Spanish Inquisiton

The Liturgist said:

The Albigensians were not Protestants, they were adherents of a dualist theology based on salvation through secret knowledge which most Protestants would regard as heretical, and which would not be considered Christian on CF.Com.

Thomas M’Crie was an 18th-early 19th century Presbyterian minister who lacked either a direct personal connection to the events in Spain or the credentials of an impartial historian - no scholar of Ecclesiastical history at any major institute of higher learning in the 21st century regards M’Crie as an authoritative source of information on the religious history of a Spain.

So whereas we can say, owing to their later connections with the Calvinists in Geneva, that the Waldensians were at least somewhat like modern Protestants, although their beliefs and history are obscure, in the case of the Albigensians we can more definitely say what they believed and did not believe, and the attempt by Landmark Baptists and Adventists and others to enlist the Albigensians as historical proto-Protestants is not historically credible.

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The following quotes are from the above link.

Thomas M'Crie (sometimes known as Thomas McCree or Maccrae) (November 1772 – 5 August 1835) was a Scottish biographer and ecclesiastical historian, writer, and preacher born in the town of Duns, and educated at the University of Edinburgh. He became the leading minister of the Original Secession Church (Auld Licht Anti-Burgher). His work: "Life of Knox" (1813) was a means of vindicating the Scottish reformer John Knox who was an unpopular figure at the time. It was followed by a "Life of Andrew Melville" (1819). Melville was Knox's successor as the leader of the Reformers in Scotland. M'Crie also published histories of the Reformation in Italy and Spain. He received an honorary degree of D.D. in 1813, the first Secession minister to receive such an award...............

Church historian​

McCrie was drawn by this conflict about the first principles of ecclesiastical theory to a thorough and searching study of Scottish church history, in its organic connection with the national life, and with the general development of protestant civilisation. The first fruit of his labour was the life of Knox, finished in November 1811, Its breadth of treatment was something new in ecclesiastical biography. It effected a revolution in the public estimate of its subject, akin to that achieved by Carlyle's'Cromwell,' though by different means. His biography of Melville (November 1819) pursues the theme of the Scottish national career under the influence of the Reformation. The post-Reformation church history of Scotland he did not treat with the same fulness: his life of Alexander Henderson, in the 'Christian Instructor,' vol. x., is little more than a personal sketch. Later he broke new ground in his histories of the Italian (1827) and Spanish (1829) movements of evangelical and free opinion at the era of the Reformation; which nothing is more admirable than the fairness of his dealing with schools of thought very different from his own. It is to be lamented that he did not live to execute a projected life of Calvin. 'His literary genius,' says Professor Lorimer, "was neither wholly historical nor wholly biographical, but found congenial employment in biographical history or historical biography, buying equal delight in the personal traits and minute facts appropriate to the one, and in the broad views and profound principles characteristic of the other. It is not often that biographers make good historians, or that historians are equally great in biography, but be was equally great in both" (Imperial Dict. of Biog. pt. xiii. p. 265).......

Divinity professor​

On 3 February 1813 the Edinburgh University made him D.D., a degree often conferred on English nonconformists, but never before on a Scottish dissenter. After the death of Bruce, in 1816, McCrie acted till 1818 as his successor in the chair of divinity. Coincident with his entrance on this office, he published in the 'Christian Instructor' (January-March 1817) a powerful critique on Sir Walter Scott's representations of the covenanters (in Old Mortality), in which he proved himself a better antiquary than the great novelist (Scott, Journal, ii. 404 n.). Subsequently he published, either separately in magazines, a number of biographies and reviews of biographies, chiefly Scottish.

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We all have our opinions of course, concerning who or what is a reputable source. Usually based upon our religious affiliation regarding who can be trusted and who cannot. Revisionist history is very real, and it is of course important to figure out just exactly who is perpetrating this crime upon and against humanity. In the end, God will of course reveal all, and punish intentional deception.

The Liturgist said:

The Albigensians were not Protestants, they were adherents of a dualist theology based on salvation through secret knowledge which most Protestants would regard as heretical, and which would not be considered Christian on CF.Com.

Thomas M’Crie was an 18th-early 19th century Presbyterian minister who lacked either a direct personal connection to the events in Spain or the credentials of an impartial historian - no scholar of Ecclesiastical history at any major institute of higher learning in the 21st century regards M’Crie as an authoritative source of information on the religious history of a Spain.

So whereas we can say, owing to their later connections with the Calvinists in Geneva, that the Waldensians were at least somewhat like modern Protestants, although their beliefs and history are obscure, in the case of the Albigensians we can more definitely say what they believed and did not believe, and the attempt by Landmark Baptists and Adventists and others to enlist the Albigensians as historical proto-Protestants is not historically credible.

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REMARKS UPON THE ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT CHURCHES OF
THE ALBIGENSES
by Peter Allix D.D

295
Let the Bishop of Meaux then, if he please, think the Protestants might be ashamed to go and look for their ancestors among the Waldenses, and to hunt for them in the caverns of the Alps. His declamations shall never be able to make us forego a jot of that tender veneration and respect we have most justly conceived for this nursery and seed-plot of martyrs, and for those triumphant troops, who have so generously lavished away their blood in the defence of truth, against all the efforts, all the machinations, and all the violences of the Romish party. The judgment of St. Hilarius, expressed in his writing against Auxentius, may be sufficient to arm us against all the cavils of those who will needs have, that it was impossible that ever their Church should lose its purity, or that the same should be preserved by these Churches, reduced to caverns and mountains. Unum moneo, cavete Antichristum. Male enim vos parietum amor coepit, male ecclesiam Dei in tectis aedificiisque veneramini; male sub his pacem ingeritis. Anne ambiguum est in his antichristum sessurum? Montes mihi et sylvae et lacus et carceres et voragines sunt tutiores; in his enim Prophetae aut manentes, aut demersi Dei spiritu prophetabant, p. 316. Oper. Hilarii. “One thing I must warn you of, beware of Antichrist. It is ill done of you to fall in love with walls; it is ill done of you to reverence the church of God in buildings and edifices; you do ill to rest in these things. Or, can you question, that it is on these Antichrist will fix his throne? Give me mountains, forests, pits, and prisons, as being far the safer places; for in these it was that the Prophets prophesied from the spirit of GOD.”
Scriptum Inquisitoris cujuspiam anonymi de Valdensibus, ex codice
MS. G. in publica Bibliotheca Cantabrig.

