Modern Feminism Makes Women Miserable

FireDragon76 · Mar 24, 2025

iluvatar5150 said:
You don't hear complaints about sexism in computer & engineering fields? Really? Last I recall, much of the discussion had turned from criticisms of the workplace to criticisms of cultural issues that motivate women to not pursue those fields in the first place (or to switch majors away from them in college).

I follow alot of stuff on tech and it's interesting how some of the serious computer science is done by women now days. But the reality is that's always been the case, it's just been something that hasn't filtered through to public knowledge.

I actually did research a few weeks ago on Maria von Wedemeyer, the fiancee of the theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer. After the ruins of WWII, she moved to the US and was instrumental in developing the COBOL programming language (and it's still used, for those that don't know, it can earn you a relatively steady income). Women have also been important in developing deep learning and AI. But they are rarely involved in the business application side at high levels.

iluvatar5150 · Mar 24, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
Have you looked into Spiral Dynamics? It explains alot about what goes on in terms of contemporary culture and politics. Most Americans are in the material wealth and status-seeking stage, only a small minority of the population have gotten beyond that.

I haven't. I'll check it out.

iluvatar5150 · Mar 24, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
I follow alot of stuff on tech and it's interesting how some of the serious computer science is done by women now days. But the reality is that's always been the case, it's just been something that hasn't filtered through to public knowledge.

I actually did research a few weeks ago on Maria von Wedemeyer, the fiancee of the theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer. After the ruins of WWII, she moved to the US and was instrumental in developing the COBOL programming language. Women have also been important in developing deep learning and AI. But they are rarely involved in the business application side at high levels.

Yeah, I mean, the ADA programming language was named after Ada Lovelace. From what I recall, tech had a large female contingent until some time in the 80's when computers and similar gadgets started being marketed as toys for boys, which led to a shift in perceptions among everybody. I think I saw Meg Whitman talk in an interview about her experiences as someone who was already working as an engineer when that shift started.

FireDragon76 · Mar 24, 2025

iluvatar5150 said:
Yeah, I mean, the ADA programming language was named after Ada Lovelace. From what I recall, tech had a large female contingent until some time in the 80's when computers and similar gadgets started being marketed as toys for boys, which led to a shift in perceptions among everybody. I think I saw Meg Whitman talk in an interview about her experiences as someone who was already working as an engineer when that shift started.

I think its starting to shift back, particularly in the younger generation. I think that's partly what Gamergate was years ago; a backlash to the perception that computer and video game geekdom didn't have to be a boys only club.

I play some online games (walking simulators, some action games) and I'm always surprised by the number of young women playing. Sometimes in gaming genres that would have been coded as male dominated in the past. And more and more women are doing geeky stuff like building their own PC's or electronics.

iluvatar5150 · Mar 24, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
I think its starting to shift back, particularly in the younger generation. I think that's partly what Gamergate was years ago; a backlash to the perception that computer and video game geekdom didn't have to be a boys only club.

I play some online games (walking simulators, some action games) and I'm always surprised by the number of young women playing. Sometimes in gaming genres that would have been coded as male dominated in the past. And more and more women are doing geeky stuff like building their own PC's or electronics.

I work in the games industry and IME on dev side, engineering and audio are still sausage fests (though audio is slowly changing), but all of the other disciplines and leadership are fairly close to even.

Niels · Mar 25, 2025

If feminism is what it claims to be, then women should feel free to choose traditional gender roles, non-traditional gender roles, and anything in between. If some prefer a traditional lifestyle, but feel discouraged from embracing it, that sounds like as much of a recipe for unhappiness as the inverse. Also, dwelling on the fact that some women are mistreated is depressing in and of itself. If that occupies too much of their thoughts, it's no wonder that they feel miserable.

To be clear, I'm all for the equality and fair treatment of women. From my perspective that isn't about feminism but about being a decent human being. I just think that people in general are unhappy when they feel like they can't be themselves or when they spend an inordinate amount of energy focusing on the suffering in the world. Mindsets that some fall into regardless of the social movements that they support.

Niels · Mar 25, 2025

iluvatar5150 said:
I work in the games industry and IME on dev side, engineering and audio are still sausage fests (though audio is slowly changing), but all of the other disciplines and leadership are fairly close to even.

