If the Gospel was False... What Then???

[stevevw]

And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty (1 Corinthians 15:14).

If the Gospel were false, Stoicism and Confucian-Daoist philosophy represent humanity’s best hope for an ordered, virtuous, and meaningful life. They echo Jesus’ ethical teachings through natural reason and lived experience, offering guidance rooted in the sovereignty of God and the idea that God has ordered a moral universe. Stoicism offers virtue (arete/virtus) as the highest good, mastering control over our emotions (cultivate the healthy ones and learn how to tame the negative ones), rational thinking as a remedy to overthinking (those logismoi that bother us all... Evagrius Ponticus is a great writer on this), and surrender to the Divine Logos that orders all things. Confucianism and Daoism offer us moral cultivation through virtuous living, an ordered universe (The Five Relationships for example), an example that man can live up to, namely, the Junzi (Gentleman/Noble Man) and the Zhenren (True Person), and acceptance of the will of Tian (Heaven) regardless of whatever the outcomes may be. If Christ was not raised from the dead, His ethical framework would not be unimportant. But... Christ is the Son of God risen in three days as foretold by the Prophets. Christ is the fulfillment of all things. But hypothetically if He wasn't, man still must strive to do the good; We would either give into nihilism or relativism.

The problem is we are fallen creatures uin need of salvation and the law or amy moral code itself is not enough t9o make us moral and rightious. We will always fall short.

In fact I think without Christ as fallen humans we will naturally be inclined to worship pagan gods that link creation itself into the gods. Most alternative beliefs are of poly gods and this is because theres a god for each aspect of nature. Or its a repeating of living a gradually more moral life in reincarnation by our own efforts.

But because they are more about the spiritual aspect rather than a clear and single God with a clear and single moral law and only one way to know God and be reconciled to Him these alternative gods end up being more spiritual and vague. They leave open for pagan spirituality about rituals, worshipping the spirits of nature and demand a strict life which binds people up in the law itself.

Rather than a personal relationship with a redeemer who walked the earth, is relatable and is the direct doorway to God that brings God down to us rather than making the gods some distant icon we must worship and ritualitically follow in order to be made right.

Thats why you see so many icons and idols in these religions. They need mirrors and icons to reflerct evil spirits and evoke good spirits. Everything is held together with rules and behaviour to keep evil away and bring rightiousness.

Paul mentions this when he tells people that the gods and idols they worship are just that, made of stone and wood and have no godly power. That his God was a living God who had relations with people.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The problem is we are fallen creatures uin need of salvation and the law or amy moral code itself is not enough t9o make us moral and rightious. We will always fall short.

In fact I think without Christ as fallen humans we will naturally be inclined to worship pagan gods that link creation itself into the gods. Most alternative beliefs are of poly gods and this is because theres a god for each aspect of nature. Or its a repeating of living a gradually more moral life in reincarnation by our own efforts.

Most of us get up again, you're never going to keep us down.

But because they are more about the spiritual aspect rather than a clear and single God with a clear and single moral law and only one way to know God and be reconciled to Him these alternative gods end up being more spiritual and vague. They leave open for pagan spirituality about rituals, worshipping the spirits of nature and demand a strict life which binds people up in the law itself.

Or they don't care about "the spiritual".

Rather than a personal relationship with a redeemer who walked the earth, is relatable and is the direct doorway to God that brings God down to us rather than making the gods some distant icon we must worship and ritualitically follow in order to be made right.

I never found Jesus to be "relatable" or to have a "personal relationship" with a divine being.

Thats why you see so many icons and idols in these religions. They need mirrors and icons to reflerct evil spirits and evoke good spirits. Everything is held together with rules and behaviour to keep evil away and bring rightiousness.

Paul mentions this when he tells people that the gods and idols they worship are just that, made of stone and wood and have no godly power. That his God was a living God who had relations with people.

 

[stevevw]

Most of us get up again, you're never going to keep us down.

And many don't and thats the problem. A naturalistic or human created moral system will always put ones own feelings and preferences over the grater good. We have proved that by how we actually live.

Or they don't care about "the spiritual".

Yes and thats the problem as spirituality is a part of being human.

I never found Jesus to be "relatable" or to have a "personal relationship" with a divine being.

How cab He be unrelatable. Out of all beliegs He is the only God who has come to earth and we see who God is. Personal relationships require a personal commitment in faith. You can't have a relationship with someone if you don't trust them and commit to them.

 

[Hans Blaster]

And many don't and thats the problem. A naturalistic or human created moral system will always put ones own feelings and preferences over the grater good. We have proved that by how we actually live.

All human moral systems are created by humans.

Yes and thats the problem as spirituality is a part of being human.

So you say, but I have no interest in "spirituality". Why should I?

How cab He be unrelatable. Out of all beliegs He is the only God who has come to earth and we see who God is.

That's quite a claim and I don't buy it.

Personal relationships require a personal commitment in faith. You can't have a relationship with someone if you don't trust them and commit to them.

Relationships with dead people are hard.

 

[stevevw]

All human moral systems are created by humans.

Well thats up for debate when you consider we are born moralists. So its in our bones so to speak and we have no choice but to make moral systems.

But I was speaking about the difference between moral systems grounded in naturalistic ideas as opposed to transcedent ones such as in God or gods or maybe some sort of consciousness that prevades the universe ect. One limits moral systems to this world and all the human ideas limited to this world and the other transcends this.

When its limited to the naturalistic world it will be about naturalism like human desires, feelings and preferences, conceptions of human wellbeing, science as some have tried and even nature itself such as evolution.

The metaphysical basis is different. Ones naturalistic and the other transcends this. One is limited to human fallibility and the tendency to be selfish and self decieve. While the other is in infallible God who claims to be the truth above all other ways.