357
Lastly, He, (ST. Hilary, Bishop of Poictiers, 4th century) was so far from believing that the Antichrist, whereof St. John speaks, was already come, that he maintains that he would be revealed in the Churches that were then possessed by the Arians, and that the faith being thus attacked, the true believers would be forced to look out for shelter amongst the mountains in woods and caves, leaving the Antichrist master of the public places consecrated to the worship of God.

456
We have the fourth canon of the Council of Tours in the year 1163, which declares the antiquity of this pretended heresy in Gascoin and the country about Tholouse, and speaks of their meetings, which the title of the canon justly refers to the Albigenses, in these words;

“In the country about Tholouse, there sprung up long ago a damnable heresy, which by little and little, like a cancer, spreading itself to the neighboring places in Gascoin, hath already infected many other provinces; which, whilst, like a serpent, it hid itself in its own windings and twinings, crept on more secretly, and threatened more danger to the simple and unwary. Wherefore we do command all Bishops and Priests, dwelling in these parts, to keep a watchful eye upon these heretics, and, under the pain of excommunication, to forbid all persons, as soon as these heretics are discovered, from presuming to afford them any abode in their country, or to lend them any assistance, or to entertain any commerce with them in buying or selling; that so at least, by the loss of the advantages of human society, they may be compelled to repent of the error of their life. And if any prince, making himself partaker of their iniquity, shall endeavor to oppose these decrees, let him be struck with the same anathema. And if they shall be seized by any Catholic princes, and cast into prison, let them be punished by confiscation of all their goods: and because they frequently come together from divers parts into one hiding-place; and because they have no other ground for their dwelling together, save only their agreement and consent in error; therefore we will,
that such their conventicles be both diligently searched after, and when they are found, that they be examined according to canonical severity.”

571
CHAPTER 25
That the doctrine of the Albigenses was propagated in Spain, and that it continued there till the Reformation.

WHATEVER persecutions have been exercised against the Albigenses by their enemies, yet we are not to think that they were ever utterly destroyed. We find that this persecution continued in a manner without interruption, until the time of the Reformation. Frison, a Divine of Paris, in the Life of Spondanus, Bishop of Pamiers, reports, that that Bishop found a Church of them in the Pyrenaean mountains, where they had found a safe retreat from the violence of their persecutors, and where they lived apart by themselves.


A GENERAL HISTORY OF THE BAPTIST DENOMINATION
VOLUME 1
by David Benedict

33
The Euchites among the Greeks were similar to the Waldenses or Waldensians among the Romans. The terms, Waldenses, Valenses or Vadois (all of the same import) signify the people of the valleys, and were applied in early times to those, who, tired of tyranny, pomp, and oppression, retired to obscure retreats where they might enjoy gospel purity and religious freedom. And in the end, all of their sentiments, and many who were not, were called Waldenses, whether they dwelt in rallies or on mountains, in cities or in caves: Just as a sect of christians are called Moravians, whether they dwell in Moravia, in England, in Greenland, or the West-India Islands. And the terms Euchites and Waldenses answered to that of Non-conformist in England, which every reader will understand.

100
Dr. Allix, in his history of the churches of Piedmont, gives this account of the origin of the Waldenses: That for three hundred years or more, the bishop of Rome attempted to subjugate the church of Milan under his jurisdiction; and at last the interest of Rome grew too potent for the church of Milan, planted by one of the disciples; insomuch, that the bishop and the people, rather than own their jurisdiction, retired to the rallies of Lucern and Angrogne; and thence were called Vallerises, Wallenses, or the People of the Valleys.

President Edwards, as quoted by Mr. Merrill in his Miniature History of the Baptists, has the following observations respecting these ancient witnesses for the truth: “It is supposed that these people first betook themselves to this desert, secret place among the mountains, to hide themselves from the severity of the heathen persecutions, which were before Constantine the great, and thus the woman fled into the wilderness from the face of the serpent, as related in Revelation.” etc.

142&143
At one time, four hundred poor men, who had lived in the mountains for the sake of enjoying religious liberty, came down with their wives and children to Prague, and committed themselves to Ziska. It is highly probable that these were Waldenses, or Picards, the descendants of those who had come and settled in remote parts of the kingdom, more man two hundred and fifty years before, for even then in the reign of Frederick Barbarossa, Bohemia was accounted the sink of all heresies.


THE HISTORY OF THE, ANCIENT VALLENSES AND ALBIGENSES
by George Stanley Faber

148
But it is scarcely probable, that men would leave their homes, the fair and warm and fertile country of Italy, for the wildness of desolate mountains and for the squalidity of neglected valleys; valleys, which would require all

149
the severe labor of assiduous cultivation; and mountains, which no labor could make productive: unless some very paramount and overbearing cause had constrained them to undertake such an emigration. Now a cause, precisely of this description, we have in the persecutions, which, during the second and third and fourth centuries, occurred under the Emperors Marcus Aurelius and Maximin and Decius and Valerian and Diocletian.

Therefore, both from the philological necessity of their language, and from the tenacity with which they have always maintained their primeval religion, we can scarcely doubt, that the Christians, who fled from persecution during those centuries, were the true ancestors of the Vaudois.

The Vaudois are, in fact, descended from those refugees from Italy who, after St. Paul had there preached the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country; and fled, like the
woman mentioned in the Apocalypse, to these wild mountains, where they have, to this day, handed down the Gospel, from father to son, in the same purity and simplicity as it was preached by St. Paul.

213
With this view of the matter, their own language perfectly corresponds. Ever prophesying in sackcloth, and driven by brutal persecution to take refuge in dens and caves of the earth, the confession of their deputation to Ecolampadius, in the year 1530, bespeaks, I think, on the part of the Vallenses, rather a want of regular education, than any theological or biblical ignorance in the strict and proper sense of the expression.

283
In fact, they were almost irresistibly led to apply the prophecy to themselves. The Vaudois, says Henri Arnaud, are descended from those refugees from Italy, who, after St. Paul had there preached the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country, and fled, like the woman mentioned in the Apocalypse, to these wild mountains, where they have to this day handed down the Gospel, from father to son, in the same purity and simplicity as it was preached by St. Paul. Preface to the Glorious Recovery, p. 14.