We would like to hire more women, but that can be hard to do when all applicants are men. I'm not exaggerating. We haven't had a female job candidate in years. Or at least not one whose resume made it through HR, and we have a DEI program.

iluvatar5150 · Mar 25, 2025

Niels said:
We would like to hire more women, but that can be hard to do when all applicants are men. I'm not exaggerating. We haven't had a female job candidate in years. Or at least not one whose resume made it through HR, and we have a DEI program.

That's an example of the sort of problems that I mentioned that are "hard to address with better HR policies." The best most employers can do in that case is to expand their recruiting efforts into spaces favored by demographics under-represented in their workforce. But even that approach can have limited potential for success, depending on the specifics.

Laodicean60 · Mar 25, 2025

Niels said:
We would like to hire more women, but that can be hard to do when all applicants are men. I'm not exaggerating. We haven't had a female job candidate in years. Or at least not one whose resume made it through HR, and we have a DEI program.

We have to face it that not all women take jobs that men are interested in. I've noticed women tend to go for teaching or healthcare.

iluvatar5150 · Mar 25, 2025

Laodicean60 said:
We have to face it that not all women take jobs that men are interested in. I've noticed women tend to go for teaching or healthcare.

That's because our society has treated most lower-level teaching and healthcare jobs as being "for women." Women grow up seeing these as "for them" and men grow up seeing them as not "for them." Look at the higher-level teaching and healthcare jobs (e.g. professors, doctors) and there are loads of men.

rjs330 · Mar 25, 2025

iluvatar5150 said:
That's because our society has treated most lower-level teaching and healthcare jobs as being "for women." Women grow up seeing these as "for them" and men grow up seeing them as not "for them." Look at the higher-level teaching and healthcare jobs (e.g. professors, doctors) and there are loads of men.

I dint think that's it at all. It has to do with the differences between men and women. It's a generalization of course and diesnt apply to every person. But women tend to want to be teachers because of their nurturing aspect of wanting to nurture and help children. They are more empathetic and caring than men. Thats why nursing is more appealing to them.

Men pursue being doctors and surgeons more because they are more clinical and skillset oriented. My wife works in the hospital and she has seen this over and over again. Very skilled surgeons who are not people oriented in the least. Men are far more likely to be task oriented rather than people oriented.

Again, not all.

iluvatar5150 · Mar 25, 2025

rjs330 said:
I dint think that's it at all. It has to do with the differences between men and women. It's a generalization of course and diesnt apply to every person. But women tend to want to be teachers because of their nurturing aspect of wanting to nurture and help children.

Then why does that change as the students get older? Older students need their own sort of nurturing. The relationship between a grad student and their PhD advisor has the potential to be even more nurturing than that between an elementary school teacher and a 7yo. And yet, universities are full of men. Athletic coaches provide their own sort of nurturing - lots of men.

rjs330 said:
They are more empathetic and caring than men. Thats why nursing is more appealing to them.

Men pursue being doctors and surgeons more because they are more clinical and skillset oriented. My wife works in the hospital and she has seen this over and over again. Very skilled surgeons who are not people oriented in the least. Men are far more likely to be task oriented rather than people oriented.

As a patient and as a relative of several healthcare professionals, I haven't found nurses to be any more or less nurturing than doctors. Both are clinical and skillset-oriented roles that also require some amount of people skills. Maybe something like a trauma surgeon can avoid a lot of patient interaction, but most specialties can't.

Laodicean60 · Mar 25, 2025

iluvatar5150 said:
That's because our society has treated most lower-level teaching and healthcare jobs as being "for women.

No, any woman can become a doctor if she desires. I keep telling my daughters to become nursing assistants, but they don't want to. Today, most people choose the profession they want. For example, in Arizona, the top women's degrees are nothing in society is making them choose what degree to pay for. I assume this might be typical in other states.

The Top Degrees for Women That Have Been Steadily Trending Include:

Nursing
Liberal Arts and Sciences, General Studies and Humanities
Psychology
Health Professions
Business, Management, Marketing, and Related Support Service

The Most Popular Majors for Women

During this year's Women's History Month, let's look at the most popular majors for women. Discover the most popular majors for women.

online.arizona.edu

iluvatar5150 · Mar 25, 2025

Laodicean60 said:
No, any woman can become a doctor if she desires. I keep telling my daughters to become nursing assistants, but they don't want to. Today, most people choose the profession they want. For example, in Arizona, the top women's degrees are nothing in society is making them choose what degree to pay for. I assume this might be typical in other states.