So you say, but I have no interest in "spirituality". Why should I?

That's quite a claim and I don't buy it.

Because it is a well known and long established fact that humans have a spiritual aspect to them and its a vital part of being human. You ought to be concerned because it would be like not being concerned about other aspects of humans like their mental and physical health.

Maslows hierarchy of human needs has been a long established theory of human needs.

The spiritual needs are at the top of the hierarchy as the ultimate need after beginning at the basic physical needs like food and shelter and moving up through the love and belonging and esteem needs to self actualisation and the transcedent and spiritual needs beyong self.

8. Transcendence needs — You are motivated by values that go beyond the personal self. Examples include supernatural experiences, nature experiences, aesthetic experiences, sexual experiences, service to others, religious faith, and the pursuit of science.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs is a motivational theory in psychology proposed by Abraham Maslow. It organizes human needs into five levels: physiological, safety, love and belonging, esteem, and self-actualization. Often visualized as a pyramid, this hierarchy suggests that human motivation...

www.simplypsychology.org

Spiritual augmentation therapy is a very successful therapy in improving health and wellbeing. Belong to a church and religion increases health and wellbeing. The spiritual aspect of humans is as vital as the need for love and shelter.

Relationships with dead people are hard.

Lol I like your sense of humor. Actually its not as crazy as you think. We often here someone say I am doing it for my deceased parent or sibling or friend when they achieve something great. The spirit of that person lives on in others and motivates them. They still have a kind of relationship with deceased people that can actually change their behaviour.

Its a similar principle except Christ is alive and kicking. THose who have relationship with Christ speak of being directed, being made aware, guiding their life, rebuking their behaviour and actually people change their lives. So theres a sort of two way communication going on with the Holy Spirit which Christ said He would send to have relationship with us and teach and reveal things to Christiaans

So obviously you are going to say this is madness, people talking to themselves and imagining voices in their heads. Its really a one way relationship with an imaginary friend like kids do when they play lol.

But Christians will testify different and their lives will actually show results from that relationship. They will act in ways like having a relationship such as with a mentor who may guide them to do things they would not normally do or that even humans would not normally do without God. So we can see the tangible effects.

 

[stevevw]

Most of us get up again, you're never going to keep us down.

Sorry I had to. It just sounded too much like a song.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Sorry I had to. It just sounded too much like a song.

A song, yes, a good one, no. (you correctly IDed it).

 

[com7fy8]

If the Gospel were untrue but we do have the Bible and the believers we have >

We have been good at fooling ourselves.

And I would say someone made everything and is very imaginative to have humans doing all the things we do, including believing the Bible. And someone changed me from being only about pleasure and people whom I used to get my pleasures. And now to be loving, instead, is so more sweet and pleasant and satisfying. I did not make this up; so someone invisible got me into this.

So, if there is no Gospel end-purpose > Romans 8:29 > we could be just one gigantic video game for whoever really is God . . . playing good against evil. And you might get nowhere with some philosophy, if the real God finds things entertaining enough as is.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Well thats up for debate when you consider we are born moralists.

Moral instincts and moral systems are not the same thing.

So its in our bones so to speak and we have no choice but to make moral systems.

Yes, Humans make morals systems driven by their moral instincts.

But I was speaking about the difference between moral systems grounded in naturalistic ideas as opposed to transcedent ones such as in God or gods or maybe some sort of consciousness that prevades the universe ect. One limits moral systems to this world and all the human ideas limited to this world and the other transcends this.

When its limited to the naturalistic world it will be about naturalism like human desires, feelings and preferences, conceptions of human wellbeing, science as some have tried and even nature itself such as evolution.

The metaphysical basis is different. Ones naturalistic and the other transcends this. One is limited to human fallibility and the tendency to be selfish and self decieve. While the other is in infallible God who claims to be the truth above all other ways.

Let's deal with that "spiritual" thing.

Because it is a well known and long established fact that humans have a spiritual aspect to them and its a vital part of being human. You ought to be concerned because it would be like not being concerned about other aspects of humans like their mental and physical health.

Mental and physical health are well defined. "Spritual" is not, nor is demonstrated.'

Maslows hierarchy of human needs has been a long established theory of human needs.

The spiritual needs are at the top of the hierarchy as the ultimate need after beginning at the basic physical needs like food and shelter and moving up through the love and belonging and esteem needs to self actualisation and the transcedent and spiritual needs beyong self.

8. Transcendence needs — You are motivated by values that go beyond the personal self. Examples include supernatural experiences, nature experiences, aesthetic experiences, sexual experiences, service to others, religious faith, and the pursuit of science.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs is a motivational theory in psychology proposed by Abraham Maslow. It organizes human needs into five levels: physiological, safety, love and belonging, esteem, and self-actualization. Often visualized as a pyramid, this hierarchy suggests that human motivation...

www.simplypsychology.org

Spiritual augmentation therapy is a very successful therapy in improving health and wellbeing. Belong to a church and religion increases health and wellbeing. The spiritual aspect of humans is as vital as the need for love and shelter.

Belonging to a church didn't give me well being or increase my health. Quite the opposite.

Lol I like your sense of humor. Actually its not as crazy as you think. We often here someone say I am doing it for my deceased parent or sibling or friend when they achieve something great. The spirit of that person lives on in others and motivates them. They still have a kind of relationship with deceased people that can actually change their behaviour.

Its a similar principle except Christ is alive and kicking. THose who have relationship with Christ speak of being directed, being made aware, guiding their life, rebuking their behaviour and actually people change their lives. So theres a sort of two way communication going on with the Holy Spirit which Christ said He would send to have relationship with us and teach and reveal things to Christiaans

This is not an experience I had, nor does it match anything anyone else I knew described.

