• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Should Employers Who are Looking for New Hires With Critical Thinking Skills, Reject Applicants Who Believe Conspiracy Theories???

Stephen3141

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2023
1,425
546
70
Southwest
✟107,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I can tell that the welfare of this group of Christians is very important to you, and I appreciate that you're trying to look out for them. That said, I would highly recommend avoiding labels like “anti-intellectual,” which can come across as elitist and demeaning. Lacking critical thinking skills doesn't necessarily mean someone is opposed to intellect. That label immediately alienates the very audience you seem to be trying to help.

There are a few things I’d like to comment on from your last post as well.

First, I believe there’s a misunderstanding of what Christians are asking for when it comes to equal opportunity and freedom of religion. We’re not asking to be hired or kept in a job despite lacking essential skills, we simply don't want to be discriminated against because of our beliefs. I’ve never heard a Christian claim they should be hired solely based on their religion.

Also, while critical thinking is certainly important, I’d argue that generative AI will likely be used most often as a tool to assist those who may lack advanced reasoning skills. That’s not necessarily a bad thing; it’s how much of modern technology has evolved. We’ve made massive leaps forward before, and humanity has adapted every time.

Regarding your point about having a “renewed mind,” I agree that intellectual growth can be a part of that, but biblically, the focus is on aligning our thoughts with God’s truth. Romans 12:2 talks about not being conformed to the world but being transformed by the renewing of our minds so that we can discern God's will. This transformation is part of what 2 Corinthians 5:17 means when it says we become new creations in Christ.

You’ve also brought up the concept of living in a shared reality. I agree that truth exists and that we need to seek it, but I believe you're underestimating how varied our perceptions of that reality can be. We may live in the same world, but we don’t all process it the same way. That doesn’t make someone “anti-intellectual”, it just makes them human.

Truth matters, but how we communicate truth matters just as much. Imagine visiting a doctor who only cared about reality:

“You have incurable cancer and six months to live. Please stop by the receptionist on your way out to cancel your account.”
Or imagine someone telling every overweight person they meet that they’re fat and need to lose weight. Yes, those things might be “real,” but there’s a serious lack of compassion and wisdom in how they’re delivered.

We have to be careful when guiding others into truth. Done poorly, it can cause emotional harm or spiritual setbacks. This is especially true in matters of faith, as seen in Romans 14, where Paul instructs us not to cause our brothers and sisters to stumble over disputable matters. Verse 21 sums it up well:

“It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.”

I think this passage shows that even when we’re technically correct, the way we handle truth can be just as important as the truth itself. We were created with reason and intellect, but also with emotions, conscience, and relationship. Life isn’t just about logic and facts, it’s also about grace, growth, and love.

I struggle with the terminology to use, when talking about dysfunctional
methodology in trying to use logic, and "conspiracy theories". I admit this.

When I use the term "anti-intellectual", (I think) many Christians who are NOT
in the habit of employing formal logic, don't have any idea what I am talking
about, and probably sort my arguments into a bin of mere rhetoric. I have
experienced this in the past.

About GenAI tools, unfortunately, it will often take a human being with
formal reasoning skills, to tell when the tool is "hallucinating". I would assert
that it is a misunderstanding of the GenAI algorithms, to think that they will
"add" critical thinking skills, to whatever a human being (without critical
thinking skills) may do. (The algorithmic problem with the GenAI neural
networks, is in THE WAY THEY TRY TO STORE INFORMATION as statistical
distributions, instead of having access to a library of facts.

When I talk about "our shared reality", I am not addressing how DIFFERENT
the perceptions of that reality could be, among individuals. I am arguing from
the foundation of God holding us responsible to accurately bear witness to
that reality. In the Bible, this is called "telling the truth", which is the opposite
of "lying". There are all sorts of ways, in the language of Scripture, that we
could "see, and not see", or "hear, and not hear". But still, God holds us
morally-ethically responsible to see and hear, accurately.

I don't think that your argument about causing a brother to stumble, is
relevant. IF God will hold us responsible for telling the truth, THEN we
really need to communicate that to brothers and sisters who may think that
ANY interpretation of our shared reality, is OK. On lying, it is not permissible
to categorize this topic as "disputable". We're talking about a core
Christian doctrine.
---------- ----------

I realize that this topic of conspiracy theories, and dysfuntional logic,
is a difficult one.
 
