How can God be ok with most people going to hell?

DrGoblin said:

You have a pointless argument.

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Not at all, you just don't like the point. In your view, God rigged the universe at creation s that most of the people He created will roast in an inferno for eternity. He could have set it up any other way that He chose, but He decided that most of His human creatures should be tortured forever. That's your dogma, and your view of God.

You try and make your vision of God look less like that of a merciless monster by saying "Oh, well they choose to go there", which is obvious rubbish. Millions upon millions live and die believing that the Christian Faith is simply wrong, or simply some weird foreign religion of which there are many, or just give it no thought at all. Tough luck for them. Mercy? Nah, just barbecue 'em. "Father forgive them?" Nope. they had their chance (or didnt, doesn't matrter), roast 'em!

DrGoblin said:

God set things up the way he wanted to.

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Sure did. And what you believe He set up may or may not have anything to do with what you believe He did. But in any case, the "the majority choose eternal torment" rubbish is just that, rubbish. God's mercy endures forever and ever, y'all's doesn't, if n fact you possess any at all. You've tried to remake God in your own image, and that means He has to be a pitiless fiend.

DrGoblin said:

Just because you don't like it doesnt mean anything.

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Just because you believe that God has created most human being simply to torture them for all eternity means less than nothing. It simply reflects your innate hatred for your fellow human beings. "Yeah, burn 'em forever! Bwahahahaha!"

DrGoblin said:

We either get on board or we are cast into hell, outer darkness.

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Even if you don't know what "on board"? "Didn't know, 'eh? Who cares? Take a seat in that handbasket, sucker!

"Wow, he seemed like a pretty nice guy, but God so hated the world that He tortures the vast majority of the people H created forever." Right?

DrGoblin said:

.. wherever God is not. The fact he gave us life should be cause enough to warrant paying attention to him.

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Even though, being omniscient, He knew even as He gave us life that it was only to be tortured forever. Gee, thanks!

Nasty religion you got there, homey.

Cygna said:

I apologize if this is considered adversarial, but I have not heard a satisfactory answer yet despite asking my whole life basically. The Bible says that the way to life is narrow, and few find it. I heard a prophecy that only 1 of 1000 people make it to heaven actually. So my question is, how is God ok with this? Why did He allow this planet, original sin’s curse, etc. to work out like this?

The first answer I heard was that it’s just inevitable, He’s sad, but He did everything He could by sending Jesus on the cross. This seems not very believable. An omnipotent God literally could not do more to save 99.9% of His creation? And even so, why would He allow this planet to persist knowing He could not save the billions of people going to hell?

The other answer I heard is just that He has a right to do whatever, we are naturally His enemies, so that’s just how it is. That like the Bible says, He is the potter and we are the clay, so we just have to accept that we will likely become objects of wrath unless we are both fortunate with special mercy and also extremely faithful which is difficult on a planet already having original sin.

Another answer is that it’s our fault we turn like this and it’s our rebellion. Honestly I would understand if Satan was considered at fault for rebellion considering one third of angels fell. I do not understand how we are at fault when we already have a curse just from being born, and 99.9% of us don’t make it. The odds are heavily against us, and saying “the soul that sins shall die” regardless seems extremely cruel and harsh.

It is made worse that hell is eternal and torturous. God literally decreed that hell should be this way, without anyone forcing Him to. He could’ve invented another system. I’ve concluded that existence is painful and doomed for creatures who were born into the wrong life, and God doesn’t care except for those very few who are humble, virtuous, and favored enough to make it and praise Him for His mercy to save them from a wrath that He Himself created. It really seems like all He cares about is His glory, and He can just ruin our eternal lives like it’s nothing.