So obviously you are going to say this is madness, people talking to themselves and imagining voices in their heads. Its really a one way relationship with an imaginary friend like kids do when they play lol.

You can put it that way, but I didn't.

But Christians will testify different and their lives will actually show results from that relationship. They will act in ways like having a relationship such as with a mentor who may guide them to do things they would not normally do or that even humans would not normally do without God. So we can see the tangible effects.

My mentors gave actual feedback.

 

[stevevw]

Moral instincts and moral systems are not the same thing.

Yes but they are connected. If we are born with a moral sense then logically that is going to be used as the basis for a moral system.

Yes, Humans make morals systems driven by their moral instincts.

But its not because of evolution, or biology. A moral sense cannot be genetically passed on. To the atheist moral relativist morals are socially and culturally created and there is no objective basis for morality.

A culture can create a moral system that can be the opposite of another cultures created moral system and both would be classed a moral systems within the heading of relative and subjective morality.

Let's deal with that "spiritual" thing.

Mental and physical health are well defined. "Spritual" is not, nor is demonstrated.'

The spiritual influence has been demonstrated. The fact that those with belief do better in studies across multiple measures of health and wellbeing, including child rearing and outcomes is the defining factor.

Its not the better cognition or psychology that is causing the better outcomes but the spiritual aspect making the psychology and cognition have better outcomes. The added dimension of spirituality in like for like cases was the defining factor that made the difference with all things being equal.

Belonging to a church didn't give me well being or increase my health. Quite the opposite.

Lol, ok I guess it depends on individuals. But just because it did not happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen for others. I mentioned before about the spirit of something that is beyond feelings or objective measures.

Like an epiphenomena in some ways. The synergy of fellowship which lifes people beyond the mental and physical. Our minds can accend into the transcedent and find peace and serentity that is not found in the deterministic processes.

This is not an experience I had, nor does it match anything anyone else I knew described.

Well obviously because your not associating with Christians. You are not a Christian. You would not hang with Christians who have had that experience. So you friends are going to be non Christians or maybe Christians who had a similart experience to you. But if you do know of any CHristians they will have had this experience.

But my point was that have you ever tapped into a deceased relative or maybe a good cause and use the spirit of that person or what the cause represents as the uniting factor that uplifts everyone to go beyond.

I remember seeing a doco on the guy who feel down the crevass and broke his led and was left for dead. He crawled on his belly down Mt Everest into base camp. He said he was calling on all sorts of spirits that took him beyond his physical and mental capacity. His wife, his kids, even the guy who left him to see them again. This is the spirit I am talking about that all humans have and need.

You can put it that way, but I didn't.

I am doing it for your lol. Thats unless you acknowledge there is a spiritual aspect to humans that goes beyong the physical and mental. Otherwise you will inevitable have to consider this the works of a vivid imagination or some deep subconscious evolutionary mechanism. Put it this way I'd be surprised if you didn't.

My mentors gave actual feedback.

Ah sdo does the Holy Spirit. Afterall it inspired the bible. It jsut may not be an audible voice. BUt nevertheless a voice or revelation just like you have been told by a mentor.

Why do you think people will uproot themselves believing that have been called to be a missionary for example or to help someone which leads to their conversion. Or prayers are answered which all work for good and not some delusion which would bring bad fruit. If it works it works.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Well obviously because your not associating with Christians.

That's a weird thing to say

You are not a Christian. You would not hang with Christians who have had that experience.

Do my 20 years in the pews mean nothing? Are my still very Catholic family nothing?

So you friends are going to be non Christians or maybe Christians who had a similart experience to you.

I have no idea if my friends are Christians or not for the most part. I do not care. We say friends because we *don't* discuss religion.

But if you do know of any CHristians they will have had this experience.

All of your assumptions are false here.

But my point was that have you ever tapped into a deceased relative or maybe a good cause and use the spirit of that person or what the cause represents as the uniting factor that uplifts everyone to go beyond.

What?

I remember seeing a doco on the guy who feel down the crevass and broke his led and was left for dead. He crawled on his belly down Mt Everest into base camp. He said he was calling on all sorts of spirits that took him beyond his physical and mental capacity. His wife, his kids, even the guy who left him to see them again. This is the spirit I am talking about that all humans have and need.

Some guy had visions of living people and that is "spirits". No wonder I don't have any time for such things.

 

[stevevw]

That's a weird thing to say

Why, its logic. You said you or those you knew never had such an experience. Obviously Christians have such an experience. So none of the people you knew were Christians.

Do my 20 years in the pews mean nothing? Are my still very Catholic family nothing?

If you say you did not experience being born again then you did not experience being born again. Family is different as you have to hand with them regardless lol.

I have no idea if my friends are Christians or not for the most part. I do not care. We say friends because we *don't* discuss religion.

But you said the people you knew never experienced being born again. How did you know that if you never discussed religion.

All of your assumptions are false here.

Ah, you can't be a Christian unless you are born again. Its not an assumption.

What?

You said you have never experienced the spirit of God. I was trying to describe something similar but not as great as the spirit of God which is priniciply similar.

When people say the spirit of the team, or the spirit of the group was strong. Or it lifted my spirits. This is a small example of how the spirit of something can actually motivate and enpower people. You may want to call it feelings but its more than feelings

Some guy had visions of living people and that is "spirits". No wonder I don't have any time for such things.

Not spirit as in a ghost lol. Spirit as in a state of being that you can tap into. Like team spirit which is a force that people will tap into to lift the team beyond what they can normally do. Of ten at least with my footy team they have a particular culture which was laid down by earlier footy warriors who represented the club.

Each club has its history and legends and has developed a culture that will reflect certain qualities like courage, or fighting for a win to the last minute, or lead by example. So this spirit is used by current players to tap into to inspire them beyond their physical capabilities.

