West TX Children Treated for Vitamin A Toxicity Along Side Measles

rambot · Apr 9, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
As opposed to what, though?

While obviously vaccination is the best "upstream solution" to measles.

It's not as if RFK is the first person to give non-descript, incomplete information on that.

For instance, if you take these 3 pieces of information, separately, into consideration

Immigrant Health Service : Vitamin A

www.rch.org.au

Vitamin A deficiency is associated with visual impairment and increased mortality in children, particularly from measles

Vitamin A for measles | Cochrane Equity

methods.cochrane.org

Vitamin A reduced the risk of death from measles by 87% for children younger than two years old. In addition, for all children, it reduced the length of time the child suffers from diarrhea by 2 days and shortens the duration of fever by 1 day.

Micronutrient Inadequacies in the US Population: an Overview | Linus Pauling Institute

lpi.oregonstate.edu

Approximately 43.0% of Americans are vitamin A deficient

Given that all 3 sources cited here are reputable...

What would be a reasonable person's takeaway from those pieces of information?

Interesting. To me, a reasonable takeaway would be, I'm going to talk to my doctor about using Vitamin A.

But the facts that I live in a place with socialized medicine definitely effects that choice.

Since talking to a doctor is expensive in America and people can't afford it, they just self dispense.

There is a reason the average american life expentancy is several YEARS less than

iluvatar5150 · Apr 9, 2025

rambot said:
Since talking to a doctor is expensive in America and people can't afford it, they just self dispense.

This is a tangent, but it's impacting me now and I'm waiting for a build to finish, so...

Even when money isn't an issue, talking to a doctor is a pain in the butt. I'm at the stage of parenthood where there's a steady stream of virii lined up at my door, itching for a chance to kick me in the groin. Last winter, it was so bad, I went months without leaving the house. Doctors can't do anything until it turns into pneumonia, but if you try to see one, it's a minimum of a couple hours (assuming you can get in at all, which, loooool) just to be told to man up and ride it out. I have a very flexible job, good insurance, and enough money that I don't even know what my copays are. And I don't want to bother with the doctor.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 9, 2025

wing2000 said:
What percentage of Texas' children have a Vitamin A deficieny?

Good question.

If 43% of American population as a whole have inadequate Vitamin A levels, and Vitamin A typically is dictated by diet. Do we have any reason to believe that Texas is better than the rest of the nation, on average, with regards to having a healthy well-balanced diet?

(and inadequate vitamin A levels are more common in kids than adults, because as we all know, fish & carrots isn't quite as popular as chicken nuggets and candy with the youngsters)

ThatRobGuy · Apr 9, 2025

rambot said:
Interesting. To me, a reasonable takeaway would be, I'm going to talk to my doctor about using Vitamin A.

But the facts that I live in a place with socialized medicine definitely effects that choice.

Since talking to a doctor is expensive in America and people can't afford it, they just self dispense.

Ultimately, someone taking mega doses because they didn't read the label properly wouldn't be his fault though, would it?

If someone asked me "what's a good high-protein/low-fat meal for losing some weight", and I say "hey, you should do some chicken breast and broccoli"

...and they proceed to attempt to either force feed themselves 4 pounds of it and throw up, or they decide to eat their chicken medium rare and contract a pathogen, the poor outcome they experienced doesn't mean my advice was inherently bad.

With regards to a Vitamin A supplement.

We have different classes of drugs for a reason (stuff you can just pick up off the shelf, stuff you have to ask the pharmacist for --meaning, they may require additional instructions, and stuff you need an actual prescription for)

Vitamin and Mineral supplements are almost always in the first category, because the instructions on the back of the bottle are typically sufficient, and most people aren't making a special call to their doctor to ask about it if they're trying it based on a recommendation.

I think this case is definitely more about the messenger than the actual message.

If one parent says "when my child is sick and has a fever, Children's Motrin has always worked really well" and recommends that to another parent, how often is that other parent making a special call to the Doc to ask about it? vs. simply buying a bottle from supermarket and reading the instructions and giving it a try?