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@trophy33 highlighted 3 ways to approach this:

1. Unsaved people really go to literal hell and flame and suffer there for ever (I think this is neither biblical nor morally acceptable)
2. Unsaved people will die/cease to exist - hell is rather a place their life ends, instead of a place of torture
3. All people will be saved, in time - universalism

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and as he said if you don't like one you can choose another. however, one issue with western thinking is that we need to know all the answers and if we don't like an answer we will make one up until we are satisfied (even if wrong). Sometimes it's ok not to know and we can take an agnostic approach to the afterlife. (I mean agnostic in its meaning of not-knowing all the details, but not according to our belief in God)

The Bible does show a clear path that God desires us to be on, we can recognize the path God has laid before us and called us to walk in uniquely then simply walk in that path. If you recognize a need to reach the lost (which you should) then put your shoes on and start seeking out the lost and show them Christ. God doesn't call us into an armchair approach of evangelism counting the numbers and saying it doesn't add up, he calls us into actively reach the lost as a mandate of our faith. How God judges the lost is his job, we are not in the damning or saving business, all our job is to introduce God in the equation and God does the rest. This isn't a sweep-it-under-a-rug sentiment. Recognize the need to reach the lost and your role in that (there is indeed a role), then start doing it. But don't worry about how God judges people and it's ok to say "I dunno" (because here's a hint, you really don't know and no one in the form knows either)

DrGoblin said:

a spirit is a literal thing. so, No, I don't requires dirt and trees for a place to be literal.

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Sure, spirits are literal things.

But what does "place" mean outside of the context of material, physical reality? Do you know? Because I don't.

-CryptoLutheran

DrGoblin said:

Hell is real, People will go there and there isn't anything that can done about it accept believe in Jesus Christ. I would strongly suggest you go to your churches elementary Sunday school and learn some basic Christian concepts before attacking God and his followers.

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I can assure you that Jipsah is well immersed in elementary Christian doctrine, and then some.

The problem with "hell" is that "elementary Christian doctrine" doesn't actually have much to say on the subject. Which is why for the past two millennia views about "hell" have been incredibly diverse. Even if we exclude Universalist and Annihilationist views entirely, the vast history of the Christian tradition has involved an incredibly diverse ideas.

For example, the Eastern Churches have, for longer than your or my tradition ever existed, understood hell to be the same "place" as heaven. Heaven and Hell are not "places", they are radically different experiences of existence as it pertains to and relates to God. Some of the clearest language about this comes from St. Isaac the Syrian, an ancient Christian theologian and bishop of Nineveh, who speaks of hell as the very opposite of a deprivation of God's love and presence, but as the fullness of God's love and presence--what makes hell hell, is the very same thing that makes heaven heaven. God's love. The difference isn't where we are, but rather our disposition toward God. Isaac uses the analogy of a dear friend, what happens when we, having betrayed a very close friend, are around that friend? We feel bitter regret, it's awful, we know what we've done, we know how bad it was, and the very presence of that friend is itself torture--especially when that friend continues to love us. The torture of hell is the torture of love.

That is not how you see it, but it is very much a deeply and explicitly Christian view. And the Orthodox rely on Scripture here. The Psalmist says, "If I make my bed in She'ol, You are there", "Where can I go to flee from Your presence?" God is everywhere, there is nowhere God isn't, even in deepest darkest hell, God is there, not as a medieval torturer, but as the One that He is, as St. John says, "God is love". And they look to the Epistle to the Hebrews, that our God is "a consuming fire", the fire of hell isn't an fire external from God, it is not a flame of hate, but a flame of intense love. It is, in fact, the same love which God pours out on the saints, which makes heaven heaven; but for the damned it is the torment of love.

Modern Western Evangelical Protestantism is not the standard of doctrines about hell. Hell is a weird, difficult, complicated subject. The Bible provides us with deeply contextualized language, and the Church has never been compelled to provide a simplistic dogmatic explanation about Hell.

Orthodoxy, with a small 'o', has a lot of diverse opinions and ideas about hell. Your personal opinion, or interpretation, isn't the deciding factor on what is, or isn't, Christian doctrine on the matter. And that's important to remember here. I don't know what your denomination is, but I come from a Lutheran POV, and even just within Lutheranism the subject of Hell is complicated and diverse.

