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Spanish Inquisiton

The Liturgist

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Burning alive or killing people beforehand is true but using instruments to do so is falsehood. That doesn't sound logical at all.

If you want to talk about logic, there are three logical fallacies in your reply:

To begin with, the response contains a Straw Man fallacy because it misrepresents my argument. I did not claim that execution was carried out without any instruments, nor that the Inquisition did not engage in torture. My point was that certain infamous torture devices often associated with the Inquisition, such as those discussed by Mr. Simon Whistler, appear to be fictional or exaggerated according to the best historical research. By framing my argument as though I am saying that killing happened but no instruments were used at all, you are responding to a weaker version of my position rather than what I actually said.

Your post also relies on a False Equivalence fallacy because you are treating two separate claims as though they are linked. The fact that the Inquisition tortured and executed people is well documented, but that does not mean that every widely believed claim about how they did so is automatically true. It is entirely possible for both of the following to be true at the same time: that the Inquisition engaged in real and horrifying executions and torture, and that some of the specific instruments often attributed to them are myths or exaggerations. Acknowledging that historical distortions exist does not diminish the real suffering that occurred—it simply ensures that our understanding remains based on evidence rather than sensationalism.

Finally, the entire post constitutes an Appeal to Incredulity, since you dismiss my argument by saying it “doesn’t sound logical” without addressing the historical research behind it. Just because something sounds counterintuitive at first does not mean it is false. History often challenges widely held assumptions, and a crucial part of historical inquiry is distinguishing between what actually happened and what later storytelling or exaggeration has added.

It is this element of clarifying the facts of the matter from exaggerations and fictions and misunderstandings that separates history from mythology.
 
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The Liturgist

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Even a brief search on the Internet by the uninformed will reveal the vast extent of the discrepancy of the figures postulated by various “researchers/historians” on how many people were killed, with figures ranging between a few thousand and over a hundred million.

I’m not aware of anyone claiming a hundred million were killed, and if true that would be per se incredible since it exceeds the population of Spain and Portugal throughout the period of the Inquisition. Indeed even in 1800 the population of Spain was less than 15 million; today it is 40 million.

There are also several logical fallacies in your argument which I can enumerate for you, although ordinarily I only do that in arguments made directly to myself, as I want people who debate me to use logical arguments and avoid fallacy and factual error.
 
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JSRG

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Saying I don't believe you isn't a insult. Seems you like to exaggerate.
Your usage of "Aww" in your "Aww I get it now, you don't want to believe catholics tortured people during executions" was being done in an insulting manner. It is unlikely someone on a message board like this would be unaware of this--but in the off chance you actually didn't know, I'll be charitable and explain that as "Aww" is often used to express how something is cute (e.g. a baby or an animal), using it towards someone who is not is therefore done as an insult to demean them. So, yes your message was insulting.

I notice you again dodged the substance of my post (both the fact I pointed out how your claim about me was false and how you were dodging all of my points), meaning that you dodged my points, and when I pointed this out, you dodged that also. You have also done this with The Liturgist. It seems you are simply unable to respond to the points being raised against you.
 
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A “civilised discussion” is an interesting term to describe conjectures about a violent part of church history upon which historians have vigorously disagreed for centuries, not just disagreed, but done so in polar opposite opinions, vehemently defended by so-called facts, rendering any such discussion of the matter factually irrelevant and highly divisive.

Even a brief search on the Internet by the uninformed will reveal the vast extent of the discrepancy of the figures postulated by various “researchers/historians” on how many people were killed, with figures ranging between a few thousand and over a hundred million.

Many people even today deny the Holocaust, even though the Americans published quite extensive evidence, apparently obtained by sending in teams of photographers into the concentration camps to record evidence of the victims and forcing whole German towns to visit the camps and witness the facts for themselves.

How distorted do you think the holocaust evidence is going to be in 300 years time seeing there is so much division about the “facts of the matter” today?

Did that happen with the Spanish Inquisition? Were they overrun by a foreign power who documented and photographed the evidence and forced them to witness the atrocities?

Does a nation document and publish its own evil unless they are forced to do so by power that they are unable to resist?

Have you seen extensive evidence even of the church objectively documenting and publishing their own evil over the years?

Do you honestly think in 300 years time if the world continues as it is that the abuses of the church today will be extensively and accurately documented, seeing they are so covered up even at the present time?