ThatRobGuy · Apr 9, 2025

Say it aint so said:
Right. It concerns me that RFKjr is dispensing medical advice. How about he just say if you contract measles seek medical professionals. And if they recommend Vitiman A, let them advise. Kind of like Trump mentioning possible treatments for covid that led to actual deaths, leave it to the professionals else you end up with situations like this:

West Texas children treated for vitamin A toxicity after measles hospitalizations

Multiple children in West Texas have been treated for vitamin A toxicity stemming from at-home attempts to treat measles, hospital officials have confirmed. Covenant Children's Hospital declined Friday afternoon to say how many patients in Lubbock have been treated for vitamin A toxicity, but confirmed there have been "fewer than 10 cases." The children were initially hospitalized due to measles complications. They underwent routine lab testing, which showed abnormal liver function believed to be caused by vitamin A toxicity, according to Dr. Lara Johnson, a pediatric hospitalist and chief medical officer of the Covenant Health-Lubbock service area. “Some patients reported using vitamin A for both treatment and prevention of measles,” Johnson said in a statement on March 27.

So fewer than 10 cases?

I know people want to really highlight this because who the source of the recommendation was (for similar reasons that they were really trying to highlight the "people eating horse paste" thing, making it sound like it was extremely common)

A stat (per pub med) that may add a little context to this:

Research found that approximately 63,000 children under 6 years experience out-of-hospital medication errors each year. These errors predominantly occur at home and often involve common medications like analgesics and cough and cold preparations.

~10,100 of those cases per year involve an emergency room visit due to medication errors by caregivers/parents.

So, while unfortunate, there's nothing to suggest that this is any more pervasive than the unfortunate mistakes parents make with Tylenol or Dimetapp.

rambot · Apr 9, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
Good question.

If 43% of American population as a whole have inadequate Vitamin A levels, and Vitamin A typically is dictated by diet. Do we have any reason to believe that Texas is better than the rest of the nation, on average, with regards to having a healthy well-balanced diet?

(and inadequate vitamin A levels are more common in kids than adults, because as we all know, fish & carrots isn't quite as popular as chicken nuggets and candy with the youngsters)

Not their data was only for 4yrs and up...wasn't it children who were our biggest concern?

rambot · Apr 9, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
Ultimately, someone taking mega doses because they didn't read the label properly wouldn't be his fault though, would it?

Not in a legal sense but again, the HEAD OF THE HEALTH AGENCY should be playing to the "lowest common demoninator"...not "What is reasonable".
IT's his JOB to give GOOD advice.

ThatRobGuy said:
If someone asked me "what's a good high-protein/low-fat meal for losing some weight", and I say "hey, you should do some chicken breast and broccoli"
...and they proceed to attempt to either force feed themselves 4 pounds of it and throw up, or they decide to eat their chicken medium rare and contract a pathogen, the poor outcome they experienced doesn't mean my advice was inherently bad.

As stated above, when you are a LEADER you are RESPONSIBLE for the things you say. That means you have a RESPONSIBILITY to be clear and concise and precise.
"Go to your doctor and talk about Vitamin A" is appropriate advice for the head of health to give.
"Take Vitamin A" is DOCTOR'S advice that is TOO individual to a particular situation.

I feel pretty confident that doctor's themselves would be quick to tell you how important PRECISE instructions are to give to their patients; Why would it not be important for the head of the CDC if he is presenting INDIVIDUALIZED health advice?

ThatRobGuy said:
If one parent says "when my child is sick and has a fever, Children's Motrin has always worked really well" and recommends that to another parent, how often is that other parent making a special call to the Doc to ask about it? vs. simply buying a bottle from supermarket and reading the instructions and giving it a try?

You are equating the responsibility of a RANDOM parent with the responsibilities of the SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES .

I think this case is definitely more about the messenger than the actual message.

Please accept that the fatigue Trump critics with this statement as it's trotted out every time there's a critique of them.

As a leader, how you communicate is important. It just is. That cannot be denied.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 9, 2025

rambot said:
I find it disconcerting that you seem to be downplaying the importance of how he communicates with people.

From what I'm reading, his exact words were:

"Vitamin A supplementation has been shown to reduce measles-related complications and mortality, particularly in children with vitamin A deficiency. (CDC) had dispatched vaccines and treatments, including vitamin A, to Texas in response to the outbreak."

