If the Gospel was False... What Then???

stevevw · Apr 1, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
This "born again" culture was just not part of the religous environment I was part of. No one talked of such experiences. I never heard anyone refer to it as not Christian until I got here.

I think this conversation is done.

Ok, thats interesting. Maybe the "born again" culture was there but it was not called being born again. THough this is directly biblical in that Jesus says to Nicademous that one must be norn again of Gods spirit and he could not understand how someone could be born from their mothers womb twice.

So its central and I cannot see how Christians cannot be born again and not experience anything different to not being born again. Maybe they just expressed this in langaue such as 'a new person in Christ' or that they are no longer slaves to sin and thus a new person.

They should be experiencing joy and peace if they take seriously what the bible says. Becaue it tells Christians they will find joy and peace in Christ. In fact joy even in suffering for Christ.

Hans Blaster · Apr 2, 2025

stevevw said:
Ok, thats interesting. Maybe the "born again" culture was there but it was not called being born again. THough this is directly biblical in that Jesus says to Nicademous that one must be norn again of Gods spirit and he could not understand how someone could be born from their mothers womb twice.

So its central and I cannot see how Christians cannot be born again and not experience anything different to not being born again. Maybe they just expressed this in langaue such as 'a new person in Christ' or that they are no longer slaves to sin and thus a new person.

They should be experiencing joy and peace if they take seriously what the bible says. Becaue it tells Christians they will find joy and peace in Christ. In fact joy even in suffering for Christ.

I thought you understood I was Catholic, like you were once.

stevevw · Apr 2, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
I thought you understood I was Catholic, like you were once.

Yeah I think there are some similarities but also some differences. Though like you I had a negative experience there was something that stayed with me. In my darkest hours I still prayed sometimes. So something rubbed off and a seed was planted.

I completely moved away from the church. I mean I had never been in a position to choose as I was young. So when I could choose I never went to church or practiced religion.

So my salvation had nothing to do with the CC. It came much later and I was ready to accept Christ personally rather than because someone else was making me. But I think there was a tiny dim light that was in me from my Catholic experience. THough the Catholics can mess things up they will also have some true representation of Christ somewhere along the way.

Even their statues and art expressed divinity. Seeing a bloke with long hair on a cross who was crucified for me. Though strange to a kid and adolescent that image and message sort of stuck in my subconscious I think. So when it was presented later as related to the conext of my life the penny dropped so to speak.

So I think though we both have Catholic backgrounds our personal journeys are different. But I reckon there were a fair few Catholic boys like me, I know because they still remained friends after school and they also rejected the church and God and went on their own way like the Prodigal son. Some were saved, some not. So I don't know why but its not just because of the CC.

Hans Blaster · Apr 2, 2025

stevevw said:
Yeah I think there are some similarities but also some differences. Though like you I had a negative experience there was something that stayed with me. In my darkest hours I still prayed sometimes. So something rubbed off and a seed was planted.

I completely moved away from the church. I mean I had never been in a position to choose as I was young. So when I could choose I never went to church or practiced religion.

So my salvation had nothing to do with the CC. It came much later and I was ready to accept Christ personally rather than because someone else was making me. But I think there was a tiny dim light that was in me from my Catholic experience. THough the Catholics can mess things up they will also have some true representation of Christ somewhere along the way.

Even their statues and art expressed divinity. Seeing a bloke with long hair on a cross who was crucified for me. Though strange to a kid and adolescent that image and message sort of stuck in my subconscious I think. So when it was presented later as related to the conext of my life the penny dropped so to speak.

So I think though we both have Catholic backgrounds our personal journeys are different. But I reckon there were a fair few Catholic boys like me, I know because they still remained friends after school and they also rejected the church and God and went on their own way like the Prodigal son. Some were saved, some not. So I don't know why but its not just because of the CC.

I'll reply because you still seem to be not getting it. The issue was about the "born again experience". Catholicism is not about such ecstatic experiences, nor are they seen as evidence that one is "saved" or "has the spirit".

BCP1928 · Apr 2, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
I'll reply because you still seem to be not getting it. The issue was about the "born again experience". Catholicism is not about such ecstatic experiences, nor are they seen as evidence that one is "saved" or "has the spirit".