You start off with conjectures that make absolutely no sense whatsoever and then have a conniption about people responding with what you condemn as folly.

If you honestly think that a period of evil would necessarily be extensively documented you have absolutely no clue about the nature of man or the stark reality right in front of your face today.

That being the case, how anyone can have a discussion with you about anything and expect any kind of logical response is hard to imagine.

Bore no resemblance to whose version of the “actual inquisition”? Your whole premise for this thread has been that your version of events which you laid out upfront (which by the way was not substantiated by any evidence) is correct and anybody else who doesn’t fit into your theories is postulating nonsense in an uncivilised manner.

Seeing your reaction to some of the other posts here, I think Romans 2.1 would be a pretty good reason why not many rational people would be able to have a “civilised discussion with you about this, or perhaps anything.

Not only that, but is this kind of thing possible to discuss while keeping with the spirit of Philippines 4.8.

Does a discussion on this topic edify the church? Does it empower evangelism? Is it of benefit to mankind in any way whatsoever?

Have you never read;

Proverbs 10:12 NKJV
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins.

Please don’t now try and justify all this and add error to error with the standard “if we learn history we avoid repeating the same mistakes in the future” nonsense that is preached by the blindly uninformed who are unaware that there is nothing new under the sun, because clearly that is drivel to anyone with even the vaguest knowledge of history.

Anyone who sees what is going on in the “educated” world today and who thinks that is a valid argument obviously has a very tenuous connection to reality.

Knowing that bad company corrupts good manners (1 Corinthians 15.33) and that bad company loves to speak about evil, may I propose Philippians 4.8 might be worth you training yourself to dwell on a little more.

If you want to judge people for indulging in behaviour that you condemn as uncivilised folly, may I suggest you probably have a little introspection and log removal project of your own to do first.
So you think Mel Brooks comedy is a rational discussion. What next? Monty python?

If you have evidence, bring it forward. If it makes you feel better, go ahead and keep attacking me. Get it out of your system, but attacking me does nothing to advance the thread

There are documents of over 67,000 trials from the Spanish Inquisition. Do you talk about them?
No, that would be scholarly
It seems you would rather view comedy? Why don’t we check the rumor mill or the gossip columns? Because if it’s in the movies or people said it, it must be true. Is that your argument ?

Disappointing
 
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Yes, isn’t that interesting? The insanity of anyone claiming such a thing doesn’t seem possible, does it, but let’s have a look at the facts because the lunacy is so much more common than you think?

My whole post to you revolved around two facts;

1. There is no logic in arguing about how many people were killed in the inquisition, especially for anyone who purports to be a Christian. Such things only create discord and cannot be resolved by any discussion, seeing the facts cannot be reliably verified outside of divine knowledge.

2. Starting up an utterly worthless thread which not only has no benefit for the body of Christ but which promotes division and disobedience to Philippians 4.8 and then accusing people of folly in their responses revealed your hypocrisy.

And yet you have responded still seeking to discuss this insanity with me as though I would be interested in doing any such thing after everything I wrote to you?!?&!?@?

There is no logical argument to be had with anyone who has a log in their eye and who refuses to see truth.

Do you also want to dispute about whether Satan has a pink toupee as well? Perhaps you want to argue about whether Hitler could have been transported to Bolivia in UFO. No, no, why don’t we have an argument about how many people stabbed Cesar and what the length of the knife blades were that they used or how many altar boys have been r***d or how many priests committed adultery with their parishioners?

I mean, obviously we’re never going to get to the truth but wouldn’t it be so beneficial and such fun to have arguments about those things?

I mean, just imagine if we came up with the answer, wouldn’t we be so much further ahead if we knew exactly how many people were killed in the inquisition? I mean I don’t know about you but I think it would be a turning point in history and we would change the whole world and everybody would be so much happier and so much more obedient to God and so much kinder to one another and so much harder working and I really do think the world would bloom in a way that we can’t even imagine.

Yes, I really don’t think that we should redeem the time. I really do think that the whole world needs to dedicate themselves to finding out how many people were killed in the inquisition.

I mean, not only that, just think of all the discord and division we could cause amongst brethren if we did that because even if we did have the answer, very few people would believe us but just think of all the wonderful division and discord that we could cause along the way just by discussing it. Wouldn’t it be amazing?

