expectation that other people should be strongarmed into voting for the other party, and arbitrarily firing people to replace them with more diverse people, for reasons bordering on economic blackmail?

I don't see what point you are trying to make here. Maybe a coherent sentence would help.

rambot · Apr 30, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
Gen Z Financial Habits: Spending & Saving Stats | Self Financial

The survey analyzes Gen Z’s financial habits to see how much this generation is saving, how much they’re spending, and which financial issues worry them the most.

www.self.inc

https://moneywise.com/managing-money/debt/spend-z-a-staggering-40-of-gen-zers-plan-to-splurge-more-on-non-essentials-this-year-compared-to-last-despite-mounting-credit-card-and-student-loan-debt

Spending on entertainment
The estimated average amount Gen Z spent on entertainment was $157.07 per month, amounting to $1,884.84 per year, which includes streaming services, music, gaming and similar products.

Spending on social events
When it came to spending on socializing like eating out or going to a bar or club, the estimated average amount Gen Z spent was $166.75 per month, or just over $2,000 per year.

Shopping for clothes, cosmetics and gadgets
Survey respondents were asked how much money they typically spend on shopping for clothes, cosmetics, gadgets and similar items each month. The estimated average amount Gen Z spent on these items was $178.11 per month.

Spending on pets
A 2022 survey found that Gen Z spends an average of $1,885 ($157.08 per month) on their pets every year. This is more than every other generation surveyed. (AAHA)

That comes in at a ball-park figure just shy of $700/month when added up.

But who is to say how representative those numbers are of the daily reality of some. Keeping in mind that this would include people at all levels of the income ladder; including those much higher up. To move forward thinking "millenials spend $700/month on all of this" seems at bit presumptuous.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 30, 2025

BCP1928 said:
It's encouraging that they would exhibit that level of moral compass in the face of a tough job market.

Being unable to work with/for someone who voted for the other political party isn't what I would call "moral", it'd be more inclined to call it "unrealistically picky"

Unless it's a job that's asking them to compromise one of their personal morals (like the example I gave of a vegan not wanting to work at a steakhouse, or an anti-gun person not wanting to get a marketing job for Glock), then the morality aspect isn't really coming into play.

However, if the task is one they would gladly do for one company that had a Democratic party person as the director, but they'd refuse to perform the same task for a Republican person who's the department director, then that's not a "morals" thing.

BCP1928 said:
Good for them.

If they want to be contentious objectors, should they be able to collect any benefits, or should it be more of a "well, you had the opportunity to land a gig, but passed on it, so the cost of that is you're on your own until you find something"

BCP1928 said:
So what? What percentage of them are MAGAcrats who bring their politics and their religion to work?

I don't know if that's going to be quantifiable. In my experience though, the higher-up corporate types keep it someone close to the vest and avoid that kind of stuff at work. The stats that WaPo procured for their article mentioned that the data was derived from looking at the S&P companies upper management records, and cross-referencing it against public voter registration information. Not because some Sr. VP of Finance showed up one day with a MAGA hat to the company picnic.

BCP1928 said:
What social contract? What is it that they can't change? Who says so?

Programs like unemployment, welfare, Medicaid, social security....

They're all based on the concept of a social contract.

Meaning, if someone loses their job, or gets older and it's time to retire, those of us who are able to work chip in to those programs, with the understanding that someday, we'll likely be in one of those situations, and then the younger generation that's able to work will do the same for us.

BCP1928 said:
I don't see what point you are trying to make here. Maybe a coherent sentence would help.

If they're saying, "we'd rather not work than work for a republican"...that's basically saying "You better start being a democrat, otherwise you won't have a workforce".

How else would one interpret that?

ThatRobGuy · Apr 30, 2025

rambot said:
But who is to say how representative those numbers are of the daily reality of some. Keeping in mind that this would include people at all levels of the income ladder; including those much higher up. To move forward thinking "millenials spend $700/month on all of this" seems at bit presumptuous.

I'm assuming that's why they went with the average.
(although, they did get a little more granular with the pie charts in the article I linked)

BCP1928 · Apr 30, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
Being unable to work with/for someone who voted for the other political party isn't what I would call "moral", it'd be more inclined to call it "unrealistically picky"

Unless it's a job that's asking them to compromise one of their personal morals (like the example I gave of a vegan not wanting to work at a steakhouse, or an anti-gun person not wanting to get a marketing job for Glock), then the morality aspect isn't really coming into play.

However, if the task is one they would gladly do for one company that had a Democratic party person as the director, but they'd refuse to perform the same task for a Republican person who's the department director, then that's not a "morals" thing.

If they want to be contentious objectors, should they be able to collect any benefits, or should it be more of a "well, you had the opportunity to land a gig, but passed on it, so the cost of that is you're on your own until you find something"

I don't know if that's going to be quantifiable. In my experience though, the higher-up corporate types keep it someone close to the vest and avoid that kind of stuff at work. The stats that WaPo procured for their article mentioned that the data was derived from looking at the S&P companies upper management records, and cross-referencing it against public voter registration information. Not because some Sr. VP of Finance showed up one day with a MAGA hat to the company picnic.

Programs like unemployment, welfare, Medicaid, social security....

They're all based on the concept of a social contract.