-CryptoLutheran

DrGoblin said:

Well, you got that right I'm Christian. Im going to assume thats why we differ in views. However, that doesn't imply that I'm wrong in my assessment or belief...

P.S. i like your verbal descriptions

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Everyone participating in this thread is a Christian.

-CryptoLutheran

DrGoblin said:

Sorry i mean protestant christian

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I'm a Lutheran.

-CryptoLutheran

DrGoblin said:

Well i can see you're just arguing for the sake of being a jerk.

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Ah, going for the intellectual jugular, eh?

DrGoblin said:

The fact is that God created and designed whatever he wanted

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Obviously. And you say He wanted to condemn most of those He created to eternal torture, bcecause, being omniscient, He knew they were hellbound before He created them. Right?

DrGoblin said:

who are we to argue with it.

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I'm not arguing with what God did, I'm arguing with what you say He did, which are not at all the same thing. You're telling me that God is a pitiless fiend, who tortures folks forever, with malice aforethought. Even if they chose to go to hell (maybe influenced by some clever brochures, perhaps), they didn't choose eternal torture any more than anyone ever taken in by a con game "chose" whatever misery they ended up with. The same way granny "chose" to get her life savings stolen when she responded to that phishing email. You saying that's what God wanted? Like I said, interesting view of God you have there.

DrGoblin said:

Hell exists, if you fail to at least acknowledge

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Yeah, and God wanted people to queue up to go there, because "[He] so loved the world...", right?

DrGoblin said:

Jesus as your savior you will burn in hell because of your choice.

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Or your no choice, since hell is the default, right?

DrGoblin said:

It literally is so simple to NOT go to hell

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"OK, Omar, all you gots to do is renounce everything your religion has taught you from your youth and become a Christian, else you'll be burned forever." Omar sez "Buzz off Shaitan, you ain't fooling me, there is no God but Allah!", and God sez, "wrong answer, Omar, take a seat in that hand basket." Right?

DrGoblin said:

i guess you just can't believe it.

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I sure can't believe your diabolical doctrine, best stated as "For God so loved the world, that the vast majority of the people God ever creates will spend all eternity shrieking in hell because they couldn't be persuaded by some [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]epoke preacher that God was actually that vicious. More fools they? I mean, what happened to "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"? Nah, that was then, this is now. No more slack. Right?

DrGoblin said:

I never said anything about God creating us for torture,

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Sure you did, you just didn't use those words. And it is in fact what you believe, isn't it?

DrGoblin said:

so clearly you have trouble with basic English and context.

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Neither. You, however, seem to have some basic problems defending your staunch belief that just about everybody is headed for the infernal regions, To The Glory of God, right? It's almost like you don't believe that Jesus is God Incarnate, because our Lord's love and compassion don't seem to apply to His Father in your economy. In your religion, the Old Testament rules obtain, and God is the God of Wrath, and the Wages of Sin is no longer Death, but Eternal Life in Torment.

DrGoblin said:

You rail against my sentiments

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You noticed that, did you? Maybe my English is more fluent than I thought.

DrGoblin said:

, yet I tell you the overwhelming majority of Christians will tell you the same thing.

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Oh, vox populi, vox Dei, right? Maybe we should put it up for a referendum. And I'm sure you'll be happy to know that even Mohammed agrees with you, although, in fairness, God may be a bit more compassionate in Mahound's religion than you are in yours.

DrGoblin said:

YOU are in the minority with a view

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And that's how h Church has always established Truth; by popular vote, right?

DrGoblin said:

that seems to incriminate God as some tyrant.

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Nope, tht's just how your barbarous doctrine presents Him. No wonder "churches" like yours are hemmoraging members. The idea of "Jesus Came To Save You From God" just doesn't grab folks the way it used to.

DrGoblin said:

Even if I'm wrong

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... and you are.

DrGoblin said:

the thing for you to do would be to simply disagree

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I rhink I've done that quite emphatically.