Some may attribute this to the power of positive thinking. But the point is its using a non physical aspect to inspire and cause people to go beyond the physical.

Lessons from Sports: How Team Spirit Can Lead to Success

Lessons from Sports: How Team Spirit Can Lead to Success - English Plus Podcast

Discover how team spirit, rooted in unity, trust, support, and communication, can lead to success in various areas of life. Explore the key components and benefits of team spirit, debunk common misconceptions, and test your knowledge with a quiz.

englishpluspodcast.com

Feeling the Spirit of Someone Who Has Died

Feeling the Spirit of Someone Who Has Died

There's no scientific proof this happens, but for the grieving, the thought of connecting with a loved one can be a coping mechanism

www.nextavenue.org

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes but they are connected. If we are born with a moral sense then logically that is going to be used as the basis for a moral system.

But its not because of evolution, or biology. A moral sense cannot be genetically passed on. To the atheist moral relativist morals are socially and culturally created and there is no objective basis for morality.

A culture can create a moral system that can be the opposite of another cultures created moral system and both would be classed a moral systems within the heading of relative and subjective morality.

There is already a nature of morals thread. Two is too many by at least one. I'll defer any such replies to that thread.

The spiritual influence has been demonstrated. The fact that those with belief do better in studies across multiple measures of health and wellbeing, including child rearing and outcomes is the defining factor.

Its not the better cognition or psychology that is causing the better outcomes but the spiritual aspect making the psychology and cognition have better outcomes. The added dimension of spirituality in like for like cases was the defining factor that made the difference with all things being equal.

But what is "spiritual influence" or "spiritual aspect"?

Lol, ok I guess it depends on individuals.

You think my negative experience in church is "funny"?

But just because it did not happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen for others. I mentioned before about the spirit of something that is beyond feelings or objective measures.

Like an epiphenomena in some ways. The synergy of fellowship which lifes people beyond the mental and physical.

What "fellowship"?

Our minds can accend into the transcedent and find peace and serentity that is not found in the deterministic processes.

What does this mean?

Well obviously because your not associating with Christians. You are not a Christian. You would not hang with Christians who have had that experience. So you friends are going to be non Christians or maybe Christians who had a similart experience to you. But if you do know of any CHristians they will have had this experience.

But my point was that have you ever tapped into a deceased relative or maybe a good cause and use the spirit of that person or what the cause represents as the uniting factor that uplifts everyone to go beyond.

I remember seeing a doco on the guy who feel down the crevass and broke his led and was left for dead. He crawled on his belly down Mt Everest into base camp. He said he was calling on all sorts of spirits that took him beyond his physical and mental capacity. His wife, his kids, even the guy who left him to see them again. This is the spirit I am talking about that all humans have and need.

[I replied to this part in my previous post.]

I am doing it for your lol. Thats unless you acknowledge there is a spiritual aspect to humans that goes beyong the physical and mental. Otherwise you will inevitable have to consider this the works of a vivid imagination or some deep subconscious evolutionary mechanism. Put it this way I'd be surprised if you didn't.

What is this "beyond physical and mental"? How is it demonstrated?

Ah sdo does the Holy Spirit. Afterall it inspired the bible. It jsut may not be an audible voice. BUt nevertheless a voice or revelation just like you have been told by a mentor.

No "holy spirit" ever communicated with me.

Why do you think people will uproot themselves believing that have been called to be a missionary for example or to help someone which leads to their conversion. Or prayers are answered which all work for good and not some delusion which would bring bad fruit. If it works it works.

Prayers have been demonstrably answered? I don't recall that ever being demonstrated.

 

[stevevw]

There is already a nature of morals thread. Two is too many by at least one. I'll defer any such replies to that thread.

So your quite happy to engage in such talk about the nature of morality until you choose to make it irrelevant.

But what is "spiritual influence" or "spiritual aspect"?

Its something beyond the deterministic processes. A bit like consciousness. Spirit is like spirit. Its a non physical aspect about something that can motivate and change behaviour. Its the search for meaning, purpose and the connection to something beyond the physical realm.

Spirituality is a significant and universal aspect of human experience. The specific content of spiritual belief, practice, and experience varies, but all cultures have a concept of an ultimate, transcendent, sacred, or divine force (Peterson and Seligman, 2004). Spirituality is consistently defined by scientists as the search for, or communion with, the sacred (Pargament et al., 2013b). This has become nearly a consensual definition among scientists in the study of spirituality as this definition is reflected in approximately two-thirds of studies on the topic (Kapuscinski and Masters, 2010).

Embedded in this definition are three core concepts – the sacred or the transcendent (beyond the ordinary), a connection or relationship with the sacred, and the search for ultimate meaning or purpose (Mayseless and Russo-Netzer, 2017). In this way, spirituality could be both a result of meaning/purpose or the source of meaning/purpose. The word “sacred” most commonly refers to God, higher power, divinity, or qualities associated with the divine, such as transcendence, ultimacy, boundlessness, and deep connectedness.

Frontiers | The Decoding of the Human Spirit: A Synergy of Spirituality and Character Strengths Toward Wholeness

Little attention has been given to the integral relationship between character strengths and spirituality (the search for or communing with the sacred to der...

www.frontiersin.org

You think my negative experience in church is "funny"?

No of course not. If you noticed I qualified this as being individual. Meaning some people will experience salvation and being born again and others in the exact same situation will experience the opposite and even a negative experience that is completely counter to salvation.

That in itself is a oxymoron.

What "fellowship"?

The paper I linked should explain this. Its synergy, when a group who are in unity and focused on the spirit of whatever it is they are doing that the group dynamics and interconnected beliefs can achieve more than physically or mentally possible without that spirit.