Upvote 0

Jermayn

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 22, 2019
1,485
679
Northwest Florida
✟256,239.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I struggle with the terminology to use, when talking about dysfunctional
methodology in trying to use logic, and "conspiracy theories". I admit this.

When I use the term "anti-intellectual", (I think) many Christians who are NOT
in the habit of employing formal logic, don't have any idea what I am talking
about, and probably sort my arguments into a bin of mere rhetoric. I have
experienced this in the past.

About GenAI tools, unfortunately, it will often take a human being with
formal reasoning skills, to tell when the tool is "hallucinating". I would assert
that it is a misunderstanding of the GenAI algorithms, to think that they will
"add" critical thinking skills, to whatever a human being (without critical
thinking skills) may do. (The algorithmic problem with the GenAI neural
networks, is in THE WAY THEY TRY TO STORE INFORMATION as statistical
distributions, instead of having access to a library of facts.

When I talk about "our shared reality", I am not addressing how DIFFERENT
the perceptions of that reality could be, among individuals. I am arguing from
the foundation of God holding us responsible to accurately bear witness to
that reality. In the Bible, this is called "telling the truth", which is the opposite
of "lying". There are all sorts of ways, in the language of Scripture, that we
could "see, and not see", or "hear, and not hear". But still, God holds us
morally-ethically responsible to see and hear, accurately.

I don't think that your argument about causing a brother to stumble, is
relevant. IF God will hold us responsible for telling the truth, THEN we
really need to communicate that to brothers and sisters who may think that
ANY interpretation of our shared reality, is OK. On lying, it is not permissible
to categorize this topic as "disputable". We're talking about a core
Christian doctrine.
---------- ----------

I realize that this topic of conspiracy theories, and dysfuntional logic,
is a difficult one.
I want to start out by saying I'm not dismissing your arguments as just rhetoric. You are obviously very intelligent and (not to boast) as someone who has a higher-than-average intelligence myself, I understand it can be frustrating to not be understood, but most people are using logic and reasoning skills to the best of their ability. The trick is to learn how to communicate with a diverse range of people. Take for instance my line of work. Sometimes I communicate with General and Admirals, and sometimes I communicate with a junior tech straight out of high school or college. They way I would communicate the same information to those two groups are very different. I'm sure you understand this already, I'm just saying being intelligent loses most of its benefits if no one can understand what we are trying to say. I would also point out that we are jumping from GenAI, to theology, to definitions of truth and lies, etc. in a, to me, very disjointed way.

I appreciate the concern about GenAI hallucinations, it's definitely a real issue. That said, I think it's a bit of an oversimplification to say that GenAI lacks access to a "library of facts." While the model doesn't retrieve data like a traditional database, it is trained on a massive amount of factual information and can recall and synthesize it in useful ways. You're right that it doesn't replace human critical thinking, but when used properly, it can absolutely enhance it, especially for users who are already thinking deeply and evaluating what they see.

In regard to shared reality, truth, and lies, I've met Christians on all levels of the intelligence spectrum, and I don't think any of them disagree that we don't live in a shared reality, or the definition of truth and lies. Maybe you can give me a real-world example of what you perceive as the issue here?

Finally, in regard to my response on causing a brother to stumble, it is absolutely relevant. In the Romans 14, Paul tells his followers that they should not eat meat in the presence of another group of Christians who saw it as a sin. He goes as far as to imply that, while this may not be the REALITY, stating their faith is weaker, it was still a sin for them to eat meat. If the reality is it's not a sin to eat meat, why then would he warn his followers not to cause them to stumble (sin)? Because the reality is that violating your own conscience is a sin, and it would have been a sin for his followers to cause them to stumble. You're thinking of reality as a traditional computer where the underlying code is either a 1 or a 0, when it is actually more akin to a quantum computer where things can be true and false at the same time.
 
Upvote 0

Stephen3141

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2023
1,425
546
70
Southwest
✟107,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I realize that I am taking a very different approach to "our shared reality",
than is common in modern America. I am emphasizing the SHARED part
of the definition, because (I assert) that the moral-ethical law of God
is something that is applied to the reality that we all SHARE.