379
The wisdom of God works not miraculously, when the natural operation of second causes may serve as the substratum of his high purposes. Seclusion within a mountainous district has a physical tendency to preclude change and innovation. Opinions and practices are handed down from father to son: and, until an intercourse is opened with the lower world at their feet, one generation is but the faithful reflection of another. Hence, in the course of God’s providence, the alpine mountains and valleys were selected as the retreat, where, unchanged from the first ages, pure Christianity was to be preserved.

THE HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH
VOL. 1
by William Jones

3
The gates of hell never prevailed against it. God reserved myriads to himself who would not bow the knee to the Pope of Rome—who would not become his slaves and receive his mark upon their foreheads and in their hands. The papal church reeled intoxicated with their blood, but she never subdued them. They were horribly persecuted, and driven into the caves and dens of the earth, but they were never conquered. In the recesses of the wilderness and in the clefts of the mountains, they worshipped God in spirit and in truth, uncontaminated by surrounding corruptions and unterrified by the frowns of power.

394
Angrogna, Pramol, and S. Martino are strongly fortified by nature on account of their many difficult passes and bulwarks of rocks and mountains; as if the all wise Creator, says Sir Samuel Motland,2 had, from the beginning, designed that place as a cabinet, wherein to put some inestimable jewel, or in which to reserve many thousand souls, which should not bow the knee before Baal.

HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS
by Jean Paul Perrin

Introduction 18
In reviewing their social organization, two characters impress us with great interest — the antiquity of their origin, and the uniformity of their faith. Without controversy their churches can be traced in an uninterrupted succession during a thousand years; and that they existed in their evangelical doctrines, spiritual worship, fraternal communion, and abhorrence of antichristian superstitions, for nearly two centuries


19
previous, is a fact attested even by their most infuriated persecutors. One of the remarkable circumstances of modern times is this — that although those followers of Jesus were shut up among the small and most inaccessible valleys of the highest mountains, almost “alike unknowing and unknown,” and not only accounted but persecuted as monsters in human appearance, whom all potentates, secular and ecclesiastical, combined to reproach and destroy, yet their virtues could not be concealed, and their churches could not be exterminated.

FACTS OF FAITH
by Christian Edwardson

107
The majority of these original Christians settled, however, in the Alps, a place naturally suited for their protection, being situated where Switzerland, France, and Italy join. They could, therefore, more easily get protection in one or another of these countries, as it would be harder for the Papacy to get joint action of all these countries in case of persecution. Then, too, these mountains were so steep and high, the valleys so narrow, and the passes into them so difficult, that it would seem as though God had prepared this hiding place for His true church and truth during the Dark Ages.

Sophia V. Bompiani, in “A Short History of the Italian Waldenses” (New York: 1897), quotes from several unquestionable authorities to show that the Waldenses, after having withdrawn to the Alps because of persecution, fully separated from the Roman church under the work of Vigilantius Leo, the Leonist of Lyons, who vigorously protested against the many false doctrines and practices that had been adopted by the Church. Jerome (A. D. 403-406) wrote a very cutting book against him in which he says:

114&115
Eternity alone will reveal how many precious manuscripts have been destroyed by Rome in its effort to blot out all traces of apostolic Christianity.

We have now seen that the ancient apostolic church, scattered by persecution, and often in hiding, went under various names. Being peaceful, virtuous, and industrious citizens, they were tolerated, or even shielded, by princes who understood their value to the country, while the Catholic Church hunted them down like wild beasts. After the Waldenses and Albigenses had lived quietly in France for many years, Pope Innocent

III wrote the following instruction to his bishops:

“Therefore by this present apostolical writing we give you a strict command that, by whatever means you can, you destroy all these heresies and expel from your diocese all who are pol-Iuted with them. You shall exercise the rigor of the ecclesiastical power against them and all those who have made themselves suspected by associating with them. They may not appeal from your judgments, and if necessary, you may cause the princes and people to suppress them with the sword”
”A Source Book for Medierval History,” Oliver J. Thatcher and E. H. McNeal, p. 210. New york: Charles Scibner’s Sons, 1905.

Amo2 said:

We all have our opinions of course, concerning who or what is a reputable source.

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In general one can discount those which exaggerate Roman Catholic misdeed while brushing under the rug Protestant transgressions.

I say this as a a former Protestant, now Orthodox Christian whose church was never under Roman Catholic control and which never experienced a reformation, and am thus a neutral party.

The fact is that much of the material you are quoting from is not regarded as reputable by most Protestant scholars.

Sometimes Roman Catholics will post equally suspect material which most Catholic scholars reject in an attempt to try to claim the Orthodox at one time accepted Papal supremacy or were under the control of the Pope or to try brush off Roman Catholic transgressions, and I routinely call them out for such conduct.

As Christians, since we worship the Truth, in the person of our risen savior and God, Jesus Christ, we have a responsibility to defend the Truth and to reject the propagation of historical falsehoods, particularly when these can be used to fuel religious discrimination against particular Christian denominations.

Interesting. When I went to edit my reply to you, it was deleted instead. Perhaps a case of censorship regarding a post about censorship and revisionist history.

Instead of rewriting that reply, I will just share some history with you regarding real censorship and revisionist history, when time affords. If I am not banned or censored for attempting to do so in any case.

boughtwithaprice said:

The misdirection of the reference to the Waldenses is in their Sabat, which references wooden sandles. SDA apologists have tried to tell me that they were sabbath keepers and a prefiguring of SDA beliefs. That is not true, they were wooden sandal wearers not sabbath keepers.
Today I think the waldenses have become part of the Methodist community in some form, they did not join a sabbath keeping sect

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Indeed, you are entirely correct on both counts. The Waldensians are the largest Protestant church in Italy. And before their current affiliation with the Methodists they had affiliated with the Calvinists in Zurich, and there are Vaudois (Waldensians) in the US who are members of the PCUSA, in the Carolinas if I recall.

boughtwithaprice said:

The Albigenses were opposed to God, as they called His creation evil, and only Spirit is good.
This is the same thinking as Satan. He would not obey God and serve the material which God called very good. They would be akin to the luciferian sects we have today, such as the Freemasons. It’s the same lie Satan told to Eve, you will be as gods knowing good and evil, thereby completely robbing a soul of all humility towards God

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Indeed, Albigensianism was closely related to the Bogomils, the Paulicans, the Valentinians and the Manichaeans, among other heretical sects, and we know much about what these groups believe, because we have either their original writings in manuscript form or in quotation as well as other actual archeological evidence beyond the opinions of fringe scholars.