You may see it occassionally in how a sports team or individual who were not rated as the best somehow fight and overcome the odds to be the best. They are tapping iunto a spirit that is beyond their individualor teams physical and mental ability to overcome.

What does this mean?

It means exactly what it says. Imagine say all hope is lost and the physical odds are against the person. They can with belief and consciousness take themselves into a realm or place beyond their physical surroundings to find a peace. Even in dying. But this has often been the difference between living and dying in that like the guy who crawled down Mt Everest had to overcome the physical reality of dying on the mountain.

It was his spirit, the transcendent aspect of reality that took his mind beyond the physical and allowed him to keep going and live. Others may have given up without that aspect if they were just focused on the physical and mental. They cannot sustain such limited aspects without it taking a toll. You could say its the power of positive thinking. But its beyond that as well.

What is this "beyond physical and mental"? How is it demonstrated?

Its demoinstrated whenever someone overcomes the physical and mental to achieve great heights beyond what would be considered based on the physical and mental. Its demonstrated in how the climber survived against the odds. Or how a underdog beats the champs.

But its also demonstrated fundementally by any experience. The experience of love can cause someone to sacrifice their life for another. The experience of music can move a person to change, the experience of pain or colors or awe in a sunset of night sky that makes you feel a part of something greater beyond yourself. Which then can be the basis for changing behaviour or getting a deeper understanding of reality.

None of this is caused by the physical firing of brain neurons or deterministic processes that cause physical reactions and responsese.

No "holy spirit" ever communicated with me.

I think its a bit like our conscience. Except the holy spirit makes the conscience in tune with God. So a God conscience or consciousness. Everything is magnified towards God, His word, Christs teachings, and Gods law and order.

Thats why the bible says, 'be still and know that I am God'. Or some look but do not see and listen but do not hear. Or the things of God is foolishness to the world.

These are getting at a kind of paradigm or worldview that is geared to a particular way of percieving everything. So technically I think Gods spirit is know to a certain extent by our conscience. God says that even those before the law knew the law by their conscience. That we have knowledge of God in His creation and the unseen things.

So its really tapping into that same weak signal of God we all experience. So belief in God through Christ as the living example and testimony is the key to unlocking this more completely. By inviting God in the this brings us back in tune with God consciousness and we will hear and see the things of God more clearly.

I know it sounds far fetched and I don't really think any attempt to explain this in worldly terms does it justice. But its real for many Christians and the fact that the bible is telling us that without Christ and the holy spirit we can be blind and death to this tells us that its a certain disposition and belief state that the world or rationality and science cannot explain.

Prayers have been demonstrably answered? I don't recall that ever being demonstrated.

It has its just that skeptics will say it was caused by some physical anomely or unknown physical explanation. But there is plenty of evidence that sick and dying people were cured and the doctors had no explanation.

There is also testimony of people or groups praying and that thing happening. Whether that be getting money for a cause, praying for a certain outcome. The believers testify that it was prayer. But skeptics will say it was coincient or imagination. Sometimes overcoming great odds.

The Astonishing True Stories Behind the Cokeville Miracle Movie

The Astonishing True Stories Behind the Cokeville Miracle Movie

EDITOR’S NOTE: This article discusses a traumatic event where death and injuries occurred. While we have made every effort to avoid graphic language, this article might be disturbing for some readers.

www.ldsliving.com

 

[Hans Blaster]

So your quite happy to engage in such talk about the nature of morality until you choose to make it irrelevant.

Its something beyond the deterministic processes. A bit like consciousness. Spirit is like spirit.

A tautology.

Its a non physical aspect about something that can motivate and change behaviour. Its the search for meaning, purpose and the connection to something beyond the physical realm.

So it is some sort of psychology thing.

Spirituality is a significant and universal aspect of human experience. The specific content of spiritual belief, practice, and experience varies, but all cultures have a concept of an ultimate, transcendent, sacred, or divine force (Peterson and Seligman, 2004). Spirituality is consistently defined by scientists as the search for, or communion with, the sacred (Pargament et al., 2013b). This has become nearly a consensual definition among scientists in the study of spirituality as this definition is reflected in approximately two-thirds of studies on the topic (Kapuscinski and Masters, 2010).

Embedded in this definition are three core concepts – the sacred or the transcendent (beyond the ordinary), a connection or relationship with the sacred, and the search for ultimate meaning or purpose (Mayseless and Russo-Netzer, 2017). In this way, spirituality could be both a result of meaning/purpose or the source of meaning/purpose. The word “sacred” most commonly refers to God, higher power, divinity, or qualities associated with the divine, such as transcendence, ultimacy, boundlessness, and deep connectedness.

Frontiers | The Decoding of the Human Spirit: A Synergy of Spirituality and Character Strengths Toward Wholeness

Little attention has been given to the integral relationship between character strengths and spirituality (the search for or communing with the sacred to der...

www.frontiersin.org

Why do all of the links go to the reference section of some sort of academic paper?

No of course not. If you noticed I qualified this as being individual.

That individual was me. Keep that in mind.

Meaning some people will experience salvation and being born again and others in the exact same situation will experience the opposite and even a negative experience that is completely counter to salvation.

The opposite? Will some experience "damnation"?

That in itself is a oxymoron.

Not in the slightest.

The paper I linked should explain this. Its synergy, when a group who are in unity and focused on the spirit of whatever it is they are doing that the group dynamics and interconnected beliefs can achieve more than physically or mentally possible without that spirit.

You may see it occassionally in how a sports team or individual who were not rated as the best somehow fight and overcome the odds to be the best. They are tapping iunto a spirit that is beyond their individualor teams physical and mental ability to overcome.

This is "fellowship"? Not sure what your point is here.