Proverbs 6: KJV [16] These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: [19] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

What do you think is more insane?

A believer doing something that they know God hates or somebody claiming that 100 million people were killed in the inquisition?

And yet you say that you marvel at the insanity going on all around you and claim to be able to identify “logical fallacies”.

You can beg me until you are blue in the face to discuss this ludicrousness with you, but the answer will always be.

NO.
And yet you are here. If you have nothing but attacks to add and claim thst you do not want a discussion, hmm Don’t see any value in that

Simple solution. Don’t want to talk? Don’t open your mouth or type your keyboard if we are being literal
 
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RileyG

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Not quite, I believe 20th century communism killed almost 100,000,000
If I understand correctly, over 100,000 Russian Orthodox priests and nuns were killed under communism. Millions more were also killed. It was worse than the holocaust.

One innocent life lost is one too many!
 
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I once determined that at most, the Spanish Inquisition killed 3,000 people, which is 3,000 too many, but the Aztec “Flower Wars”, a ceremonial ritual warfare for purposes of population control of rival cities, truly the stuff of nightmares, likely killed millions. The high end figure I saw was 40 million which if true would make it the worst genocide in recorded history.
Indeed. They believed human blood kept the sun rising from one day to the next. Therefore they needed CONSTANT human sacrifice.
 
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BeyondET

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If you want to talk about logic, there are three logical fallacies in your reply:

To begin with, the response contains a Straw Man fallacy because it misrepresents my argument. I did not claim that execution was carried out without any instruments, nor that the Inquisition did not engage in torture. My point was that certain infamous torture devices often associated with the Inquisition, such as those discussed by Mr. Simon Whistler, appear to be fictional or exaggerated according to the best historical research. By framing my argument as though I am saying that killing happened but no instruments were used at all, you are responding to a weaker version of my position rather than what I actually said.

Your post also relies on a False Equivalence fallacy because you are treating two separate claims as though they are linked. The fact that the Inquisition tortured and executed people is well documented, but that does not mean that every widely believed claim about how they did so is automatically true. It is entirely possible for both of the following to be true at the same time: that the Inquisition engaged in real and horrifying executions and torture, and that some of the specific instruments often attributed to them are myths or exaggerations. Acknowledging that historical distortions exist does not diminish the real suffering that occurred—it simply ensures that our understanding remains based on evidence rather than sensationalism.

Finally, the entire post constitutes an Appeal to Incredulity, since you dismiss my argument by saying it “doesn’t sound logical” without addressing the historical research behind it. Just because something sounds counterintuitive at first does not mean it is false. History often challenges widely held assumptions, and a crucial part of historical inquiry is distinguishing between what actually happened and what later storytelling or exaggeration has added.

It is this element of clarifying the facts of the matter from exaggerations and fictions and misunderstandings that separates history from mythology.
There are physical relics, indeed you are using straw man falecy as well, if your going to go down that road.
 
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BeyondET

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If you want to talk about logic, there are three logical fallacies in your reply:

To begin with, the response contains a Straw Man fallacy because it misrepresents my argument. I did not claim that execution was carried out without any instruments, nor that the Inquisition did not engage in torture. My point was that certain infamous torture devices often associated with the Inquisition, such as those discussed by Mr. Simon Whistler, appear to be fictional or exaggerated according to the best historical research. By framing my argument as though I am saying that killing happened but no instruments were used at all, you are responding to a weaker version of my position rather than what I actually said.

Your post also relies on a False Equivalence fallacy because you are treating two separate claims as though they are linked. The fact that the Inquisition tortured and executed people is well documented, but that does not mean that every widely believed claim about how they did so is automatically true. It is entirely possible for both of the following to be true at the same time: that the Inquisition engaged in real and horrifying executions and torture, and that some of the specific instruments often attributed to them are myths or exaggerations. Acknowledging that historical distortions exist does not diminish the real suffering that occurred—it simply ensures that our understanding remains based on evidence rather than sensationalism.

Finally, the entire post constitutes an Appeal to Incredulity, since you dismiss my argument by saying it “doesn’t sound logical” without addressing the historical research behind it. Just because something sounds counterintuitive at first does not mean it is false. History often challenges widely held assumptions, and a crucial part of historical inquiry is distinguishing between what actually happened and what later storytelling or exaggeration has added.