And if you look at his HHS press release:

https://www.hhs.gov/press-room/measles-outbreak-call-to-action-for-all-of-us.html

The very first line from his press release:
MMR vaccine is crucial to avoiding potentially deadly disease

Then all the way down in paragraph 7

It is also our responsibility to provide up-to-date guidance on available therapeutic medications. While there is no approved antiviral for those who may be infected, CDC has recently updated their recommendation, opens in a new tab supporting administration of vitamin A under the supervision of a physician for those with mild, moderate, and severe infection. Studies have found, links to an external website, opens in a new tab that vitamin A can dramatically reduce measles mortality.

I'm not downplaying...I'm highlighting the fact that it would seem as if people are simply waiting to pounce on the moment that he mentions anything other than a vaccine for any ailment.

Were they doing that to anyone of the other public health people during covid? Like when health officials recommended taking Tylenol for certain symptom management at-home...

And then this happened:

U.S. poison control centers saw an uptick in calls related to acetaminophen exposure, particularly during the early months of the pandemic.
Many of these involved unintentional overdoses, where people exceeded the recommended daily dose (4,000 mg for adults) while trying to reduce fevers or pain related to a sars-cov-2 infection.
A 2021 study in the Journal of Medical Toxicology noted that the overall number of toxic exposures reported to poison centers tripled in the early pandemic months, and acetaminophen was among the most common substances involved.

Was anyone bashing Fauci or the head of the WHO for recommending Tylenol without mentioning specific dosages?

Say it aint so · Apr 9, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
So fewer than 10 cases?

I know people want to really highlight this because who the source of the recommendation was (for similar reasons that they were really trying to highlight the "people eating horse paste" thing, making it sound like it was extremely common)

A stat (per pub med) that may add a little context to this:

Research found that approximately 63,000 children under 6 years experience out-of-hospital medication errors each year. These errors predominantly occur at home and often involve common medications like analgesics and cough and cold preparations.

~10,100 of those cases per year involve an emergency room visit due to medication errors by caregivers/parents.

So, while unfortunate, there's nothing to suggest that this is any more pervasive than the unfortunate mistakes parents make with Tylenol or Dimetapp.

Again my point. How about he just say if you contract measles seek medical professionals. And if they recommend Vitamin A, let them advise. Kind of like Trump mentioning possible treatments for covid that led to actual deaths, leave it to the professionals.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 9, 2025

Say it aint so said:
Again my point. How about he just say if you contract measles seek medical professionals. And if they recommend Vitamin A, let them advise. Kind of like Trump mentioning possible treatments for covid that led to actual deaths, leave it to the professionals.

https://www.hhs.gov/press-room/measles-outbreak-call-to-action-for-all-of-us.html

The very first line from his press release:
MMR vaccine is crucial to avoiding potentially deadly disease

Then all the way down in paragraph 7

It is also our responsibility to provide up-to-date guidance on available therapeutic medications. While there is no approved antiviral for those who may be infected, CDC has recently updated their recommendation, opens in a new tab supporting administration of vitamin A under the supervision of a physician for those with mild, moderate, and severe infection. Studies have found, links to an external website, opens in a new tab that vitamin A can dramatically reduce measles mortality.

Say it aint so · Apr 9, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
https://www.hhs.gov/press-room/measles-outbreak-call-to-action-for-all-of-us.html

The very first line from his press release:
MMR vaccine is crucial to avoiding potentially deadly disease

Then all the way down in paragraph 7

It is also our responsibility to provide up-to-date guidance on available therapeutic medications. While there is no approved antiviral for those who may be infected, CDC has recently updated their recommendation, opens in a new tab supporting administration of vitamin A under the supervision of a physician for those with mild, moderate, and severe infection. Studies have found, links to an external website, opens in a new tab that vitamin A can dramatically reduce measles mortality.

Yes, first line......and stop right there.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 9, 2025

Say it aint so said:
Yes, first line......and stop right there.

...and that mentality is what's causing backlash against vaccines.