It means exactly what it says. Imagine say all hope is lost and the physical odds are against the person. They can with belief and consciousness take themselves into a realm or place beyond their physical surroundings to find a peace. Even in dying. But this has often been the difference between living and dying in that like the guy who crawled down Mt Everest had to overcome the physical reality of dying on the mountain.

It was his spirit, the transcendent aspect of reality that took his mind beyond the physical and allowed him to keep going and live. Others may have given up without that aspect if they were just focused on the physical and mental. They cannot sustain such limited aspects without it taking a toll. You could say its the power of positive thinking. But its beyond that as well.

Its demoinstrated whenever someone overcomes the physical and mental to achieve great heights beyond what would be considered based on the physical and mental. Its demonstrated in how the climber survived against the odds. Or how a underdog beats the champs.

We used to call this "wishful thinking".

But its also demonstrated fundementally by any experience. The experience of love can cause someone to sacrifice their life for another. The experience of music can move a person to change, the experience of pain or colors or awe in a sunset of night sky that makes you feel a part of something greater beyond yourself. Which then can be the basis for changing behaviour or getting a deeper understanding of reality.

None of this is caused by the physical firing of brain neurons or deterministic processes that cause physical reactions and responsese.

You know this for sure? No neurons were involved?

I think its a bit like our conscience. Except the holy spirit makes the conscience in tune with God. So a God conscience or consciousness. Everything is magnified towards God, His word, Christs teachings, and Gods law and order.

Thats why the bible says, 'be still and know that I am God'. Or some look but do not see and listen but do not hear. Or the things of God is foolishness to the world.

These are getting at a kind of paradigm or worldview that is geared to a particular way of percieving everything. So technically I think Gods spirit is know to a certain extent by our conscience. God says that even those before the law knew the law by their conscience. That we have knowledge of God in His creation and the unseen things.

So its really tapping into that same weak signal of God we all experience. So belief in God through Christ as the living example and testimony is the key to unlocking this more completely. By inviting God in the this brings us back in tune with God consciousness and we will hear and see the things of God more clearly.

I know it sounds far fetched and I don't really think any attempt to explain this in worldly terms does it justice. But its real for many Christians and the fact that the bible is telling us that without Christ and the holy spirit we can be blind and death to this tells us that its a certain disposition and belief state that the world or rationality and science cannot explain.

If that is "holy spirit" no wonder I have no experience of it.

It has its just that skeptics will say it was caused by some physical anomely or unknown physical explanation. But there is plenty of evidence that sick and dying people were cured and the doctors had no explanation.

There is also testimony of people or groups praying and that thing happening. Whether that be getting money for a cause, praying for a certain outcome. The believers testify that it was prayer. But skeptics will say it was coincient or imagination. Sometimes overcoming great odds.

The Astonishing True Stories Behind the Cokeville Miracle Movie

The Astonishing True Stories Behind the Cokeville Miracle Movie

EDITOR’S NOTE: This article discusses a traumatic event where death and injuries occurred. While we have made every effort to avoid graphic language, this article might be disturbing for some readers.

www.ldsliving.com

What was the point of that?

 

[stevevw]

A tautology.

I don't even know how this applies. You just said they are two different things. Now your saying they are the same.

So it is some sort of psychology thing.

Its actually beyond psychology and cognitions and emotions. It usually is what overcomes when the psychology is limiting. When people are telling themselves they cannot make it or achieve it. Believing in something beyond the limitations of the mind.

You can have as much positive thinking as you want. But on its own we are just as supceptible to negative emotions and probably more so. Especially when your physically exspended or extended as the weakening body zaps all positivity and keeps replacing it with the negative.

So reaching beyond this to some transcedent basis is what takes you beyond the physical and mental limitations that are subject to deterministic processes.

Why do all of the links go to the reference section of some sort of academic paper?

Because they are from the paper I linked at the bottom of those paragraphs.

That individual was me. Keep that in mind.

Yes but I am speaking logically and not personally. A Christian by definition is born again and experiences Gods spirit. So those who don't are by definition not Christians. If they claim to be a Christian and have not had this experience of being born again in Gods spirit then logically they are not Christians.

The opposite? Will some experience "damnation"?

Do you mean like Catholic guilt lol. How the church use to preach fire and brimestone and scared the living daylights out of some. Especially kids.

Not in the slightest.

What that some can experience damnation and bad experiences from hearing the gospel. The gospel is not about damnation and bad experiences. Its suppose to be the most significantly good thing that happens to a person.

Christ says we will have abundence of life and peace that surpasses this world. Thats a good experience not a bad one. So the gospel cannot work against itself. It can't be giving true peace and joy while also giving a bad or negative experience.

This is "fellowship"? Not sure what your point is here.

It doesn't matter now. I was trying to explain how the spirit of something works. How it is something beyond the limits of material processes. I was using how a group of people united towards a cause or goal can achieve greater things by tapping into the spiritual aspect. That which is beyond them be it a god or in honor of someone or some cause or tapping into the spirit of past heroes or principles worth fighting for.

The point was that this spiritual aspect is transcedent to the material world and yet can greatly change things. Have an influence and effect on the world. That this is sort of similar but not exactly like the spirit of God working in ones life. It is a source of something beyond the world that can change people and outcomes.

We used to call this "wishful thinking".

There you go. Your dismissing alternative ways of knowing as wishful thinking. Like I said you think anyone who believes such things is unreal and deluded. Its just wishful thinking and theres nothing real about it. Well many disagree. It actually has a tangible influence and results in making a difference beyond wishful thinking.

You know this for sure? No neurons were involved?

They were involved or activated by the experience. But they were not the experience itself. Its physically impossible. Neurons are just correlations and correlations don't account for the nature of experience. Its a different category altoigether and belongs in the qualitative aspects of reality.