By the way @boughtwithaprice Christ is Risen!

Joseph Martin McCabe (12 November 1867 – 10 January 1955) was an English writer and speaker on freethought, after having been a Roman Catholic priest earlier in his life. He was "one of the great mouthpieces of freethought in England".[1] Becoming a critic of the Catholic Church, McCabe joined groups such as the Rationalist Association and the National Secular Society. He criticised Christianity from a rationalist perspective, but also was involved in the South Place Ethical Society which grew out of dissenting Protestantism and was a precursor of modern secular humanism.

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See section 2, The Church of Rome Today, Chapter 1, Catholic Scholarship

Understand that this book is old now. Roman Catholic revisionist history has spread far and wide since the days in which this book was written. The last paragraph of the chapter referenced above, speaks of this revisionist history being applied to the Encyclopedia Britannica and the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics as well. More about this later.

The above site has a bit about Joseph McCabe, and some chapters from his book Lies and Fallacies of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

The book may also be viewed at -

See Chapter 25 Making America Catholic.

The next few posts will be from this chapter.

25. Making America Catholic

THE Roman hierarchy knew that the older Protestants, who had read about the persecutions of the Dark Ages, and who knew some of the inside workings of the papal church, would never become Catholics. Rome's hope lay in capturing the younger generation. If the Papacy could cover up those dark pages of its history, when it waded in the blood of martyrs, and could appear in the beautiful modern dress of a real champion for liberty, as a lover of science, art, and education, it would appeal to the American youth, and the battle would be won.

The Jesuits, who through years of experience in Europe, have become experts in moulding young minds, are now establishing schools everywhere, that are patronised by thousands of Protestant youth. They have also undertaken the delicate task of Romanising the textbooks of our public schools, and books of reference, in order to cover up their past, and to whitewash the Dark Ages. That Romanists desire to cover up their past record of bloody persecution is acknowledged by that honourable Roman Catholic author, Alfred Baudrillart, Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris. After giving a frank statement of the many persecutions of which his church is guilty, he says in the words of Mgr. d'Hulst:

"'Indeed, even among our friends and our brothers we find those who dare not look this problem in the face. They ask permission from the Church to ignore or even to deny all those facts and institutions in the past which have made orthodoxy compulsory."' - "The Catholic Church; the Renaissance and Protestantism," Alfred Archeveque Cardinal Baudrillart, pp. 183, 184.

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Making America Catholic chapter 25 continued.

Romanizing Textbooks

In the first place, all general histories used in our public schools and high schools had to be revised to eliminate every trace of the objectionable features from their pages. Plain historical facts of the Middle Ages, - such as the popes' interference with public government (as in the case of Henry IV, Emperor of Germany, A. D. 1077, and King John of England, A. D. 1213); the persecution of Waldenses, Albigenses, and Huguenots; the Inquisition; the sale of indulgences; and the Reformation, - all had to be eliminated or rewritten so as to exonerate the Papacy, and brand its opponents simply as political offenders and revolutionists, who suffered at the hand of the civil government, instead of being persecuted by the Church for their religion.

Such radical changes could never have been accomplished so quietly if Protestantism had not been asleep. At times it became necessary to create public sentiment against a certain textbook through newspaper articles written by some learned Catholic professor, and then pressure was brought to bear on school boards to eliminate it, substituting for it a Romanised book. Thus Swinton's "Outlines of History" was thrown out of the schools, and "Anderson's History" was black listed, but later revised according to Catholic wishes, and brought back to take the place of Swinton's. Myers's "Medieval and Modem History" was also censored. At first the author refused to change it, claiming "history is history," but later it was revised and came into quite general use for a time. Not all of this was done in the dark. As one example of protest we refer the reader to Senate Document on Public Hearing before the United States Committee on Education and Labor, Friday, February 15, 1889, and Friday, February 22, 1889, on "Senate Resolution No. 86.1 Proposing an Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States Respecting Establishment of Religion and Free Public Schools," which unmasks some of this work. We shall now point out two of the vital changes made in our textbooks:

(1) The Catholic Church will never acknowledge the Reformation of the sixteenth century as a reform, but brands it as a “revolt" against the authority of the pope, and as a "revolution." A sure earmark, therefore, of all Romanised textbooks is the fact that they never speak of the Reformation as a work of reform but as "the Protestant Revolt," "the Protestant Revolution," "the so-called Reformation," or "what is called the Reformation." Let any one look it up in the schoolbooks used by his children, and see for himself.

To give the readers who may not have seen the textbooks used in our schools today an idea of what the Protestant children are taught, we shall take the "History of Western Europe," by Professor J. H. Robinson, as an example. It has the following chapters on the Reformation of the sixteenth century: chapter 24, "Germany Before the Protestant Revolt"; chapter 25, "Martin Luther and His Revolt Against the Church"; chapter 26, "Course of the Protestant Revolt in Germany"; chapter 27, "The Protestant Revolt in Switzerland and England." Chapter 25 says: "As Luther became a confessed revolutionist, he began to find friends among other revolutionists and reformers." p. 393. Chapter 28 takes up the effort of the Catholics to destroy the Reformation by a counter-reform, by the work of the Jesuits, and the bloody persecution of Protestants in Spain, in the Netherlands, and France. This chapter is entitled. "The Catholic Reformation," and yet it comes the farthest from deserving the title of reformation of all the above-mentioned chapters. In these Romanised textbooks the historical facts of the Middle Ages are entirely reversed. The way the last-mentioned chapter extols the Jesuits shows who has put their stamp on the book. Senator Thomas E. Watson truthfully says:

"In the public schools the Catholics have stealthily introduced textbooks written by Jesuits, and your children are being taught that the Roman church was misunderstood in the past; that its doctrines are not fatal to humanity and gospel religion; that its record is not saturated with the blood of innocent millions, murdered by papal persecutors, and that there never was such a monstrosity as the alleged sale of papal pardons of sins.

"Educate youth in this Catholic way, and the consequences are logical." - "Roman Catholics in America Falsifying History and Poisoning the Minds of Protestant School Children," p. 5. Thompson, Ga.: 1928.