The same with other Traditional Christians--Anglicans, Orthodox & Oriental--and most mainline Protestants as well. The "Born Again" experience is pretty much limited to Evangelical and Pentacostal denominations.

stevevw · Apr 3, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
I'll reply because you still seem to be not getting it. The issue was about the "born again experience". Catholicism is not about such ecstatic experiences, nor are they seen as evidence that one is "saved" or "has the spirit".

I there there are two different aspects which is religion and spirituality which is about being born again. So there the denominational identity under Christianity which may vary in its traditions or rituals but should align with the spiritual teachings of Christianity.

But technically a Catholic is a Christian in belief and not Mulsim or Hindu. A proetstant denomination is Christian. Though some are teetering on false teachings. United church, Pentecostal, Baptist ect are all Christians.

But some people can belomh to those denominations by family or upbringing and just relate to the traditions and rituals.

Really if there is any church that should be Christian its the Catholic church as their history traces back to Christ. But even they can push dogma rather than the gospel.

Isabelle30900 · Apr 3, 2025

NewTestamentChristian said:
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty (1 Corinthians 15:14).

If the Gospel were false, Stoicism and Confucian-Daoist philosophy represent humanity’s best hope for an ordered, virtuous, and meaningful life. They echo Jesus’ ethical teachings through natural reason and lived experience, offering guidance rooted in the sovereignty of God and the idea that God has ordered a moral universe. Stoicism offers virtue (arete/virtus) as the highest good, mastering control over our emotions (cultivate the healthy ones and learn how to tame the negative ones), rational thinking as a remedy to overthinking (those logismoi that bother us all... Evagrius Ponticus is a great writer on this), and surrender to the Divine Logos that orders all things. Confucianism and Daoism offer us moral cultivation through virtuous living, an ordered universe (The Five Relationships for example), an example that man can live up to, namely, the Junzi (Gentleman/Noble Man) and the Zhenren (True Person), and acceptance of the will of Tian (Heaven) regardless of whatever the outcomes may be. If Christ was not raised from the dead, His ethical framework would not be unimportant. But... Christ is the Son of God risen in three days as foretold by the Prophets. Christ is the fulfillment of all things. But hypothetically if He wasn't, man still must strive to do the good; We would either give into nihilism or relativism.

Isabelle30900 · Apr 3, 2025

regarding China, we need to know that at the beginning of its history, which starts after the flood to 1911 (the revolution with Sun Ya tsen at its head), it was Christian! Yes indeed. They believed in Shang Di, a unique God to whom they gave sacrifices at the top of a mountain. They didn’t want idols or statues…. It s written in their historical records that the astronomy experts observed an eclipse at Jesus death and then a rainbow at his resurrection. The emperor at that time wrote that a perfect man had given His life as a sacrifice. You can also see Genesis in their writings. Ex : a boat sign has altogether a boat, a mouth, number 8 and people!
The Bible, the Knowledge has been given to the whole world.
Now, it depends on each of us to recognize it with Love, compassion and spread it. There will always be people who will refuse His Grace. So, let’s pray for them and go ahead. Jesus wondered if He would find faith when He returns. So let’s show Him, we re here and we love Him

Hans Blaster · Apr 3, 2025

stevevw said:
I there there are two different aspects which is religion and spirituality which is about being born again. So there the denominational identity under Christianity which may vary in its traditions or rituals but should align with the spiritual teachings of Christianity.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHAT IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO CHRISTIANITY!!!!

As a self-professed former Catholic, you should be aware that the spiritual experiences of parishioners in "feeling the spirit" are not generally part of Catholic worship. Having a personal, reportable experience with the Holy Spirit is *NOT* a requirement to be or remain Catholic. The gospel notions of being "born again in Christ" are applied to sacramental events like baptism and confirmation. No Catholic is required to "feel this Spirit" in order that they reach salvation. As noted in another recent post, this is generally the case for many other branches of Christianity.

stevevw said:
But technically a Catholic is a Christian in belief and not Mulsim or Hindu. A proetstant denomination is Christian. Though some are teetering on false teachings. United church, Pentecostal, Baptist ect are all Christians.

But some people can belomh to those denominations by family or upbringing and just relate to the traditions and rituals.

Really if there is any church that should be Christian its the Catholic church as their history traces back to Christ. But even they can push dogma rather than the gospel.