How could we affirm the truth of a proposition, by the agreement of
2 or 3 witnesses, IF WE DIDN'T LIVE IN A SHARED REALITY? (Although
you probably will rarely hear this said in a sermon, it is obvious to me.)

Further, we can examine this shared reality ON DIFFERENT LEVELS
(such as subatomic, the level of human beings, and the level of
astronomical galaxies). But, the moral-ethical law of God was given
to us on the level of human beings, and what we perceive of as "objects"
in our shared reality. Trying to apply God's moral-ethical law (such as the
command not to lie) to levels of reality that are not what human beings
perceive (such as subatomic quantum mechanics) is trying to apply God's
moral-ethical law to something that it was not meant to apply to. This is
also a proposition that you will not hear in a sermon/homily, but it is
obvious to me.
---------- ----------

In general, I accept the ancient philosophers discussions about "two
worlds", which accepts that the underlying "reality" that produces what
we "see" as reality, may be quite different than what human beings perceive
as our shared reality. But, I believe, that core Christian doctrines demand that
we all "perceive" this underlying reality in an accurate-enough way, so that the
moral-ethical laws of God apply to all of us.

----------

"Two Worlds:

In the history of philosophy, it is common to find concepts about reality, that involve “two worlds.” That is, a reality that is a base of things, and a reality that is perceived by us (and other living organisms).

The reality that projects characteristics that can be perceived, is not quite the same as the reality that we perceive. Thus, the discussion of “two worlds.”

Whether it is the ancient Greek philosopher speaking of the thinker as a man inside a cave watching the dancing images on the wall of the cave that come from “the real world,” or the German phenomenologists who speak about what we perceive, as a reflection of what is real, this does not negate the assertion that we live in a shared reality.

And the Bible consistently promotes the idea that we can reliably perceive things in our shared reality, with enough precision that we are morally/ethically responsible for what we perceive.

Even though I bypass the detailed discussion of how we perceive our shared reality, I agree with the two worlds concept of the ancient philosophers. And I agree with the Bible that we are morally/ethically responsible for what we perceive. And, the biblical assertion that we can reliably perceive our shared reality.

Note that if we are accurate in our thinking about our shared reality, then we are applying valid methods of reasoning, to reason about some aspect of our shared reality.

Note that the Bible regularly presents misrepresenting our shared reality, as “lying”. And it regularly presents our shared reality as including the presence of God, and his moral/ethical law. (James chapter 2, is a good example.)

When we reason about some personal fantasy (not about our shared reality), then the result is not something that is shared by all people (potentially). Reasoning about conspiracy theories, is an example. (Most of these are not grounded in objective facts, and are not part of our shared reality.)

It is the same situation when we live out some “fantasy life” that has little contact with reality. Are we living out a life, other than the one God gave to us? Are we constantly denying reality? Are we constantly spending time on social media, living in some fantasy world?

Note that we can use formal logic to reason about someone’s fantasy world. Formal logic is expressive enough to handle this.

But, a Christian has got to deal with the shared reality that God put us in. God will hold us responsible, at the final judgment, for how we lived in this shared reality." [Christian Logic, 74-75]
----------

I am using simple language. But in what I am saying, I do require the reader to
think about concepts that are NOT regularly presented to Christians in Bible
study classes, or catechism classes. I think that my language is accessible,
to those who are willing to think.

And, what I am asserting about our shared reality, is crucial to discussing
the topic of conspiracy theories, and formal reasoning about reality.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Unsupported Claims? Smash'em!!!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
27,140
12,546
Space Mountain!
✟1,536,260.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I realize that I am taking a very different approach to "our shared reality",
than is common in modern America. I am emphasizing the SHARED part
of the definition, because (I assert) that the moral-ethical law of God
is something that is applied to the reality that we all SHARE.

How could we affirm the truth of a proposition, by the agreement of
2 or 3 witnesses, IF WE DIDN'T LIVE IN A SHARED REALITY? (Although
you probably will rarely hear this said in a sermon, it is obvious to me.)