Sale Of Indulgences

Histories used in the public schools in the United States up to the year 1900 were opposed by the Roman Catholic Church on the ground that they were not stating the truth about "indulgences." These histories simply stated that Martin Luther began the Reformation by opposing Tetzel's sale of indulgences, which is a historical fact.

"An Introduction to the History of Western Europe," by Professor J. H. Robinson, says:

"It is a common mistake of Protestants to suppose that the indulgence was forgiveness granted beforehand for sins to be committed in the future. There is absolutely no foundation for this idea."- p. 391. Ginn and Co... 1903.

This statement is copied on page 311 in 'A General History of Europe," by Robinson, Breasted, and Smith, a textbook quite generally used of late. We shall leave it with the reader to judge whether such statements actually represent the Protestant conception of "indulgences," or whether they are part of a program to cover up historical facts; and we would respectfully ask: Are not American youth entitled to know the unvarnished facts of history?

The historical facts about "indulgences," gathered from unquestionable sources, are found on pages 162-172 of this book. It is here shown that the idea of "indulgences" had so degenerated between the eleventh and the sixteenth centuries, that they were actually sold for money. Tetzel's "Indulgences" read: 1 "absolve thee . . . from all thy sins, transgressions and excesses . . . and I restore thee . . . to that innocence and purity which thou possessed at baptism; so that, when thou diest, the gates of punishment shall be shut, and the gates of the paradise of delight shall be open." - Coxe's "House of Austria," Vol. I, p. 385. London: George Bell and Sons, 1906.

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Making America Catholic chapter 25 continued.

Revising Books Of Reference

The next step in the papal plan was to revise all books of reference, such as encyclopedias, dictionaries, and larger historical works, so as to mould the minds not only of pupils but also of teachers and of preachers. An example of this is seen in the revision of the New International Encyclopedia. The editor of the Catholic Mirror (at that time the official organ of Cardinal Gibbons), in a lengthy editorial, dated October 28, 1905, tells of how the publishers of that Encyclopedia cooperated with the Jesuits in revising it. He quoted the following letter from the Rev. Thomas J. Campbell, S. J., which he had just received:

“Dodd, Mead and Co. sent their representatives to us, and not only expressed a desire to avoid misstatements in their encyclopedia, but asked for some one to excise whatever might be offensive. . . . Mr. Conde B. Pallen took the matter in hand, and was afforded full liberty to revise and correct not only the topics which dealt professedly with Catholic subjects but those also which might have even an indirect bearing on them. . . . The firm has done all in its power to make it acceptable to Catholics.” - Quoted in "Liberty," Vol. V, No. 3, pp. 34, 35. Washington., D. C., 1910.

After this was done, every effort was made to get this New International Encyclopedia into the hands of all Protestant ministers in this country, who were unaware of its Romanised features. Its moulding influence was soon seen in the striking similarity in viewpoint (on many subjects) between the Roman theology and that of the Protestant pulpit and press, and this is becoming more so now after practically all encyclopedias have been Romanised. Even Webster's Dictionary has not been allowed to speak its old familiar truths any more. We read:

"Time was when complaint was common that injustice was done to the Catholics in 'Webster's Dictionary.' There is no room for such a thing in the new 'Webster's International Dictionary,' issued by G. and C. Merriam Co., Springfield, Mass., because Vicar-General Callaghan, of the diocese of Little Rock, has revised and edited everything appertaining to the church." - "Freeman's Journal" of New York, May 28,1892. Since then a Catholic official has been regularly connected with the editorial staff, whenever a new revision was made, as can be seen in the preface of later editions.

Suppose, in the next encyclopedia, we ask brewery officials to edit everything pertaining to temperance and the liquor question, and ask the officials of Wall Street to edit all that pertains to capital and labour, would we then get a more correct and unbiased representation of these subjects? We ask why, then, should Roman Catholic officials edit everything pertaining to the Protestant controversy with Rome?

At the First American Catholic Missionary Congress, held at Chicago, November 17,1908, Dr. William McGinnis outlined the program of the International Catholic Truth Society for making America Catholic: (1) by Romanising our schoolbooks, (2) by revising our books of reference, (3) by controlling the daily press, (4) by capturing the libraries. He said in part:

"A few years ago the publishers of an encyclopedia in twelve volumes entered the office of the Truth Society and said: 'We realise there are many misstatements and errors regarding things Catholic in this work, but we put the whole edition in your hands and will accept every correction you make and every addition which you wish to insert.' . . . So, likewise, one of the largest publishing houses of the United States, a house that supplies perhaps one third of the textbooks used in the public schools of America, asked that certain books might be examined and erroneous statements and unjust charges against the Church be corrected. . . . And we are happy to say that in practically every case these misrepresentations of the Church that otherwise would have gone into the minds of millions of children were courteously corrected by gentlemanly authors." - "The Two Great American Catholic Missionary Congresses," pp. 427, 428. Chicago: J. S. Hyland and Co., 1914.

Many Protestant parents would not send their children to Catholic parochial schools, but they will allow them to be taught the same thing from Romanised textbooks, without any protest! We ask, What made the afore-mentioned publishers so anxious to have the Catholics revise the public schoolbooks and encyclopedias, which they intended to publish? Why did they not go to some Protestant organisation to have the books revised? Was it because Protestants are not educated? Certainly not! But these publishers knew from experience, that, unless the books were Romanised, Catholic societies would stir up such opposition against their use, that it would result in financial loss to the publishers. Dr. McGinnis tells the secret when he relates how he had urged the Knights of Columbus to "wake up" and "form a committee," to examine the "histories of education in use in high schools and normal schools." He says: "The spirit of Knighthood was not dead in that Council, the subject was investigated, the book I had quoted from was the textbook of the class, and, after much discussion, it was removed from the curriculum of the school." - Id., pp. 423, 424.

Any one who will take the trouble to examine the textbooks used in our public schools before 1900, and compare them with those used after this Romanising propaganda began, will discover the fact that the Romanising features have been introduced gradually into a series of textbooks. The one taking the place of the other as fast as the public could assimilate the Catholic sentiments and phraseology, and the same is true regarding books of reference.

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Making America Catholic chapter 25 continued.