Three paragraphs of irrelevant text. Please stick to relevant replies.

stevevw · Apr 3, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHAT IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO CHRISTIANITY!!!!

As a self-professed former Catholic, you should be aware that the spiritual experiences of parishioners in "feeling the spirit" are not generally part of Catholic worship. Having a personal, reportable experience with the Holy Spirit is *NOT* a requirement to be or remain Catholic. The gospel notions of being "born again in Christ" are applied to sacramental events like baptism and confirmation. No Catholic is required to "feel this Spirit" in order that they reach salvation. As noted in another recent post, this is generally the case for many other branches of Christianity.

Three paragraphs of irrelevant text. Please stick to relevant replies.

OK so I don't even think you understand the role of the spirit of God in basic Christianity. Catholics hold as central the teaching that unless one is born again they cannot enter the Kingdown of God. Considering this is a requirement I cannot see how no one is experiencing being born again and if so experience something as a result.

Are Catholics Born Again?
Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).

When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism.

Are Catholics Born Again?

Catholics and Evangelicals understand the term "born again" to mean something different. But who is right? We break it down for you.

www.catholic.com

Are Catholics “Born Again”?
Catholics believe in the necessity of being born again

Are Catholics “Born Again”?

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). My mother was Catholic and my father Baptist. My mother was firmly committed, as was my father after serious and prayerful consideration, to raise their children Catholic and...

integratedcatholiclife.org

Hans Blaster · Apr 3, 2025

stevevw said:
OK so I don't even think you understand the role of the spirit of God in basic Christianity. Catholics hold as central the teaching that unless one is born again they cannot enter the Kingdown of God. Considering this is a requirement I cannot see how no one is experiencing being born again and if so experience something as a result.

Steve, did you even read your own quotes?

stevevw said:
Are Catholics Born Again?
Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3).

No, not that one. This one --->

stevevw said:
When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism.

To a Catholic "born again" is what happens at baptism. No one remembers that. I was so young I could barely hold my head up. (4 weeks old).

stevevw said:
Are Catholics Born Again?

Catholics and Evangelicals understand the term "born again" to mean something different. But who is right? We break it down for you.

www.catholic.com

Are Catholics “Born Again”?
Catholics believe in the necessity of being born again

Are Catholics “Born Again”?

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). My mother was Catholic and my father Baptist. My mother was firmly committed, as was my father after serious and prayerful consideration, to raise their children Catholic and...

integratedcatholiclife.org

stevevw · Apr 4, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
Steve, did you even read your own quotes?

No, not that one. This one --->

To a Catholic "born again" is what happens at baptism. No one remembers that. I was so young I could barely hold my head up. (4 weeks old).

And if you read further it will clarify this.

Regeneration (being “born again”) is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17).

So being born again comes from a commitment in handing over to Christ and accepting Him into your heart. The new person has been born with Christ coming in. They are under Gods grace.

What the article is talking about is in reference to that by then commiting to baptism of water and the spirit to then recieve the holy spirit. This is biblical. Peter mentions this

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The people who Peter is talking to are saved born again Christians and not unsaved people.

So there is a transformation when we commit tio Christ and our hearts and minds are made new. Baptism is the confirmation of that and the further commitment of that.

Jermayn · Apr 4, 2025

NewTestamentChristian said:
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty (1 Corinthians 15:14).

If the Gospel were false, Stoicism and Confucian-Daoist philosophy represent humanity’s best hope for an ordered, virtuous, and meaningful life. They echo Jesus’ ethical teachings through natural reason and lived experience, offering guidance rooted in the sovereignty of God and the idea that God has ordered a moral universe. Stoicism offers virtue (arete/virtus) as the highest good, mastering control over our emotions (cultivate the healthy ones and learn how to tame the negative ones), rational thinking as a remedy to overthinking (those logismoi that bother us all... Evagrius Ponticus is a great writer on this), and surrender to the Divine Logos that orders all things. Confucianism and Daoism offer us moral cultivation through virtuous living, an ordered universe (The Five Relationships for example), an example that man can live up to, namely, the Junzi (Gentleman/Noble Man) and the Zhenren (True Person), and acceptance of the will of Tian (Heaven) regardless of whatever the outcomes may be. If Christ was not raised from the dead, His ethical framework would not be unimportant. But... Christ is the Son of God risen in three days as foretold by the Prophets. Christ is the fulfillment of all things. But hypothetically if He wasn't, man still must strive to do the good; We would either give into nihilism or relativism.

