Is poverty and a bad economy a sign from heaven that God is displeased with a nation?

I think if any nation follows Biblical principles, that nation will end up being (economically) successful.

Xeno.of.athens said:

How does God express his views in a democratic nation?

Is poverty and a bad economy a sign from heaven that God is displeased with a nation?

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Most often, yes. But there are times when God allows bullies to dominate smaller nations.

Xeno.of.athens said:

How does God express his views in a democratic nation?

Is poverty and a bad economy a sign from heaven that God is displeased with a nation?

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I don't believe God has National Covenants nor indeed much of an interest in these nations.

Isaiah 40:17 Before him all the nations are as nothing; they are regarded by him as worthless and less than nothing.

God Bless You

I have a firm belief that God has a bias towards the poor. God favours those are rich in good works rather than the accumulation of financial resources.

Xeno.of.athens said:

How does God express his views in a democratic nation?

Is poverty and a bad economy a sign from heaven that God is displeased with a nation?

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No.

All Becomes New said:

I think if any nation follows Biblical principles, that nation will end up being (economically) successful.

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By that logic Switerland, Scandinavia (especially Sweden), the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Japan should be impoverished, and Spain, Portugal, France, Italy and especially Eastern Europe, and also various predominantly Christian countries in Africa like Ghana, South Sudan and Ethiopia, where the people are extremely devout by any standard, should be flush with cash. Things are improving in Ghana and Ethiopia, but South Sudan and several other Christian countries in Africa are literal warzones.

The Liturgist said:

By that logic Switerland, Scandinavia (especially Sweden), the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Japan should be impoverished, and Spain, Portugal, France, Italy and especially Eastern Europe, and also various predominantly Christian countries in Africa like Ghana, South Sudan and Ethiopia, where the people are extremely devout by any standard, should be flush with cash. Things are improving in Ghana and Ethiopia, but South Sudan and several other Christian countries in Africa are literal warzones.

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I didn't say it works both ways. You are reversing it and thinking it still works. That is nowhere in scripture.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Is poverty and a bad economy a sign from heaven that God is displeased with a nation?

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They are signs of selfishness and poor management.

How would you even want to measure the wealth of nations? And would you include also immaterial things like happiness, social relations, safety nets, social mobility, good weather, safety etc? It can get quite complex quickly.

Xeno.of.athens said:

How does God express his views in a democratic nation?

Is poverty and a bad economy a sign from heaven that God is displeased with a nation?

Click to expand...

I don't think we should try to divine God's will and mind based on the temporal circumstances we find ourselves in.

We can, however, know God's will by what He Himself has said already. Which is why the Church can, rightfully, speak truth to power when the magistrates are unjust in their treatment of the poor and the needy.

-CryptoLutheran

Xeno.of.athens said:

How does God express his views in a democratic nation?

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Views?

Xeno.of.athens said:

Is poverty and a bad economy a sign from heaven that God is displeased with a nation?

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No, it's a sign of natural consequences.

Clare73 said:

Views?

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I LOL'd. Not at you. I get what you mean. I just found it funny.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Is poverty and a bad economy a sign from heaven that God is displeased with a nation?

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Jesus said,
"For the poor you have with you always,..." John 12:8 NKJV

Xeno.of.athens said:

How does God express his views in a democratic nation?

Is poverty and a bad economy a sign from heaven that God is displeased with a nation?

Click to expand...

I think poverty, sickness, oppression, darkness, sin, and death are the default "normal" conditions of a fallen world. All blessings, life, prosperity, health, deliverance, light, and justice are evidence of a loving God. Without the blessings of God, life would be horrific and suffering all day, every day.

James 1:17 KJV
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

I think people see it the wrong way around. It is not a case where God sends evil upon a sinning world; instead, God blesses the unrighteous with the righteous. So I tell people not to take health, prosperity, and happiness as signs of God's approval. Realize that He blesses the righteous and unrighteous alike.
I believe that for the last 3 decades, God has held back nature's wrath upon a nation that sickened it. Nature wants to cast out the wicked from the earth, which is making it sick. God is preventing that from happening. However, I believe that is changing. An unrepentant nation will no longer have the protective hand of God. Buckle up. You are about to experience the "normal" of a fallen world.

All Becomes New said:

I didn't say it works both ways. You are reversing it and thinking it still works. That is nowhere in scripture.

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Than why is it that the godliest countries I am aware of are in all cases terribly impoverished? And in the case of Armenia, on the risk of being killed en masse by the Azeris in a second genocide?

The Liturgist said:

Than why is it that the godliest countries I am aware of are in all cases terribly impoverished? And in the case of Armenia, on the risk of being killed en masse by the Azeris in a second genocide?

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What are some of the godliest countries, in your opinion? And do their governments follow Biblical principles?

All Becomes New said:

What are some of the godliest countries, in your opinion? And do their governments follow Biblical principles?

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Ghana, Ethiopia, Armenia, Cyprus, and some Eastern European countries (unfortunately not the Baltic States).

I don’t believe any government follows Biblical principles except for that of the autonomous peninsula, Mount Athos, which is controlled by the Orthodox monasteries thereupon, with admission requiring what amounts to a visa from the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (who himself does not rule Mount Athos, thankfully, but the monasteries are under his omophorion).

The Liturgist said:

Ghana, Ethiopia, Armenia, Cyprus, and some Eastern European countries (unfortunately not the Baltic States).

I don’t believe any government follows Biblical principles except for that of the autonomous peninsula, Mount Athos, which is controlled by the Orthodox monasteries thereupon, with admission requiring what amounts to a visa from the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (who himself does not rule Mount Athos, thankfully, but the monasteries are under his omophorion).

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I think you are still thinking of the people who live there and not the government setup.

All Becomes New said:

I think you are still thinking of the people who live there and not the government setup.

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Not in the case of Mount Athos.

But regarding the government setup, what do you think is needed for a government to be run on Biblical principles?

I’m pretty sure the Empire of Ethiopia under St. Haile Selassie was being run under Biblical principles and his country during his tenure suffered from crushing poverty, an invasion and occupation by fascist italy, and then in 1973 a communist coup which resulted in the Emperor receiving the crown of martyrdom when he refused to renounce his faith in Orthodox Christianity and embrace Marxist-Leninist Thought (some monarchs did embrace communism and saved themselves, notably some Asian rulers).

Also I would note that your argument is kind of a red herring in that the OP referred to “a nation” and semantically, the term nation is normally used in a manner synonymous with the Greek word “Demos”, referring to a people, and not necessarily their government, and indeed your reply talked about a nation and said nothing about its government.

If the people of a nation are solidly moral but are impoverished owing to an immoral regime, as was the case of the Romans (the Christians of the former Eastern Roman Empire) during Turkocratia, or the Ethiopians under the Derg, or at present the Orthodox Christian majority in a certain country in Northeastern Europe which shall go unnamed, in my mind this disproves the idea that God will definitely reward piety with material prosperity.

Also as @ViaCrucis points out, God seems to be sympathetic towards the poor, although Christ has said that through God, even the rich can be saved (and indeed, since all poverty is relative; I am not a wealthy man, although I was reasonably wealthy at some points in my life, but lately due to illness cash has been tight, but I am very well off compared to the very happy Christian people of a fishing village I visited in Ghana called Small London, which was so impoverished that many of the children were without clothes, but the people were happy and devoid of avaricious resentment. They lived freely according to the traditions of their people and were free from chronic diseases that affect many along the banks of the Volta such as river blindness and Bilharzia.