It is this element of clarifying the facts of the matter from exaggerations and fiction misunderstandings that separates history from mythology.
O I see, you can't read between the lines. It was a typo I meant ahh.

What appears to you doesn't equal truth.
 
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The Liturgist

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There are physical relics, indeed you are using straw man falecy as well, if your going to go down that road.

As was previously stated, certain supposed torture devices have been examined and the academic consensus is they are fakes dating from the 19th century or later. For example, the iron maiden and the “tickler.” Other items equally gruesome are authentic, both medical and torture devices and also execution methods.

How do you figure I am using a strawman? If you can show me a logical fallacy in my post I will correct or retract it.
 
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BeyondET

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As was previously stated, certain supposed torture devices have been examined and the academic consensus is they are fakes dating from the 19th century or later. For example, the iron maiden and the “tickler.” Other items equally gruesome are authentic, both medical and torture devices and also execution methods.

How do you figure I am using a strawman? If you can show me a logical fallacy in my post I will correct or retract it.
Do you got a link to from the academic consensus about those relics.


The same way you use strawman on me. You posted your own words.
 
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The Liturgist

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What appears to you doesn't equal truth.

I never claimed as much. Truth is Jesus Christ, and we should pursue Him rather than thinking about depraved instruments of torture, some of which were used in the Inquisition and others of which were not.
 
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BeyondET

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I never claimed as much. Truth is Jesus Christ, and we should pursue Him rather than thinking about depraved instruments of torture, some of which were used in the Inquisition and others of which were not.
Do you have a link to the academic consensus?
 
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BeyondET

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For example, the iron maiden and the “tickler.” Other items equally gruesome are authentic, both medical and torture devices and also execution methods.
I have read about the ironmaiden being not of the time period but not the Spanish tickler.
 
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The Liturgist

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The same way you use strawman on me. You posted your own words.

That’s not what a strawman is. I quoted your argument verbatim and then explained how that sentence was fallacious.
 
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BeyondET

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That’s not what a strawman is. I quoted your argument verbatim and then explained how that sentence was fallacious.
Let's get back to the academic consensus to see if there is any fallacy in the article or statements made about it. Where is it?
 
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Let's get back to the academic consensus to see if there is any fallacy in the article or statements made about it. Where is it?
You could start with this article and search from there.

If we are to remain academic, most philosophers know that it is difficult to prove a negative.
Rather than demand evidence for the absence of use of these devices, why don’t you provide a scholarly article from contemporaneous sources
that demonstrates their use?

Who was tortured by them? What was the trial? When did it take place?

Anyone can write and repeat a libelous comment, that is why it is a crime. The fact that there is a legal principle that one cannot slander or libel the dead, as there is no way to judge compensatory damages, does not make the action any less sinful before God.
 
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BeyondET

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You could start with this article and search from there.

If we are to remain academic, most philosophers know that it is difficult to prove a negative.
Rather than demand evidence for the absence of use of these devices, why don’t you provide a scholarly article from contemporaneous sources
that demonstrates their use?

Who was tortured by them? What was the trial? When did it take place?

Anyone can write and repeat a libelous comment, that is why it is a crime. The fact that there is a legal principle that one cannot slander or libel the dead, as there is no way to judge compensatory damages, does not make the action any less sinful before God.
I'm going off what Liturgist said in post 50#. They have been examined and the academic consensus where is the link the poster got that info from. There isn't any.
 
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The following quotes are from the book, THE REFORMATION IN SPAIN, by Thomas M’Crie., Chap. 3 – OF THE INQUISITION (pgs. 41-53)

The war of the Albigenses was the pretext used by the popes for the establishment of the ancient Inquisition; the necessity of checking the apostasy of the converts from Judaism was urged as the reason for introducing the modern. While the Spaniards were engaged in continual wars with one another or with the Moors, the Jews, who had been settled for ages in the Peninsula, by addicting themselves to trade and commerce, had, in the fourteenth century, engrossed the wealth of the nation, and attained to great influence in the government both of Castile and Aragon. Those who were indebted to them, and those who envied them on account of the civil offices which they held, united in stirring up the religious prejudices of the populace against them; and in one year five thousand Jews fell a sacrifice to popular fury. With the view of saving their lives, many submitted to baptism, and it is computed that, in the course of a few years, nearly a million of persons renounced the law of Moses and made profession of the Christian faith.