DrGoblin said:

rather than spew slanderous comments or ill-intentioned statements at me.

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I see you haven't been at pains to deny any of the charges. Feel free if you reckon I've mischaracterized your beliefs, I'd be keen to how your doctrine of "pretty much everybody chooses to go to hell and be tortured forever and that's just fine with God too" hold up against the Gospel of Christ .

DrGoblin said:

I didn't come up with a fanciful version of God,

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No, just a diabolical version.

DrGoblin said:

you did and clearly you are dissatisfied with proper Christian theology,

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"Proper" obviously meaning whatever ghastly rubbish you've been fed by "hellfire preachers" over the years,

DrGoblin said:

and I guess you feel the need to pounce on what would otherwise be a normal dialog comment

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I "pounced" on it because it's obviously false, and invented solely to make God sound less like an inplacable monster than to your actual beliefs,

DrGoblin said:

and let us see that you think you have a larger penis or something.

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I believe that response speaks volumes in itself.

DrGoblin said:

Hell is real, People will go there and there isn't anything that can done about it accept believe in Jesus Christ.

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I'm sure your "Jesus vs God "soteriology has them battering down the door at your church, doesn't it?

DrGoblin said:

And I'm sure ty I would strongly suggest you go to your churches elementary Sunday school and learn some basic Christian concepts before attacking God and his followers.

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Physician, heal thyself.

Cygna said:

I apologize if this is considered adversarial, but I have not heard a satisfactory answer yet despite asking my whole life basically. The Bible says that the way to life is narrow, and few find it. I heard a prophecy that only 1 of 1000 people make it to heaven actually. So my question is, how is God ok with this? Why did He allow this planet, original sin’s curse, etc. to work out like this?

The first answer I heard was that it’s just inevitable, He’s sad, but He did everything He could by sending Jesus on the cross. This seems not very believable. An omnipotent God literally could not do more to save 99.9% of His creation? And even so, why would He allow this planet to persist knowing He could not save the billions of people going to hell?

The other answer I heard is just that He has a right to do whatever, we are naturally His enemies, so that’s just how it is. That like the Bible says, He is the potter and we are the clay, so we just have to accept that we will likely become objects of wrath unless we are both fortunate with special mercy and also extremely faithful which is difficult on a planet already having original sin.

Another answer is that it’s our fault we turn like this and it’s our rebellion. Honestly I would understand if Satan was considered at fault for rebellion considering one third of angels fell. I do not understand how we are at fault when we already have a curse just from being born, and 99.9% of us don’t make it. The odds are heavily against us, and saying “the soul that sins shall die” regardless seems extremely cruel and harsh.

It is made worse that hell is eternal and torturous. God literally decreed that hell should be this way, without anyone forcing Him to. He could’ve invented another system. I’ve concluded that existence is painful and doomed for creatures who were born into the wrong life, and God doesn’t care except for those very few who are humble, virtuous, and favored enough to make it and praise Him for His mercy to save them from a wrath that He Himself created. It really seems like all He cares about is His glory, and He can just ruin our eternal lives like it’s nothing.

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Possibility
Considering that the Bible indicates that we existed before we were here on Earth, when it indicates God knew us before we were born, when did States that our spirits return to God who gave it, and when it states that our names can be erased or blotted out of The Book of Life which means all names are already written there and can/will be erased pending on our choices. Considering that is it possible that we existed in heaven at some point, it seems we did and if we did what did we do for us to be here under judgment. And the Bible is clear the Earth is under judgment and the ruler/Prince of this world has been judged, John 16:11. The prince of this world is the devil who was cast out of heaven with one third of the Angels. The Bible doesn't mention the judgments of them, why? Jude 1:6 mentions the angels that left their first estate that were held in chains of darkness unto judgement, those Angels were not cast out. Food for thought.

The Bible also indicates God doesn't care about these flesh bodies, this flesh is temporary, it's born, it lived a short time, and it goes back to the dust from which it came. It's the spirit within these bodies that God is concerned with. We will have new bodies in the new heaven and new earth, we will be as Jesus is. We as people have a tendency to look at the flesh and think of the flesh, where God doesn't.