The Top Degrees for Women That Have Been Steadily Trending Include:

Nursing
Liberal Arts and Sciences, General Studies and Humanities
Psychology
Health Professions
Business, Management, Marketing, and Related Support Service

The Most Popular Majors for Women

During this year's Women's History Month, let's look at the most popular majors for women. Discover the most popular majors for women.

online.arizona.edu

Your misunderstanding me - I didn't say that women are prohibited from certain careers or forced into certain careers. What I'm describing is a nudging through the reinforcement of cultural norms and expectations. You, personally, copped to it by saying that you've encouraged your daughters to become nursing assistants.

rjs330 · Mar 25, 2025

iluvatar5150 said:
Then why does that change as the students get older? Older students need their own sort of nurturing.

It's not the same thing. The kids in college are 18 and adults. The classrooms are filled with tons of kids and the ability to nurture and develope them as you do little kids is very different. I didn't want or need my college professors to nurture me. We need them to provide us information. We dont need them to guide and empathize and massage the adults.

It's a far different thing.

As far as cultural norms and the nudging I don't see this at all. No where are women nudged to be nurses because that's societal expectations, norms or cultural values indicate thats what women should do. They do it because that's what they want to do. Because they are women. Yes doctors interact with people, but not the same way or amount as women do. I've been in more ERs and spent more time there than I care to (involving my job) and I've watched how people are. The doctor spends little time with the patient while nurses do. And I see interactions and they are radically different most of the time. The female nurses display more empathy, caring and concern for the patient than the physician does. I've even noticed rhat there is a difference between male and female nurses.

Society does not drive women to this field as any ki d of expectation. Now I do believe that at one time it was a cultural norm that women were nurses and men were doctors. Well thats gone now. But by and large women are doing this because they want to and the reasons are clear. Being nurturing, empathetic etc. Is what they are. And it's wonderful. We dont want women to be like men or men to be like women. I'm just talking about the differences. Women make fine doctors because they bring something more to the position. Something that men have a tendency to lack.

iluvatar5150 · Mar 25, 2025

rjs330 said:
It's not the same thing. The kids in college are 18 and adults. The classrooms are filled with tons of kids and the ability to nurture and develope them as you do little kids is very different. I didn't want or need my college professors to nurture me. We need them to provide us information. We dont need them to guide and empathize and massage the adults.

It's a far different thing.

Ok, you've clearly never talked to anybody who's done a phd. The relationship between a grad student and an advisor is not merely one of a lecturer and a student sitting in a chair.

Niels · Mar 25, 2025

Laodicean60 said:
We have to face it that not all women take jobs that men are interested in. I've noticed women tend to go for teaching or healthcare.

I agree that not all women are interested in jobs traditionally held by men. However, speaking of computer-related work, there was a time when the women outnumbered the men. And before that, human computers were often women prior to the advent of technological computing. So much for the idea that women are inherently bad at math. There certainly is a cultural element. These days, I think many see how tech is portrayed in the media and think "ew nerds" before giving it a fair chance. Or maybe they think it would require living up to the girl-boss caricature, when realistically it might be more helpful for them to meet working female engineers and developers. People who can provide inspiration and show them that yes, this is something that they might enjoy doing for a living. It just seems like many rule it out prematurely.

Nithavela · Mar 25, 2025

"X thing for women should be forbidden because it makes women sad" is a common trope among mysogonists.

Pommer · Mar 25, 2025

Things were better for women when they didn’t have agency in their own lives!, seems to be the sentiment expressed.

zeland2236 · Mar 25, 2025

Bradskii said:
Feminism, however you want to define it, isn't compulsory. You don't get thrown out of The Sisterhood if you get married or have a baby. If you're unhappy being single, then look for a husband. If you are depressed because you don't have children, then go get pregnant. You don't even need the husband.

The "Get pregnant without a husband idea" is bad advise. The ultimate problem with today's society is sin, too much sin. Too much fornication, abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, ....etc.

Modern Feminism Makes Women Miserable

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you're in charge you can do it just get louis

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