In the course of the first year in which it was erected, the inquisition of Seville, which then extended over Castile, committed two thousand persons alive to the flames, burnt as many in effigy, and condemned seventeen thousand to different penances.

According to a moderate computation, from the same date to 1517, the year in which Luther made his appearance, thirteen thousand persons were burnt alive, eight thousand seven hundred were burnt in effigy, and one hundred and sixty-nine thousand seven hundred and twenty-three were condemned to penances; making in all one hundred and ninety-one thousand four hundred and twenty-three persons condemned by the several tribunals of Spain in the course of thirty-six years.

There is reason for thinking that this estimate falls much below the truth. For, from 1481 to 1520, it is computed that in Andalusia alone thirty thousand persons informed against themselves, from the dread of being accused by others, or in the hope of obtaining a mitigation of their sentence.

Puigblanch, Inquisition Unmasked, i. 158. According to this author the number of the reconciled and banished in Andalusia, from 1480 to 1520, was a hundred thousand; while forty-five thousand were burnt alive in the archbishopric of Seville. (Ibid. vol. ii. p. 180.)”
And down to the commencement of the seventeenth century, the instances of absolution were so rare, that one is scarcely to be found in a thousand cases; the inquisitors making it a point, that, if possible, none should escape without bearing a mark of their censure, as at least suspected de levi, or in the lowest degree.

It was to be expected that the inquisitors would exert their power in checking the cultivation of biblical learning. In 1490, many copies of the Hebrew Bible were committed to the flames at Seville by the order of Torquemada; and in an auto-da-fe celebrated soon after at Salamanca, six thousand volumes shared the same fate, under the pretext that they contained judaism, magic, and other illicit arts.

Deza, archbishop of Seville, who had succeeded Torquemada as inquisitor-general, ordered the papers of Lebrixa to be seized, and passed sentence against him as suspected of heresy, for the corrections which he had made on the text of the Vulgate, and his other labors in elucidation of the scriptures. “The archbishop’s object (says Lebrixa, in an apology which he drew up for himself) was to deter me from writing. He wished to extinguish the knowledge of the two languages on which our religion depends; and I was condemned for impiety, because, being no divine but a mere grammarian, I presumed to treat of theological subjects. If a person endeavor to restore the purity of the sacred text, and point out the mistakes which have vitiated it, unless he will retract his opinions, he must be loaded with infamy, excommunicated, and doomed to an ignominious punishment! Is it not enough that I submit my judgment to the will of Christ in the scriptures? must I also reject as false what is as clear and evident as the light of truth itself? What tyranny! To hinder a man, under the most cruel pains, from saying what he thinks, though he express himself with the utmost respect for religion, to forbid him to write in his closet or in the solitude of a prison, to speak to himself, or even to think! On what subject shall we employ our thoughts, if we are prohibited from directing them to those sacred oracles which have been the delight of the pious in every age, and on which they have meditated by day and by night?”

Arbitrary as this court was in its principles, and tyrannical and cruel as it has proved in its proceedings, so blinded did the Spanish nation become as to felicitate herself on the establishment of the Inquisition. The cities of ancient Greece vied with one another for the honor of having given birth to Homer. The cities of modern Germany have warmly disputed the honor of having invented the art of printing. Even the credit of having first adopted this German invention has given rise to an honorable rivalry among the states of Italy; and the monastery of St. Subiac, in the Campagna di Roma, has endeavored to wrest the palm from both Milan and Venice.

But the cities of Spain have engaged in a more than inglorious contest for the credit of having been the first seat of an institution which, after failing to strangle learning in its birth, has all along persecuted it with the most unrelenting malice. The claims of the inhabitants of Seville are engraven on a monument erected in their city to the memory of this event. Segovia has contested this honor with Seville, and its historians are seriously divided on the question, whether the Holy Office held its first sitting in the house of the marques de Moya, or in that of the majorat de Caceres.

It is but justice, however, to the Spaniards to state, that this perverted and degrading sentiment was the effect of the Inquisition, and formed no original trait in the national character. The fact is now ascertained beyond all question, that the erection of this tribunal was viewed by the nation with the greatest aversion and alarm.