Muzzling The Public Press

Dr. McGinnis also spoke of their plans regarding the daily papers. He said: "We may consider briefly the program of the International Catholic Truth Society in reference to two great agencies in the formation of the minds and hearts of the great American people, - the press and the public libraries.

"Our daily press . . . moulds the thought and influences the will of the country . . . . We do demand that the great Catholic Church, in her saving doctrines and in her marvelous activities, should be brought more prominently before the American public." Id., p. 419.

Dr. McGinnis further stated that arrangements had been made with the Vatican for Catholic reporters all over the world to furnish material for the "Truth Society" to be used in the daily press, and then he says:

"With a membership of two or three thousand scholarly, zealous priests and laymen, and the headquarters of the Society acting as a clearing house, calumnies would not remain unanswered, misstatements of doctrines would be corrected." - Id., pp. 420,421.

"We realise, moreover, that refutations and corrections, valuable though they be, are not sufficient. We want to carry the campaign a little farther. We want to make of the press of this country a positive agency in the dissemination of Catholic ideas. . . . We are now furnishing on the first and third Sundays of each month one column or a column and a half of positive Catholic matter to daily papers. . . . But the 'Notes and Comments' . . . deal with such topics as the conversion of some distinguished scholar, the life work of a recently deceased Catholic who was eminent in the domain of physical science, archeological discoveries bearing upon Christian doctrine, important congresses abroad. . . . If the demands of our people prove that the new feature is appreciated, the 'service' will become weekly, and it will bring light and sympathy for things Catholic to many millions of readers." - Id., pp. 421, 422.

"The demands" must have proved successful, for instead of this "new feature" appearing weekly, articles and notes seem to appear almost daily. Though it is legitimate for religious denominations to make use of the public press, for them to muzzle the freedom of the press is not legitimate! When large religious organisations parade their great number of adherents and bring pressure to bear on the press, threatening non support if the other side appears in its columns, while they monopolise them with their own propaganda, such organisations lose the respect of thinking people.

Capturing The Public Libraries

At the before-mentioned Catholic Congress plans were also laid for making the public libraries agencies in their propaganda. Dr. McGinnis says:

"Another force, second only to the school and the press in shaping the thoughts of the nation, is the public library system of the United States. . . .I ask why, in the name of the God of truth, is the great Catholic Church excluded from the shelves of the public libraries of the United States? . . . Create a strong, legitimate demand for Catholic literature, and the public libraries will meet the demand." - Id., pp. 422, 423.

But how did that Congress propose to "create" this strong “demand” for Catholic books? Here is their scheme: They will supply their people with lists of books to be asked for at the libraries, and when several hundred or thousand people have called for the same books, it will create a demand.

"The demand for such literature must be brought to the public libraries. We wish to emphasise the fact that the demand must be made in good faith - the books are called for at the library because the man wants to read them. The International Catholic Truth Society will supply general and special lists of books, and the Spiritual Director . . . will . . . designate appropriate works for individual members. From this widespread bona fide demand for Catholic works at public libraries three results will follow. [It will help the members.] Their work will be instrumental in placing these books within the reach of the great non-Catholic American public, who will thus have some opportunity to find out what the Church's doctrines and practices really are, and finally the increased circulation of such literature will be a well-deserved and much-needed stimulus to Catholic writers." - Id., p. 424. See also "Catholic Digest," March, 1937, pp. 126, 127, and "America," September 13, 1913, pp. 547, 548.

Mr. Michael J. F. Mc Carty, of England, gives us some interesting facts regarding a similar work done by Jesuits in England. He says that they suppress books of Protestant authors, and bring to the front those of Catholics, and as a result of this systematic work, he says:

"Many Protestant authors are forced to speak favourably and kindly of Romanism. . . . The publication of books containing friendly allusion to Protestant Christianity has almost ceased in England, [while the other kind of books] floods the country." - "The Jesuits and the British Press," p. 52. Edinburgh and London: 1910.

But, in addition to this, the Jesuits always have a man, either a priest or a layman, on the committee of almost every public library in Great Britain.

"The Jesuits' man comes provided with two lists, a black list, which includes every well-known book, ancient and modern, adverse to Romanism; and a white list of new books especially favourable to Romanism which he submits beforehand to the librarian, and eventually succeeds in getting placed in the library." – Pp. 50,51.

It is quite evident from our investigation of the facts that the Jesuits are the same in America as in England. Besides this, the few remaining books from the days when it was not so unpopular to state the unvarnished facts about medieval history have been diminishing in number by being worn out or purposely destroyed.

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Making America Catholic chapter 25 continued.

Censorship Of Books

Those who write histories today have more source matter on ancient history, but less on medieval, than historians had four hundred years ago; for after the Reformation had fully aroused the papal church to action, her emissaries, especially the vigilant Jesuits, searched out and destroyed every evidence that was damaging to her. When Bishop Gilbert Burnet, D. D., prepared to write his "History of the English Reformation," he became surprised, while searching among court records and public registers, to find so much missing, till he finally discovered the cause. He says:

"In the search I made of the Rolls and other offices, I wondered much to miss several commissions, patents, and other writings, which by clear evidence I knew were granted, and yet none of them appeared on record.

“But as I continued down my search to the fourth year of Queen Mary, I found in the twelfth roll of that year, a commission which cleared all my former doubts, and by which I saw what was become of the things I had so anxiously searched after. We have heard of the expurgation of books practiced in the Church of Rome; but it might have been imagined that public registers and records would have been safe. Yet lest these should have been afterwards confessors, it was resolved they should then be martyrs; for on the 29th of December, in the fourth year of her reign, a commission was issued out under the great seal to Bonner, Bishop of London, Cole, Dean of St. Paul's, and Martine, a doctor of the civil law, [which commanded the destruction of] divers compts, books, scrolls, instruments. . . .

"When I saw this, I soon knew which way so many writings had gone.” - “History of the Reformation of the Church of England,” 2-vol. ed., Vol. I, Preface, p. xiii. London: 1880.

Let no one, therefore, say that statements in older histories are not true because we cannot now find sources to prove them.