Further, we can examine this shared reality ON DIFFERENT LEVELS
(such as subatomic, the level of human beings, and the level of
astronomical galaxies). But, the moral-ethical law of God was given
to us on the level of human beings, and what we perceive of as "objects"
in our shared reality. Trying to apply God's moral-ethical law (such as the
command not to lie) to levels of reality that are not what human beings
perceive (such as subatomic quantum mechanics) is trying to apply God's
moral-ethical law to something that it was not meant to apply to. This is
also a proposition that you will not hear in a sermon/homily, but it is
obvious to me.
---------- ----------

In general, I accept the ancient philosophers discussions about "two
worlds", which accepts that the underlying "reality" that produces what
we "see" as reality, may be quite different than what human beings perceive
as our shared reality. But, I believe, that core Christian doctrines demand that
we all "perceive" this underlying reality in an accurate-enough way, so that the
moral-ethical laws of God apply to all of us.

----------

"Two Worlds:

In the history of philosophy, it is common to find concepts about reality, that involve “two worlds.” That is, a reality that is a base of things, and a reality that is perceived by us (and other living organisms).

The reality that projects characteristics that can be perceived, is not quite the same as the reality that we perceive. Thus, the discussion of “two worlds.”

Whether it is the ancient Greek philosopher speaking of the thinker as a man inside a cave watching the dancing images on the wall of the cave that come from “the real world,” or the German phenomenologists who speak about what we perceive, as a reflection of what is real, this does not negate the assertion that we live in a shared reality.

And the Bible consistently promotes the idea that we can reliably perceive things in our shared reality, with enough precision that we are morally/ethically responsible for what we perceive.

Even though I bypass the detailed discussion of how we perceive our shared reality, I agree with the two worlds concept of the ancient philosophers. And I agree with the Bible that we are morally/ethically responsible for what we perceive. And, the biblical assertion that we can reliably perceive our shared reality.

Note that if we are accurate in our thinking about our shared reality, then we are applying valid methods of reasoning, to reason about some aspect of our shared reality.

Note that the Bible regularly presents misrepresenting our shared reality, as “lying”. And it regularly presents our shared reality as including the presence of God, and his moral/ethical law. (James chapter 2, is a good example.)

When we reason about some personal fantasy (not about our shared reality), then the result is not something that is shared by all people (potentially). Reasoning about conspiracy theories, is an example. (Most of these are not grounded in objective facts, and are not part of our shared reality.)

It is the same situation when we live out some “fantasy life” that has little contact with reality. Are we living out a life, other than the one God gave to us? Are we constantly denying reality? Are we constantly spending time on social media, living in some fantasy world?

Note that we can use formal logic to reason about someone’s fantasy world. Formal logic is expressive enough to handle this.

But, a Christian has got to deal with the shared reality that God put us in. God will hold us responsible, at the final judgment, for how we lived in this shared reality." [Christian Logic, 74-75]
----------

I am using simple language. But in what I am saying, I do require the reader to
think about concepts that are NOT regularly presented to Christians in Bible
study classes, or catechism classes. I think that my language is accessible,
to those who are willing to think.

And, what I am asserting about our shared reality, is crucial to discussing
the topic of conspiracy theories, and formal reasoning about reality.

I hate to say this, but while we may all live in a 'shared reality,' my recognition of the bifurcation between today's paradigms and those of the first Christians is obviously different and for us to more accurate interpret the Bible, even where Jesus and Paul are concerned, this recognition has to be taken into account to be qualified as rational. Without this recognition, we're just playing conceptual word games, and I'm fairly certain the Lord isn't going to hold everyone completely accountable for differences in paradigms that they couldn't possibly have been in the right place, time, country, family or educational situation in order to clearly "understand" God's existence in our 'shared reality.'
 
Upvote 0

Stephen3141

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2023
1,425
546
70
Southwest
✟107,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
You would have to explain what you mean by "paradigm".
But, the topic that you bring up, is important.

If you think that different "paradigms" in different times during history,
would result in different understandings of what "You shall not lie" means,
you need to explain what that means. Otherwise, I cannot respond to
your comment.

It doesn't take different paradigms, for example, to understand that the
evidence is that there was no big conspiracy in the murder of JFK.
---------- ----------

My underlying argument, is that God's moral-ethical commands remain
the same throughout all of history. And, that this requires a Christian
worldview that conceives of "our shared reality" as very much stable
throughout human history. (If this is not so, then how can we understand
what ANY of God's moral-ethical commands mean, for a specific person?
Believing this, would lead to impossible theological requirements.)