Talavera, the excellent archbishop of Granada, resisted its introduction with all his influence. The most enlightened Spaniards of that age spoke of its proceedings with horror and shame. “The losses and misery which the evil ministers of the Inquisition have brought upon my country can never be enough deplored,” says the chevalier de Cordova, Gonzalez de Ayora, in a letter to the secretary of king Ferdinand.

“O unhappy Spain, mother of so many heroes, how unjustly disgraced by such a horrible scourge!” exclaims Peter Martyr.

D’Arbues, the first inquisitor of Aragon, and afterwards canonized as a martyr, was not the only individual who fell a sacrifice to the indignation against the Inquisition, shared by all classes of the community. Torquemada, the first inquisitor-general, was obliged to adopt the greatest precautions for his personal safety. In his journeys he was uniformly accompanied by a guard of fifty familiars on horseback, and two hundred on foot; and he had always on his table the tusk of a wild animal, to which he trusted for discovering and neutralizing poisons.

In Aragon, where the inhabitants had been accustomed to the old Inquisition for two centuries and a half, the introduction of it in its new form excited tumults in various places, and met with a resistance almost national.

No sooner had the inhabitants of Castile felt the yoke, than they sought to throw it off; and the cortes of that kingdom joined with those of Aragon and Catalonia, in representing the grievances which they suffered from the Inquisition, and in demanding a radical reform on its iniquitous and oppressive laws.

It is unnecessary to say, that these attempts, which were renewed at intervals during thirty years from the establishment of that tribunal, proved finally abortive.

This unfortunate issue was in no small degree owing to cardinal Ximenes, who contributed more than any other individual to rivet the chains of political and spiritual despotism on his native country. Possessed of talents which enabled him to foresee the dire effects which the Inquisition would inevitably produce, he was called to take part in public affairs at a time when these effects had decidedly appeared. It was in his power to abolish that execrable tribunal altogether as an insufferable nuisance, or at least to impose such checks upon its procedure as would have rendered it comparatively harmless. But he not only allowed himself to be placed at its head, but employed all his influence and address in defeating every attempt to reform its worst and most glaring abuses. In 1512, the New Christians made an offer of six hundred thousand crowns to Ferdinand, to assist him in carrying on the war in Navarre, on condition that a law were passed enjoining the testimonies of the witnesses, in processes before the Inquisition, to be made public. With the view of diverting the king from acceding to this proposal, Ximenes seconded his remonstrances against it by placing a large sum of money at the royal disposal. And, in 1516, when a similar offer was made to the ministers of Charles V., and when the universities and learned men of Spain and Flanders had given their opinion, that the communication of the names and depositions of the witnesses was conformable both to divine and human laws, the cardinal again interposed, and by messengers and letters urged the rejection of the measure, upon the wretched plea that a certain nameless witness had been assassinated, and that the person of the king was put in danger by the admission of converted Jews into the palace.

He exerted himself with equal zeal in resisting the applications which the New Christians made to the court of Rome for the same object.

During the eleven years that he was at the head of this tribunal, fifty-one thousand one hundred and sixty-seven persons were condemned, of whom two thousand five hundred and thirty-six were burnt alive.

Not satisfied with perpetuating the Inquisition in his native country, he extended the precious boon to two quarters of the globe, by establishing one tribunal at Oran in Africa, and another at Cuba in America.
 
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The following quotes are from the book, THE REFORMATION IN SPAIN, by Thomas M’Crie., Chap. 3 – OF THE INQUISITION (pgs. 41-53)

The Albigensians were not Protestants, they were adherents of a dualist theology based on salvation through secret knowledge which most Protestants would regard as heretical, and which would not be considered Christian on CF.Com.

Thomas M’Crie was an 18th-early 19th century Presbyterian minister who lacked either a direct personal connection to the events in Spain or the credentials of an impartial historian - no scholar of Ecclesiastical history at any major institute of higher learning in the 21st century regards M’Crie as an authoritative source of information on the religious history of a Spain.

So whereas we can say, owing to their later connections with the Calvinists in Geneva, that the Waldensians were at least somewhat like modern Protestants, although their beliefs and history are obscure, in the case of the Albigensians we can more definitely say what they believed and did not believe, and the attempt by Landmark Baptists and Adventists and others to enlist the Albigensians as historical proto-Protestants is not historically credible.
 
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