The reader may not know that back of all this activity stands the Roman Curia. One department of which is the Sacred Congregation of the Index, which meets at Rome on stated days to decide what books are forbidden, and to make lists of them, called "The Index of Prohibited Books."2 The writer has examined two editions of this "Index," one early edition, and their latest one of 1930 by Pope Pius XI. Some books are permanently forbidden, while others are forbidden until certain corrections are made in them, which explains the revisions of our schoolbooks, for the "Index" says:

"Can. 1396. Books condemned by the Holy See are prohibited all over the world and in whatever language into which they may have been translated.

“Can. 1397, Sec. 1. It is the duty of all the faithful, particularly of clerics, or those holding high positions and noted for their learning, to denounce any book, they may consider dangerous, to the local Ordinaries, or to the Holy See. . . .

"Sec. 3. Those to whom such denunciations are made are bound in conscience not to reveal the names of the accusers.

"Sec. 4. Local Ordinaries, either directly themselves, or through the agency of capable priests, are in duty bound to keep a close watch on the books that are published, or sold, within their territory. . . .

"Can. 1398, Sec. 1. The condemnation of a book entails the prohibition, without especial permission, either to publish, to read, to keep, to sell, to translate it, or in any way to pass it on to others.

"Sec. 2. A book which has been prohibited in any way may not be republished, unless, after the necessary corrections have been made." - "Index," of 1930, pp. xvi, xvii. Vatican Polyglot Press.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say about the "Censorship of Books": "In general, censorship of books is a supervision of the press in order to prevent any abuse of it.
"The reverse of censorship is freedom of the press."-Vol. III, p. 519.

This "supervision of the press" extends also to articles written in magazines and newspapers, and among the special organisations working in this field is the International Catholic Truth Society, and the Catholic International Associated Press. Reporting the Louisville federation convention of the latter, Michael Kenny, S. J., in America (a Jesuit weekly) for August 31, 1912, says of their Catholic Press Bureau:

"We have it in our power to compel our papers, the thinking machines of the people, to tell the truth and refrain from transmitting slanders on Catholic matters. We can prevent the wells at which the people drink from being poisoned. We can, following the lead of the Austrian Catholic Congress, establish a Catholic International Associated Press,3 and to accomplish this object every Catholic of the right spirit, reading in the daily papers calumnies of our religion and the most brazen justification of the robber bands who drive our religious from their homes and confiscate their property, should be willing to contribute a tithe of his possessions. All this and more can be accomplished by federated action. . . . Marching shoulder to shoulder with the spirit of soldiers on the battlefield at the call of the Church, we can successfully combat the organisations of her enemies and make this an era of Catholic manhood." - "America," August 31, 1912, p. 486, article by M. Kenny, S.J.

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The reader must keep in mind, that the book Facts of Faith from which all of these quotes are taken, was written in the 1940's. Just imagine what has taken place since the.

Amo2 said:

Making America Catholic chapter 25 continued.

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How can one oppose removing anti-Catholic lies and propaganda?

This material had historically been disseminated by the British in order to generate support for their campaign of discrimination agains Roman Catholics in England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, connected in particular to the Church of Scotland and the Presbyterians in Northern Ireland, and later, when official discrimination against Roman Catholics came to an end in the British governments, by various organizations in Scotland and Ireland connected to the Orange Lodges and Black Lodges, which have been connected with anti-Catholic violence during the Troubles*

Thus in the 20th century and 21st century context, anti-Roman Catholic hate speech has no place.

It should also be noted that within the US there was a history of hate groups that targeted Roman Catholics and discriminated against Americans of Irish and Italian ethnicity, primarily on the basis of their Roman Catholicism. This prejudice also extended even tp Americans of German ethnicity (Marshal Field, the Chicago department store owner, was known for his hatred of German Americans regarding them as antisocial drunks, and there was a strong element of anti-German, anti-Irish sentiment in the Prohibition, and indeed even Scandinavian and especially German Lutherans experienced discrimination in the US and perhaps in Canada as well (my friend @MarkRohfrietsch would know) from the White Anglo Saxon Protestants (I myself am partially of Yankee and Southern Scots-Irish descent, and partially German-Swedish) (and on a larger scale, against Filipinos and Latin Americans).

This discrimination also impacted Americans of Carpatho-Rusyn and Lemko descent, and also Ukrainian Americans, Russian Americans, Romanian Americans, Serbian Americans, Croatian Americans, and Hungarian Americans, discrimination which absolutely affected Eastern Orthodox immigrants as well as Roman Catholics (Greeks were treated at least as poorly as Italians, and Slavs were treated worse than Germans) and indeed Oriental Orthodox immigrants whether from Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, the Holy Land, Egypt, Armenia, India or Ethiopia and Eritrea.

And most of the hate groups associated with anti-Catholic discrimination were connected with systematic discrimination against African Americans, Native Americans and anti-Semitism, and many of them were also connected with the Eugenics movement, forced sterilization and even racialist violence.

Indeed as we see from contemporary anti-Roman Catholic polemics, many people who harbor a vitriolic contempt of the Roman Catholic Church do not differentiate it from Lutheranism, Eastern Orthodoxy or even Anglicanism and other traditional liturgical Protestant churches.

All of this anti-Catholicism has been to the detriment of Christianity as a whole, in that several cults such as the J/Ws flourished chiefly on the basis of adopting a radically anti-Catholic image and seeking to appeal both to former Catholics and especially in the early years, to White Anglo-Saxon Protestants which felt threatened by them. Furthermore, anti-Catholicism even among Fundamentalist Calvinists, Landmark Baptists and so on resulted in the slandering of the Early Church Fathers and false narratives concerning the Council of Nicaea, where the standard Creed was developed, and these in turn have led to the spreading of anti-Trinitarian theology.

*There was of course vicious anti-Protestant violence as well, and anti-British violence such as the bombing of the Grand Hotel in Brighton, but none of this was condoned by the Roman Catholic Church, which was at the time more concerned with attempting to bring an end to communism under Pope John Paul II, which provided vital support for Solidarity in Poland and which rebuked the Marxist advocates of “liberation theology” in South America.

+

This post is dedicated to my Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Anglican friends, and to my Jewish, African American, and Asian American friends, particularly those who have experienced racial or religious discrimination or who are descended from those who experienced such discrimination, as well as to all victims of anti-Catholic violence and persecution.

I would also like to say to my friends @chevyontheriver @JSRG @Jipsah @Yeshua HaDerekh @prodromos @FenderTL5 @ViaCrucis @Pavel Mosko @dzheremi @Michie @boughtwithaprice Christ is Risen, and to wish all of you a blessed St. Thomas Sunday.