The world is messy, not everyone lives by the "The vaccine, the whole vaccine, and nothing but the vaccine" mantra.

And you trying to make them do it by requesting a public health policy that basically translates to "vaccine now!!! you take the vaccine!...get the vaccine!!!...how about now??...vaccine? get it...nothing but the vaccine...vaccinate or you're a stupid bumpkin!"

...is just making the problem worse.

If you haven't caught on, part of the pushback against vaccinations is rooted precisely in the fact that some folks don't want to have to take orders from people like you.

wing2000 · Apr 9, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
Good question.

If 43% of American population as a whole have inadequate Vitamin A levels, and Vitamin A typically is dictated by diet. Do we have any reason to believe that Texas is better than the rest of the nation, on average, with regards to having a healthy well-balanced diet?

(and inadequate vitamin A levels are more common in kids than adults, because as we all know, fish & carrots isn't quite as popular as chicken nuggets and candy with the youngsters)

Source?

A 2012 CDC Report found:

The rate of nutrient deficiencies in the general U.S. population ranges from less than 1% for folate, vitamin A, and vitamin E to about 10% for vitamin B6, vitamin D, and iron. For most nutrition indicators, deficiency rates vary by age, gender, or race/ethnicity, and can be as high as 31% for vitamin D deficiency in non-Hispanic blacks.

About the Second Nutrition Report

Learn more about CDC's Second Nutrition Report.

www.cdc.gov

wing2000 · Apr 9, 2025

...and from the NIH:

Frank vitamin A deficiency is rare in the United States. However, vitamin A deficiency is still common in many developing countries, often as a result of limited access to foods containing preformed vitamin A from animal-based food sources and to foods containing provitamin A carotenoids because of poverty or traditional diets [1,26]. A pooled analysis of population-based surveys from 138 low-income and middle-income countries found that 29% of children age 6 months to 5 years had vitamin A deficiency in 2013 [27]. Deficiency rates were highest in sub-Saharan Africa (48%) and South Asia (44%). In addition, approximately 10% to 20% of pregnant women in low-income countries have vitamin A deficiency [28].

Office of Dietary Supplements - Vitamin A and Carotenoids

Vitamin A overview for health professionals. Research health effects, dosing, sources, deficiency symptoms, side effects, and interactions here.

ods.od.nih.gov

Say it aint so · Apr 9, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
If you haven't caught on, part of the pushback against vaccinations is rooted precisely in the fact that some folks don't want to have to take orders from people like you.

People can decide what wish come taking vaccines. I am not ordering anyone to do anything. If they choose to get their advice from Joe Rogan or a environmental lawyer, that's on them. If a parent doesn't want to have their child receive the required vaccinations for pubic schools, then go else where. I am are sure there are plenty of schools who teach the earth is 6,000 years old available.

rambot · Apr 9, 2025

iluvatar5150 said:
This is a tangent, but it's impacting me now and I'm waiting for a build to finish, so...

Even when money isn't an issue, talking to a doctor is a pain in the butt. I'm at the stage of parenthood where there's a steady stream of virii lined up at my door, itching for a chance to kick me in the groin. Last winter, it was so bad, I went months without leaving the house. Doctors can't do anything until it turns into pneumonia, but if you try to see one, it's a minimum of a couple hours (assuming you can get in at all, which, loooool) just to be told to man up and ride it out. I have a very flexible job, good insurance, and enough money that I don't even know what my copays are. And I don't want to bother with the doctor.

1) Do you think this is close to the average (Say) urban/rural American's experience?
Because honestly, that is basically 100% comparable to my Canadian experience; So why do American's gloat so much?
I have to go in for a couple issues yearly. Ultimately, 2x a year for a doc for me. I don't go to the doc unless there is fever issues and other stuff. Fever is the "Don't mess around" switch. Until there's fever, home is likely ok (given not vomitting or other obvious signs). But I do have lingering health issues I need to stay updated with my doc so I can usually match that up with one of my visits.
And then...when harm REALLY befalls me our system has been great. except for one of my kidney stones....that prooooooobably could have been quicker and given my pain level at that time (11/10....I was lamaze breathing...lol!). And to be fair, I had no concept of time. It literally could have been 17 minutes, or it could have been 4 hours.
BUT when I had a hashimoto attack, that was RIDICULOUSLY efficient performance in that emergency department. The ambulance drivers were stumped (CONVINCED I'd done drugs and not admitted it). Took a heart reading and blood test AS SOON as I got rolled in the door. With 10mins I watch all hell broke loose as they helped me. They were awesome I would defend this system every day of my life.