I assert that the elements of formal logic, are part of our shared reality,
whether or not different generations of humans had formalized them,
or taught them in K12 education curricula. And these formal logic elements,
as well as philosophical primitives, remain the same for all human beings.

FOR THIS REASON, I assert that the formal reasoning tools that could be
used in Jesus' time, to discern that there WAS a plot among the Jews to get
Jesus indicted and condemned, are the same formal reasoning tools that
could be used to debunk the modern Kennedy assassination plot. Or the
"conspiracy theories" surrounding the false stories of why the Columbine
High School shooters, did what they did.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Unsupported Claims? Smash'em!!!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
27,140
12,546
Space Mountain!
✟1,536,260.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You would have to explain what you mean by "paradigm".
But, the topic that you bring up, is important.
By "paradigm," I tend to mean what Thomas Kuhn would mean by it, and as a point of simple logic, I don't think it's too much to say that we no longer live in a Greco-Roman derived view of the world's functionality, scientifically speaking. Claims that I hear, then, that we all live in a recognizably shared reality seem to indicate the presence of conceptual conflations and equivocations about the nuances of how any of us perceive and conceoptualize, and make clear and distinct reference to, that 'shared reality' (which I just call "Reality" and treat as not fully known and sometimes 'other.')

The catch in this for me is that I think in order to understand Paul's assertions in Romans 1, particularly Roman 1:18-20 which provides an all too brief statement about theological epistemology and ontology contributing to any one person's "lack of excuse before God," we have to get out of our present paradigm about how the world works and what it's "essential nature" is and attempt to see it from the viewpoint of those who lived in Paul's 1st century Jewish and Roman milieu. If we instead decline to take this step in academic fashion, applying today's scientific paradigm, we will not see, or fully see, any solid reason why Paul's statement has any substantial purchase on our ontological and epistemological sensibilities. In my saying this, one reference among several in my saying all of this is Craig S. Keener's first chapter of his book, The Mind of the Spirit: Paul's Approach to Transformed Thinking.

Keener doesn't specifically state what I state about how I think it is necessary to put ourselves in the ontolotical and epistemological shoes of a 1st century Jewish Apostle such as Paul---or even those of Jesus---so I will take the fall for making this assertion. I will also invoke the Problem of the Criterion by which to further illustrate the problematic nature of your insistence about our living in a "share reality." Of course we do, but despite that we may be living in a shared reality by no means implies that any of us with identically perceive, or have immediate education to perceive, that share reality in the same way leading to the same inferences, especially where the contents of the Bible are concerend.

I wish it was easier, though. I really do. But being that figuring out the complexities and complications that exist in any of our attempts to apply cogent Hermeneutics to understanding our world or the Bible is riddled with frustrations and many false starts, makes assertions about recognizing our 'shared reality' become a very difficult abductive rather than a deductive project.

Moreover, in saying this, spotting the Before Copernicus vs. After Copernicus bifurcation should be enough by which to indicate this trouble spot in our assessing a 'shared reality,' and I shouldn't have to provide you a bibliography of every Formal or Informal Logic textbook I have on my book shelves.
If you think that different "paradigms" in different times during history,
would result in different understandings of what "You shall not lie" means,
you need to explain what that means. Otherwise, I cannot respond to
your comment.

It doesn't take different paradigms, for example, to understand that the
evidence is that there was no big conspiracy in the murder of JFK.
---------- ----------

My underlying argument, is that God's moral-ethical commands remain
the same throughout all of history. And, that this requires a Christian
worldview that conceives of "our shared reality" as very much stable
throughout human history. (If this is not so, then how can we understand
what ANY of God's moral-ethical commands mean, for a specific person?
Believing this, would lead to impossible theological requirements.)

I assert that the elements of formal logic, are part of our shared reality,
whether or not different generations of humans had formalized them,
or taught them in K12 education curricula. And these formal logic elements,
as well as philosophical primitives, remain the same for all human beings.

FOR THIS REASON, I assert that the formal reasoning tools that could be
used in Jesus' time, to discern that there WAS a plot among the Jews to get
Jesus indicted and condemned, are the same formal reasoning tools that
could be used to debunk the modern Kennedy assassination plot. Or the
"conspiracy theories" surrounding the false stories of why the Columbine
High School shooters, did what they did.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0