You won't be able to find any experience in X, Y and Z neurons. They cannot get spiritual, or have belief, or experience love and other transcedent aspects. It would be like saying the pixels on a computer screen is the actual person in the screen. The vibrations of a guitar string are the experience of the song. The deterministic processes cannot account for this.

If that is "holy spirit" no wonder I have no experience of it.

Its not exactly like the holy spirit but a small window into some aspects and even then its not exactly the same. But in principle it is about our conscience. That we all know of God and His moral law but this can be hard to see and hear with the noise of modern rationalism.

What was the point of that?

To give an example of a real life event where pray was involved and miraculous things happened. That people have no explanation for. To the believers this is evidence of God. To the skeptic and atheist is in their imagination.

How the evidence in some ways is already there but is fonbbed away as superstition, imagination, a trick by evolution to survive ect. To show we have two comepletely different outlooks and assumptions which is behind what is classed as evidence or not and that just because some say its imagination doesn't mean its imagination. But the dogma of the material worldview of scientism claims superior truth over all other ways of experiencing and knowing reality.

 

[Yarddog]

And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty (1 Corinthians 15:14).

If the Gospel were false, Stoicism and Confucian-Daoist philosophy represent humanity’s best hope for an ordered, virtuous, and meaningful life. They echo Jesus’ ethical teachings through natural reason and lived experience, offering guidance rooted in the sovereignty of God and the idea that God has ordered a moral universe. Stoicism offers virtue (arete/virtus) as the highest good, mastering control over our emotions (cultivate the healthy ones and learn how to tame the negative ones), rational thinking as a remedy to overthinking (those logismoi that bother us all... Evagrius Ponticus is a great writer on this), and surrender to the Divine Logos that orders all things. Confucianism and Daoism offer us moral cultivation through virtuous living, an ordered universe (The Five Relationships for example), an example that man can live up to, namely, the Junzi (Gentleman/Noble Man) and the Zhenren (True Person), and acceptance of the will of Tian (Heaven) regardless of whatever the outcomes may be. If Christ was not raised from the dead, His ethical framework would not be unimportant. But... Christ is the Son of God risen in three days as foretold by the Prophets. Christ is the fulfillment of all things. But hypothetically if He wasn't, man still must strive to do the good; We would either give into nihilism or relativism.

Why? If Jesus isn't who the Gospel says he is, nothing matters.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I don't even know how this applies. You just said they are two different things. Now your saying they are the same.

You literally said 'spirit is like spirit'. That is very much a tautology and completely useless as a "definition".

Its actually beyond psychology and cognitions and emotions. It usually is what overcomes when the psychology is limiting. When people are telling themselves they cannot make it or achieve it. Believing in something beyond the limitations of the mind.

You can have as much positive thinking as you want. But on its own we are just as supceptible to negative emotions and probably more so. Especially when your physically exspended or extended as the weakening body zaps all positivity and keeps replacing it with the negative.

So reaching beyond this to some transcedent basis is what takes you beyond the physical and mental limitations that are subject to deterministic processes.

Because they are from the paper I linked at the bottom of those paragraphs.

Yes but I am speaking logically and not personally. A Christian by definition is born again and experiences Gods spirit. So those who don't are by definition not Christians. If they claim to be a Christian and have not had this experience of being born again in Gods spirit then logically they are not Christians.

You tell me it isn't personal, but then immediately tell me I wasn't a Christian. Watch yourself. You know from *recent* conversation that i was never "born again", so now you are denying my prior religious commitment. (And that of many others I knew.)

Do you mean like Catholic guilt lol. How the church use to preach fire and brimestone and scared the living daylights out of some. Especially kids.

What that some can experience damnation and bad experiences from hearing the gospel. The gospel is not about damnation and bad experiences. Its suppose to be the most significantly good thing that happens to a person.

No, not like "Catholic guilt". You claimed that those that didn't experience "born again" would experience this "damnation" like it was some sort of thing you could feel. I never experience either (or any other thing extraordinary or "transcendent" things relating to my practice of religion.

Christ says we will have abundence of life and peace that surpasses this world. Thats a good experience not a bad one. So the gospel cannot work against itself. It can't be giving true peace and joy while also giving a bad or negative experience.

Are you making an argument against the usefulness of the gospel? I'm not sure anymore.

It doesn't matter now. I was trying to explain how the spirit of something works. How it is something beyond the limits of material processes. I was using how a group of people united towards a cause or goal can achieve greater things by tapping into the spiritual aspect. That which is beyond them be it a god or in honor of someone or some cause or tapping into the spirit of past heroes or principles worth fighting for.

The point was that this spiritual aspect is transcedent to the material world and yet can greatly change things. Have an influence and effect on the world. That this is sort of similar but not exactly like the spirit of God working in ones life. It is a source of something beyond the world that can change people and outcomes.

If it doesn't matter, I need not reply.

There you go. Your dismissing alternative ways of knowing as wishful thinking. Like I said you think anyone who believes such things is unreal and deluded. Its just wishful thinking and theres nothing real about it. Well many disagree. It actually has a tangible influence and results in making a difference beyond wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking isn't delusion and I made no such claim.

They were involved or activated by the experience. But they were not the experience itself. Its physically impossible. Neurons are just correlations and correlations don't account for the nature of experience. Its a different category altoigether and belongs in the qualitative aspects of reality.

You won't be able to find any experience in X, Y and Z neurons. They cannot get spiritual, or have belief, or experience love and other transcedent aspects. It would be like saying the pixels on a computer screen is the actual person in the screen. The vibrations of a guitar string are the experience of the song. The deterministic processes cannot account for this.

How do you experience anything if your neurons don't do anything? Experience is in the mind.