iluvatar5150 · Apr 10, 2025

rambot said:
1) Do you think this is close to the average (Say) urban/rural American's experience?
Because honestly, that is basically 100% comparable to my Canadian experience; So why do American's gloat so much?
I have to go in for a couple issues yearly. Ultimately, 2x a year for a doc for me. I don't go to the doc unless there is fever issues and other stuff. Fever is the "Don't mess around" switch. Until there's fever, home is likely ok (given not vomitting or other obvious signs). But I do have lingering health issues I need to stay updated with my doc so I can usually match that up with one of my visits.
And then...when harm REALLY befalls me our system has been great. except for one of my kidney stones....that prooooooobably could have been quicker and given my pain level at that time (11/10....I was lamaze breathing...lol!). And to be fair, I had no concept of time. It literally could have been 17 minutes, or it could have been 4 hours.
BUT when I had a hashimoto attack, that was RIDICULOUSLY efficient performance in that emergency department. The ambulance drivers were stumped (CONVINCED I'd done drugs and not admitted it). Took a heart reading and blood test AS SOON as I got rolled in the door. With 10mins I watch all hell broke loose as they helped me. They were awesome I would defend this system every day of my life.

I don’t know. It probably comes down to the specifics of your local area, the ratio of supply to demand, and how your facility manages their calendar. My wife, daughter and I all go to the same place and it’s much easier to get a last minute appointment with a pediatrician than it is with an adult doctor. Non-emergency visits with a specialist are months out, especially if you’re a new patient.

Emergency situations are kind of a different beast. They’ll move heaven and earth to see you. I broke my leg a couple years ago and I went through the entire course of treatment with the osteopath in (way) less time than it took to get a checkup as a new patient at a GP.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 10, 2025

wing2000 said:
Source?

A 2012 CDC Report found:

The rate of nutrient deficiencies in the general U.S. population ranges from less than 1% for folate, vitamin A, and vitamin E to about 10% for vitamin B6, vitamin D, and iron. For most nutrition indicators, deficiency rates vary by age, gender, or race/ethnicity, and can be as high as 31% for vitamin D deficiency in non-Hispanic blacks.

About the Second Nutrition Report

Learn more about CDC's Second Nutrition Report.

www.cdc.gov

Micronutrient Inadequacies in the US Population: an Overview | Linus Pauling Institute

lpi.oregonstate.edu

There's a distinction between deficiency and inadequacy (at least in clinical terms)

So, while a full-blown deficiency can cause overt stand-alone symptoms like the ones listed above.

Both a deficiency and an inadequacy can both have the effect of weakened immunity and increased susceptibility to various infections.

sfs · Apr 10, 2025

Say it aint so said:
People can decide what wish come taking vaccines. I am not ordering anyone to do anything. If they choose to get their advice from Joe Rogan or a environmental lawyer, that's on them.

As long as they thereafter maintain absolutely zero contact with other humans, I'm fine with that. If they do interact with other people (as humans tend to do), then their choices affect others. For diseases like measles, choosing not to be vaccinated kills other people.

wing2000 · Apr 10, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
Micronutrient Inadequacies in the US Population: an Overview | Linus Pauling Institute

lpi.oregonstate.edu

There's a distinction between deficiency and inadequacy (at least in clinical terms)

My point is, all of the cited studies are referring to children populations in 3rd world countries. Vitamin A deficiency (or inadequacy) is not an issue in the United States.

Hence, why is the RFK promoting it on Fox News to an American audience?

During a March 4 interview on Fox News, Kennedy suggested that therapies such as the use of cod liver oil — which contains vitamins A and D — were "working" in treating measles patients.

West TX Children Treated for Vitamin A Toxicity Along Side Measles

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