The Liturgist said:

How can one oppose removing anti-Catholic lies and propaganda?

This material had historically been disseminated by the British in order to generate support for their campaign of discrimination agains Roman Catholics in England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, connected in particular to the Church of Scotland and the Presbyterians in Northern Ireland, and later, when official discrimination against Roman Catholics came to an end in the British governments, by various organizations in Scotland and Ireland connected to the Orange Lodges and Black Lodges, which have been connected with anti-Catholic violence during the Troubles*

Thus in the 20th century and 21st century context, anti-Roman Catholic hate speech has no place.

It should also be noted that within the US there was a history of hate groups that targeted Roman Catholics and discriminated against Americans of Irish and Italian ethnicity, primarily on the basis of their Roman Catholicism. This prejudice also extended even tp Americans of German ethnicity (Marshal Field, the Chicago department store owner, was known for his hatred of German Americans regarding them as antisocial drunks, and there was a strong element of anti-German, anti-Irish sentiment in the Prohibition, and indeed even Scandinavian and especially German Lutherans experienced discrimination in the US and perhaps in Canada as well (my friend @MarkRohfrietsch would know) from the White Anglo Saxon Protestants (I myself am partially of Yankee and Southern Scots-Irish descent, and partially German-Swedish) (and on a larger scale, against Filipinos and Latin Americans).

This discrimination also impacted Americans of Carpatho-Rusyn and Lemko descent, and also Ukrainian Americans, Russian Americans, Romanian Americans, Serbian Americans, Croatian Americans, and Hungarian Americans, discrimination which absolutely affected Eastern Orthodox immigrants as well as Roman Catholics (Greeks were treated at least as poorly as Italians, and Slavs were treated worse than Germans) and indeed Oriental Orthodox immigrants whether from Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, the Holy Land, Egypt, Armenia, India or Ethiopia and Eritrea.

And most of the hate groups associated with anti-Catholic discrimination were connected with systematic discrimination against African Americans, Native Americans and anti-Semitism, and many of them were also connected with the Eugenics movement, forced sterilization and even racialist violence.

Indeed as we see from contemporary anti-Roman Catholic polemics, many people who harbor a vitriolic contempt of the Roman Catholic Church do not differentiate it from Lutheranism, Eastern Orthodoxy or even Anglicanism and other traditional liturgical Protestant churches.

All of this anti-Catholicism has been to the detriment of Christianity as a whole, in that several cults such as the J/Ws flourished chiefly on the basis of adopting a radically anti-Catholic image and seeking to appeal both to former Catholics and especially in the early years, to White Anglo-Saxon Protestants which felt threatened by them. Furthermore, anti-Catholicism even among Fundamentalist Calvinists, Landmark Baptists and so on resulted in the slandering of the Early Church Fathers and false narratives concerning the Council of Nicaea, where the standard Creed was developed, and these in turn have led to the spreading of anti-Trinitarian theology.

*There was of course vicious anti-Protestant violence as well, and anti-British violence such as the bombing of the Grand Hotel in Brighton, but none of this was condoned by the Roman Catholic Church, which was at the time more concerned with attempting to bring an end to communism under Pope John Paul II, which provided vital support for Solidarity in Poland and which rebuked the Marxist advocates of “liberation theology” in South America.

+

This post is dedicated to my Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Anglican friends, and to my Jewish, African American, and Asian American friends, particularly those who have experienced racial or religious discrimination or who are descended from those who experienced such discrimination, as well as to all victims of anti-Catholic violence and persecution.

I would also like to say to my friends @chevyontheriver @JSRG @Jipsah @Yeshua HaDerekh @prodromos @FenderTL5 @ViaCrucis @Pavel Mosko @dzheremi @Michie @boughtwithaprice Christ is Risen, and to wish all of you a blessed St. Thomas Sunday.

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Yes, of course, all historical accounts of supposed abuses by Roman Catholics are just a bunch of bigoted garbage. And all historical accounts of Roman Catholic abuse of power are just tall tales by bigots, because you and others, Catholics in particular have said so. There is of course no place for such hate speech in the world today, is there? There should be a law or laws forbidding such. People should be punished for declaring such blatant falsehoods, shouldn't they. Yea, that would be something new, punishing people for daring to speak ill of Roman Catholicism. Let's do to them, what they claim we did to them in the past, to prove we never did such things. Yea, that is the ticket. No worries my friend, your dreams will come true eventually. Perhaps sooner than most think. What do you suppose should be done with these people who keep doing these things for which there is no longer any place in this world?

You declare Protestant accounts of history to be exaggerated lies, and then accuse those who would share them of being bigots promoting hate speech. Apparently because your accounts of history are the truth as you see it, you are justified in declaring others accounts you do not agree with, that of bigots promoting hate speech for which there is no place in this world. Or in other words should not be tolerated.

And oh yes, the big bad US has a history of hate groups. All evil hate groups began in the US don't you know. Slavery too, according to revisionist historians who do not like to look further back where all these things existed before this nation did. Sorry my friend, but these United States were largely populated by Europeans which predominantly formed this nation. Many came to escape persecution by Catholics and Protestants. The hate groups you speak of, and the strife, and the wars came here via Europe where all of these things already existed and flourished for century after century. There was in fact real violence and war on our shores directly connected to the persecutions and wars of Europe between Catholics and Protestants who were both competing for control of different areas of the would be future country. The Spanish wiped out a colony of French Huguenots in Florida in the sixteenth century, and the French intended to retaliate but were prevented by a storm.

Because of these very issues though, the founders of our nation wrote our Declaration of Independence, and our Constitution. Which declared civil and religious freedom by maintaining a healthy separation of Church and state, and giving all the people a voice in government. The evils you speak of did not rule the day, but were combatted and addressed by a majority of the people who wanted freedom. The hate groups you speak of exist everywhere, and have always and will always need to be addressed this side of heaven.

What are we seeing and dealing with right here and right now, but these same issues. A battle between different versions of history. A Protestant formed nation with appropriate histories, being largely replaced by Catholic peoples through one massive migration after another, and the ensuing battle over the different historical accounts given by each and or those who sympathize with either. There is nothing new under the sun. What has been done, will be done again. Until God returns and ends the cycles altogether.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.