Meaning, if someone loses their job, or gets older and it's time to retire, those of us who are able to work chip in to those programs, with the understanding that someday, we'll likely be in one of those situations, and then the younger generation that's able to work will do the same for us.

You actually have to work and pay into the system to get Social Security. the size of your benefit depends on how much you work.

ThatRobGuy said:
If they're saying, "we'd rather not work than work for a republican"...that's basically saying "You better start being a democrat, otherwise you won't have a workforce".

How else would one interpret that?

As the free market in action. If a Republican boss wants to create a "Republican" moral environment at work then he has to face the fact that some people won't work for him under those conditions.

rambot · Apr 30, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
If they're saying, "we'd rather not work than work for a republican"...that's basically saying "You better start being a democrat, otherwise you won't have a workforce".

How else would one interpret that?

Might I say it's wildly inappropriate for any "boss" to be discussing/pressuring their political leanings onto their employees. I have seen MANY stories in the left wing internetosphere of that exact thing.

I wouldn't be committed to any boss who does anything like that because frankly, I very much doubt they would be committed to me if they knew my leanings.

Perpetual Student · Apr 30, 2025

Laodicean60 said:
I remember this from my textbooks, but if it's not a monkey, then I stand corrected.

View attachment 363946

A very outdated ad oversimplified summary.
A more accurate summary would be

This goes from linear to multiple branching.

Have a nice day.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 30, 2025

rambot said:
Might I say it's wildly inappropriate for any "boss" to be discussing/pressuring their political leanings onto their employees. I have seen MANY stories in the left wing internetosphere of that exact thing.

I wouldn't be committed to any boss who does anything like that because frankly, I very much doubt they would be committed to me if they knew my leanings.

Correct, absent working for RNC/DNC/Lobbying-Advocacy org...there really shouldn't be any political chatter in the workplace (unless people want to deal with HR headaches all day), but the data I cited didn't mention anything of the behaviors of the actual bosses at work, only that 40% of Gen Zs wouldn't work for an organization that has a leadership team that's comprised of people of the opposing political party.

It should also be noted, that Gen Z's don't want companies to leave politics out of it (which, if I'm understanding you, would be your position - keep the political jibber jabber out of the office). As it turns out, Gen Z seems to want quite the opposite.

80 Percent Of Gen Z Adults Want Companies To Take a Stand

AUSTIN, Texas - Companies are increasingly taking a public stance on social issues, but what should they take a stand on and how should they make their

mitechnews.com

80% want the bosses to engage in public statements and political posturing, they just want them to be doing it in their favor.

Time Magazine did a piece called "Why Corporations can no longer avoid politics" that covers a lot of aspect of this. (in particular, the Gen Z social media aspect)

Basically, a younger generation demanding that every company "Pick a side" (when most companies were more than happy to keep politics out of it), and then trying to ruin them when they don't like the answer, is them stirring the pot, and not the other way around.

Pretend for a moment that'd you'd been running a completely apolitical business for 20 years with no issues. Let's call it "Rambot's Ice Cream". Not trying to get into politics, not trying to offend or put-off half of the public. Just simply trying to sell ice cream to anyone who wants a cool treat on a hot day.

If "John Doe" shows up with a bunch of people and says "You need to make a statement on <polarizing issue XYZ>... keeping in mind, if you answer in a way that we don't like, or decline to answer at all, we'll start an online outrage movement that will culminate in a bunch of your employees quitting, and a quarter of the public boycotting your business"

That would be John Doe stirring the pot and making trouble where it didn't need to be, yes?

rambot · Apr 30, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
Correct, absent working for RNC/DNC/Lobbying-Advocacy org...there really shouldn't be any political chatter in the workplace (unless people want to deal with HR headaches all day), but the data I cited didn't mention anything of the behaviors of the actual bosses at work, only that 40% of Gen Zs wouldn't work for an organization that has a leadership team that's comprised of people of the opposing political party.

It should also be noted, that Gen Z's don't want companies to leave politics out of it (which, if I'm understanding you, would be your position - keep the political jibber jabber out of the office). As it turns out, Gen Z seems to want quite the opposite.

80 Percent Of Gen Z Adults Want Companies To Take a Stand

AUSTIN, Texas - Companies are increasingly taking a public stance on social issues, but what should they take a stand on and how should they make their

mitechnews.com

80% want the bosses to engage in public statements and political posturing, they just want them to be doing it in their favor.

I think that is dumb.

rjs330 · Apr 30, 2025

BCP1928 said:
And who gets to decide what is OK for a person to want?

We all want. We always don't get what we want. It's part of life.

rjs330 · Apr 30, 2025

Belk said:
We don't get to turn down work because it does not align with our moral beliefs? Guess someone better tell those wedding cake bakers.

Of course we do. But then we also may not get to eat or have a place to live. Our personal beliefs only go so far as out empty bellies or sleeping on the sidewalk.
Suddenly working for a republican voter isn't so bad.

BCP1928 · Apr 30, 2025

rjs330 said:
We all want. We always don't get what we want. It's part of life.

The question is, who decides what we want and who decides what we're going to get? It sounds like you think the employer decides and the employee can take it or leave it. Rob seems to think that "leaving it" is somehow immoral.

Trump threatens Harvard's tax-exempt status after freezing $2bn funding, demands apology

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