The Bible is clear choose who you're going to serve, him or the devil. The choice is yours, we've been warned and we know the consequences.

There is one scripture that can be used to tell what hell is Jesus said don't fear him who can destroy the body but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And there are other scriptures that tells us what we call hell leads to destruction, annihilation, ceasing to exist.

In God's Kingdom: God demands obedience, he demands loyalty, he demands, righteousness, truth, trust, honesty, love which brings about all the above. He rejects chaos, havoc, up heaving, unrighteous actions of any kind. What far too many people are like here on earth, all the things that humans do on Earth, he refuses to have in his kingdom and he's giving us a chance right here right now to make up our minds. That's what the Bible is about.

Either we accept it or we deny it the choice is ours.

truthuprootsevil said:

Possibility
Considering that the Bible indicates that we existed before we were here on Earth, when it indicates God knew us before we were born, when did States that our spirits return to God who gave it, and when it states that our names can be erased or blotted out of The Book of Life which means all names are already written there and can/will be erased pending on our choices. Considering that is it possible that we existed in heaven at some point, it seems we did and if we did what did we do for us to be here under judgment. And the Bible is clear the Earth is under judgment and the ruler/Prince of this world has been judged, John 16:11. The prince of this world is the devil who was cast out of heaven with one third of the Angels. The Bible doesn't mention the judgments of them, why? Jude 1:6 mentions the angels that left their first estate that were held in chains of darkness unto judgement, those Angels were not cast out. Food for thought.

The Bible also indicates God doesn't care about these flesh bodies, this flesh is temporary, it's born, it lived a short time, and it goes back to the dust from which it came. It's the spirit within these bodies that God is concerned with. We will have new bodies in the new heaven and new earth, we will be as Jesus is. We as people have a tendency to look at the flesh and think of the flesh, where God doesn't.

The Bible is clear choose who you're going to serve, him or the devil. The choice is yours, we've been warned and we know the consequences.

There is one scripture that can be used to tell what hell is Jesus said don't fear him who can destroy the body but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And there are other scriptures that tells us what we call hell leads to destruction, annihilation, ceasing to exist.

In God's Kingdom: God demands obedience, he demands loyalty, he demands, righteousness, truth, trust, honesty, love which brings about all the above. He rejects chaos, havoc, up heaving, unrighteous actions of any kind. What far too many people are like here on earth, all the things that humans do on Earth, he refuses to have in his kingdom and he's giving us a chance right here right now to make up our minds. That's what the Bible is about.

Either we accept it or we deny it the choice is ours.

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We did not exist in heaven before we were created. Yes we have always been in Gods "mind" but our life doesn't start till conception.

Jeff Saunders said:

We did not exist in heaven before we were created. Yes we have always been in Gods "mind" but our life doesn't start till conception.

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If you had said that you didn't believe we existed in heaven I would have no need to reply.

I totally disagree with you. Human life does not start until conception / the Spirit life exist in heaven. After all the Bible is clear flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.

You say "yes we have always been in God's mind." Even if that was so and we did not have individual spiritual existences, to exist in his mind is a form of spiritual existence and that spiritual existence would still be in heaven because God himself is there.

truthuprootsevil said:

If you had said that you didn't believe we existed in heaven I would have no need to reply.

I totally disagree with you. Human life does not start until conception / the Spirit life exist in heaven. After all the Bible is clear flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.

You say "yes we have always been in God's mind." Even if that was so and we did not have individual spiritual existences, to exist in his mind is a form of spiritual existence and that spiritual existence would still be in heaven because God himself is there.

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Why do you believe that " to exist in his mind is a form of spiritual existence " ?

Jeff Saunders said:

Why do you believe that " to exist in his mind is a form of spiritual existence " ?

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Jeff Saunders said:

Why do you believe that " to exist in his mind is a form of spiritual existence " ?