The very fact that we aren't all nihilists is, in itself, a powerful indication of God's existence. If the Gospel weren’t true, if we were nothing more than the products of chance and time, then things like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and self-control would make little sense. In a purely survival-driven world, the fruits of the Spirit wouldn’t be virtues, they’d be liabilities. Yet, we instinctively recognize them as good and aspire to them. That points to something greater.

Desk trauma · Apr 4, 2025

Jermayn said:
The very fact that we aren't all nihilists is, in itself, a powerful indication of God's existence. If the Gospel weren’t true, if we were nothing more than the products of chance and time, then things like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and self-control would make little sense. In a purely survival-driven world, the fruits of the Spirit wouldn’t be virtues, they’d be liabilities. Yet, we instinctively recognize them as good and aspire to them. That points to something greater.

…or points to the mundane reality that we’re social apes.

Jermayn · Apr 4, 2025

Desk trauma said:
…or points to the mundane reality that we’re social apes.

It's hard to explain truly selfless love, sacrificial kindness, or the desire for justice in purely evolutionary terms. Evolution, at its core, favors survival and replication, anything beyond that is either incidental or inconvenient to the process. But the virtues we often admire most, laying down your life for a stranger, forgiving your enemy, giving generously with no expectation of return, don’t serve those goals. They reflect something deeper. From a biblical perspective, that’s because humans are made in the image of God. We’re not just advanced animals, we’re moral, spiritual beings, created to reflect the character of our Creator. That’s something evolution alone can’t account for.

Desk trauma · Apr 4, 2025

Jermayn said:
It's hard to explain truly selfless love, sacrificial kindness, or the desire for justice in purely evolutionary terms. Evolution, at its core, favors survival and replication, anything beyond that is either incidental or inconvenient to the process. But the virtues we often admire most, laying down your life for a stranger, forgiving your enemy, giving generously with no expectation of return, don’t serve those goals. They reflect something deeper. From a biblical perspective, that’s because humans are made in the image of God. We’re not just advanced animals, we’re moral, spiritual beings, created to reflect the character of our Creator. That’s something evolution alone can’t account for.

So much verbiage to say “is not!”.

BCP1928 · Apr 4, 2025

Jermayn said:
It's hard to explain truly selfless love, sacrificial kindness, or the desire for justice in purely evolutionary terms. Evolution, at its core, favors survival and replication, anything beyond that is either incidental or inconvenient to the process. But the virtues we often admire most, laying down your life for a stranger, forgiving your enemy, giving generously with no expectation of return, don’t serve those goals. They reflect something deeper. From a biblical perspective, that’s because humans are made in the image of God. We’re not just advanced animals, we’re moral, spiritual beings, created to reflect the character of our Creator. That’s something evolution alone can’t account for.

And it doesn't try to. You have been pranked

Clare73 · Apr 4, 2025

Desk trauma said:
So much verbiage to say “is not!”.

In the world of intellect, it's called demonstration/proof of one's assertion, which demonstration/proof I suspect is the real object of your rejection.

Tinker Grey · Apr 4, 2025

Clare73 said:
In the world of intellect, it's called demonstration/proof of one's assertion, which demonstration/proof I suspect is the real object of your rejection.

There is no demonstration in @Desk trauma's interlocutor's post, only assertion. Thus, "is not" is a fair summary.

partinobodycular · Apr 4, 2025

Jermayn said:
It's hard to explain truly selfless love, sacrificial kindness, or the desire for justice in purely evolutionary terms. Evolution, at its core, favors survival and replication, anything beyond that is either incidental or inconvenient to the process. But the virtues we often admire most, laying down your life for a stranger, forgiving your enemy, giving generously with no expectation of return, don’t serve those goals.

All those human attributes that you find so admirable... we didn't choose them, evolution did. If evolution determined that aggression was the most reproductively successful strategy then I'd be beating your brains in right now. So if there's a God that you'd like to give thanks to for all of humanity's virtuous qualities, let me introduce you... @Jermayn meet evolution.

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