Its not exactly like the holy spirit but a small window into some aspects and even then its not exactly the same. But in principle it is about our conscience. That we all know of God and His moral law but this can be hard to see and hear with the noise of modern rationalism.

It's odd that you call rationalism "noise". The OP referred to Stocism as an alternative to the Christian gospels and the Stoics were all about rational calm. Rationalism is not about "noise" at all.

To give an example of a real life event where pray was involved and miraculous things happened. That people have no explanation for. To the believers this is evidence of God. To the skeptic and atheist is in their imagination.

The careful study of such claims do not bear out their truthfulness.

How the evidence in some ways is already there but is fonbbed away as superstition, imagination, a trick by evolution to survive ect. To show we have two comepletely different outlooks and assumptions which is behind what is classed as evidence or not and that just because some say its imagination doesn't mean its imagination. But the dogma of the material worldview of scientism claims superior truth over all other ways of experiencing and knowing reality.

The thread isn't about claims of miracles.

 

[stevevw]

You literally said 'spirit is like spirit'. That is very much a tautology and completely useless as a "definition".

I get you now. Yeah it does sound like that. But I qualified this. I knew I shouldn't have put that. It spoilt the rest lol. How would you describe 'spirit'.

You tell me it isn't personal, but then immediately tell me I wasn't a Christian. Watch yourself. You know from *recent* conversation that i was never "born again", so now you are denying my prior religious commitment. (And that of many others I knew.)

No implications at all that this is the case. I was clearly defining being born again and not the commitment. A quality and not a quantity. Completely different.

I don't doubt your commitment and in fact are surprised that you were committed for so long and never experienced being born again. From what you tell me you never had a good experience. So to hang in there for so long to something you did not feel comfortable with is a pretty big commitment. From memory you have family members who are Chrisyian or you were brought up in a religious household.

No, not like "Catholic guilt". You claimed that those that didn't experience "born again" would experience this "damnation" like it was some sort of thing you could feel. I never experience either (or any other thing extraordinary or "transcendent" things relating to my practice of religion.

I said nothing of the sort. I think your reading or projecting this into what I have said. I was going to lay out all the exchange to defend myself but I can't be bothered and should not have to prove anything. You made the claim so you show the evidence that I said such a thing. If you can't then please stop misrepresenting what I have said.

Are you making an argument against the usefulness of the gospel? I'm not sure anymore.

Lol either am I. I was explaining how the gospel cannot be both a negative and positive experience at the same time. The gospel is suppose to be positive. So saying its negative is contradicting the gospel.

I am trying to seperate the two different experiences of the gospel and determine which one best fits what the gospel and teachings say. Saying its negative seems contradictory to words like abundence of life, joy, your cup of fullfillment will overflow ect. They are positive qualities.

Though people can have a negative experience of the gospel this is not the gospels fault but rather more likley the presenters fault.

If it doesn't matter, I need not reply.

Yeah no worries. But you still don't get what I am trying to explain about the spiritual aspect I don't think. Maybe some reading up on it. I am not the best with words and grammer. But its a real aspect of study and research. I already linked a paper. Did you read it.

Wishful thinking isn't delusion and I made no such claim.

Heres a definition
Wishful thinking means believing something is true or will happen because you want it to, even if there's little evidence or reason to believe it.

So ok not delusional but not based in reality. Is that better. Its believing in an alternate reality that is completely detached from the actual reality that is being faced or experienced.

How do you experience anything if your neurons don't do anything? Experience is in the mind.

The mind is also not the physical brain. Same thing as consciousness. You can't. You need a brain that is capable of consciousness to be able to experience the world. Experience beyond the world. Its actually the mind or conscioussness that is travelling beyond the word, beyond the planet and transcending to whereever it goes to find knowledge, peace at one with the universe as they say,. Just ask the Monks.

It's odd that you call rationalism "noise". The OP referred to Stocism as an alternative to the Christian gospels and the Stoics were all about rational calm. Rationalism is not about "noise" at all.

I don't mean noise as feelings or the state of the mind. I mean there are many competing ideas competing with Gods word and spirit blocking out the signal so to speak.

Like white noise in that theres so many alternative theories, and explanations making a noise, putting their alternative narratives out about the world and reality, especially science and tech that everyones heads are already filled with heaps of stuff to then drop all that and be still and listen to God.

Just like at a table with 10 people talking at the same time and yet no one can tell what anyone is actually saying because of all the competing conversations. Someone walks into the room and says 'quiet'. Like the minute silence at memorials. Then you can hear God. Or hear stuff you rarely think about. The imortant stuff.

The careful study of such claims do not bear out their truthfulness.

Yeah thats the stock standard answer. Theres always another logical explanation. Doesn't bear out usually comes down to your word against theirs. But there are plenty of verified cases of pray and other supernatural events. I have not got time right now but I will give you a specific example where It certainly does not pan out where there was a scientific explanation and in fact defied explanation.

The thread isn't about claims of miracles.

Yet you just made the claim that miracles from prayer do not bear out their truthfullness. You can't make claims about the truth of miracles and then shut down the discussion. You were happy to taklk about supernatural events in relation to a reality beyond the material. This is where it led to.

But it doesn't matter.

 

[Hans Blaster]

No implications at all that this is the case. I was clearly defining being born again and not the commitment. A quality and not a quantity. Completely different.

I don't doubt your commitment and in fact are surprised that you were committed for so long and never experienced being born again. From what you tell me you never had a good experience. So to hang in there for so long to something you did not feel comfortable with is a pretty big commitment. From memory you have family members who are Chrisyian or you were brought up in a religious household.

This "born again" culture was just not part of the religous environment I was part of. No one talked of such experiences. I never heard anyone refer to it as not Christian until I got here.

I think this conversation is done.