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I did not say that was my belief, that was simply my reply to you concerning your statement of us being in God's mind.

Since God is Spirit, how would you say his thoughts exist? What his thoughts be physical or spiritual?

Jeff Saunders said:

Why do you believe that " to exist in his mind is a form of spiritual existence " ?

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To edit is impossible, only allowed a certain amount of time. So hope you don't mind I add this.

As you say we were in God's mind, since God is in heaven and being in his mind would put Us in heaven too, before we were formed and put on Earth.

God is Spirit, his mind is Spirit, what he thinks is in spiritual content; that alone is a form of spiritual existence.

truthuprootsevil said:

To edit is impossible, only allowed a certain amount of time. So hope you don't mind I add this.

As you say we were in God's mind, since God is in heaven and being in his mind would put Us in heaven too, before we were formed and put on Earth.

God is Spirit, his mind is Spirit, what he thinks is in spiritual content; that alone is a form of spiritual existence.

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It all depends on how you define spiritual existence. If you define it as us being an spiritual being before conception on this earth, then I would say that's different than being a spiritual thought of God. Some think that we existed in heaven with God before we were conceived and God places us in a physical mortal body. This idea has been considered to be false. I see it like when scripture says Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth, but it did not happen till about 32 AD. The thought came before the physical represents itself.

Jeff Saunders said:

It all depends on how you define spiritual existence. If you define it as us being an spiritual being before conception on this earth, then I would say that's different than being a spiritual thought of God. Some think that we existed in heaven with God before we were conceived and God places us in a physical mortal body. This idea has been considered to be false. I see it like when scripture says Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth, but it did not happen till about 32 AD. The thought came before the physical represents itself.

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If the idea was ever proven false it has risen again, then there is a difference between consider to be false than proven false. Some do some don't different theologies different denominations and there are thousands within the church.

Whenever I watch the news or hear current events I understand why hell exists and support its presence. Some people prefer chaos and wickedness and we’re forced to live with them. Giving us a better life devoid that is a blessing.

~bella

bèlla said:

Whenever I watch the news or hear current events I understand why hell exists and support its presence. Some people prefer chaos and wickedness and we’re forced to live with them. Giving us a better life devoid that is a blessing.

~bella

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I think that is short thinking. If you were to look at Saul before his conversion he was a dealer in chaos for the church but he did become a follower of Jesus. How is he any different than anyone else? This life is just the beginning for us, most do not follow Jesus now but in the ages to come all will see Jesus and bend the knee and confess that he is Lord(Phil 2:10-11) then God will be all in all( 1 Cor 15:28), and we spend eternity with each other not in chaos but in loving unity. This life is just a short blip in our existence, it's not the whole.

Jeff Saunders said:

I think that is short thinking. If you were to look at Saul before his conversion he was a dealer in chaos for the church but he did become a follower of Jesus. How is he any different than anyone else? This life is just the beginning for us, most do not follow Jesus now but in the ages to come all will see Jesus and bend the knee and confess that he is Lord(Phil 2:10-11) then God will be all in all( 1 Cor 15:28), and we spend eternity with each other not in chaos but in loving unity. This life is just a short blip in our existence, it's not the whole.

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I love your post but is there a denomination that teaches this doctrine?

Jeff Saunders said:

I think that is short thinking. If you were to look at Saul before his conversion he was a dealer in chaos for the church but he did become a follower of Jesus. How is he any different than anyone else? This life is just the beginning for us, most do not follow Jesus now but in the ages to come all will see Jesus and bend the knee and confess that he is Lord(Phil 2:10-11) then God will be all in all( 1 Cor 15:28), and we spend eternity with each other not in chaos but in loving unity. This life is just a short blip in our existence, it's not the whole.

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Saul believed in God and persecuted the people he felt were doing evil in His name. That has no relation to my statement. We all have a choice when it comes to Him and accepting the truth. If He deems hell is suitable for some who am I to disagree?

~bella