What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?

reddogs said:

You have a problem my brother with this verse...

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

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Can you explain please, what the problem is?

reddogs said:

Dont want to tear anything down but you have to look at the text itself and see what fits given the context it gives. Is that 'one hour' prophetic, the line does not fit, and it cant be literal as one hour doesnt give time for them to rule.

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reddogs said:

Then you have to explain "10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." Both have yet to happen, thats a problem for the line up you have..

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Ah. I see what you are thinking.
You are considering that perhaps the 7 is not literally seven kings, and therefore the 10 are not literally ten, but considering the angel's words, there is no reason to think that the seven is not literal.
The angel, in explaining the vision, says...

The angel is not here using symbolism to explain symbolism.

That's a good query though, because it's easy to assume the 10 is symbolic... although, they could be, without rendering the 7 symbolic.
However, we have scriptural evidence for the number being literal, from the angel's words.
Also, consider please, Daniel 7:23, 24.

In describing the horns, the angel is specific, in identifying particular kingdoms.
For the discerning person, reading the prophecy, these features must have clarity... which they do.
Even the two horned ram was specific in identifying two kingdoms - The Medes, and Persians.

There is some interesting history, here, on the Medes - MEDES AND MEDIA.

The one hour is figurative, and that does not render the entire verse figurative.
We also have Jesus using symbolism along with literal, as is seen throughout the book of Revelation.

Revelation17:3 reads... So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman [one] sitting on a scarlet beast [one] which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The woman is symbolic, and the beast is symbolic.
They both represent a global system. The woman is the religious aspect, and the beast is the political aspect.

The angel gives the specific details on the beast, in identifying particular kingdoms that play a significant role in affairs that would significantly impact God's interests.
Later, in Chapter 18 of Revelation, the angel turns attention to detail that help identify the woman.
(Notice how the beast that was, and is not, is identified, not as multiple kingdoms, but the eighth kingdom.)

Regarding the 10 kings, the angel says...

These 10 kings then, act only as the authorities within the beast, to carry out one important goal - attack and destroy the woman... the religious element.
Therefore, whether or not this number is symbolic, or literal, does not in any way affect the rest of the text.
It can be either. It does not change any content previously mentioned.

The point is, to identify the eighth king, which will be given authority to act against the global religious system.... obviously, from the description of the woman, it is only the corrupt, or bad religious systems that will be completely burnt with fire - totally destroyed.

The Bible says this is God's will - God put it into their heart to carry out their own thoughts.
In other words, God will move them to do what they intended for perhaps a long time, but were being held back, because it was not God's time.

From this, there is no problem, with the chart below.

reddogs said:

1. _________Egypt__________
2. _________Assyria_________ Assyrian conquest of Egypt
3. ________Babylon_________ Medo-Babylonian conquest of the Assyrian Empire
4. ______Media Persia______ Fall of Babylon to Cyrus
5. _________Greece_________ Greece's conquest of Persia
6. __________Rome_________ The Fall of Greece and the Rise of Rome
7. ____________??___________

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Can you pinpoint how any one of these is wrong, either from secular history, or Biblical history, or narrative?

Oh, and thanks for the explanation.

reddogs said:

They are literal kingdoms, but look at the one that lasts only a short time and then is gone. Your line up doesn't work..

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1,000 pardons.
I totally forgot to respond to this thread.
What reminded me was the recent events, and this video, which I just came across.
It's a good thing I do peep at the news occasionally.

I'm glad we agree that the elements are political and not religious.
So, that goes against your "line up" that Papal Rome is one of those elements.
Do we agree on that?

On the other hand, there is no problem with the "line up" I presented.
Here is why.
The League of Nations was an international organization established after World War I to promote peace and cooperation among nations. Both Britain and the United States played significant roles in its formation and operation. However, the United States never joined the League, despite President Woodrow Wilson's efforts to include it in the Treaty of Versailles.

At the start of the First World War, the first schemes for an international organisation to prevent future wars began to gain considerable public support, particularly in Great Britain and the United States. Goldsworthy Lowes Dickinson, a British political scientist, coined the term "League of Nations" in 1914 and drafted a scheme for its organisation. Together with Lord Bryce, he played a leading role in the founding of the group of internationalist pacifists known as the Bryce Group, later the League of Nations Union

What really is the League?
In January 1915, a peace conference directed by Jane Addams was held in the neutral United States. The delegates adopted a platform calling for creation of international bodies with administrative and legislative powers to develop a "permanent league of neutral nations" to work for peace and disarmament.

Administrative power refers to the authority vested in government agencies and departments to enact and enforce regulations, manage public programs, and administer the law.

So, while Britain and the United States emerged as the 7th world power, the beast took on forms that were elements of that power.
It fits like hand in glove, because, at one point, it is the image of the wild beast that attention was drawn to - that was promoted, and the death stroke that the beast received was healed.

The League was promoted as the solution to world wars.
It failed, which was a death blow to the beast that promoted it.
The wound healed, when the eighth king was born, which the Bible says, is really the 7th, because the 8th is really a promotion of the 7th.
It's like the image, only this time it's more tangible, and it will be used to accomplish great things... including totally destroying the harlot - religion, which God does not support.

There really isn't any issue with this understanding.
It's an accurate match.
The U.N. composed of international governmental power has what it takes to destroy religion globally.

reddogs said:

They seek what is Gods, worship so are religious, and they rule with temporal power as kingdoms so are political also. The Beast of Revelation is a Political and Religious Entity.

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To be consistent with the Bible, one has to accept that beasts are used in the Bible to represent kings and kingdoms. Daniel 7:1-8:12; Revelation 11:7; Revelation13:1-18; Revelation 16:10-17:17

Women were used to represent religious city or nation, and when unfaithful to God, was considered an adulterous woman, or prostitute, hence why Babylon the Great is the woman that prostitutes with the kings of the earth. Isaiah 1:21, 22; Isaiah 57:3; Jeremiah 5:7-9; Ezekiel 16:1-52; Ezekiel 23:5-49; Hosea 9:1; Nahum 3:1-19; Revelation 17:1-19:3

It's really up to us, if we want to stay consistent with the scriptures, or confuse ourselves and others, by having no set criterion, other than whatever we or others decide.

reddogs said:

So is Pagan Rome and Papal Rome a king or kingdom, this is were it gets tricky but yet they are there...

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It's either religious, or it's not.
A woman does not become a man, because she plays a harlot.
The reason she becomes a harlot is because of what she gets involved with.
Because a religious system gets involved in what it ought not - politics... thus prostituting, that doesn't make it non-religious.
What you are seeing is the harlotry.

It's similar to when the so-called priests got involved in bloody wars and murder.
These are the fruits. The Scribes and Pharisees set the example for others to follow - becoming political themselves. They even had their own officers and guards.
Papal Rome walked in their footsteps.

The woman lifted her skirts, but she is still a woman.... In God's eyes, she hasn't changed her "nature".
If you insist though, don't let me stop you. A man convinced against his own will, is of the same mind still.

You haven't yet showed me a working chart.
When are you going to do that?

reddogs said:

Career began to be worshiped as a god, and we see that transfered with the Pope, so it had both the temporal and religious aspects...

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Pharaoh was considered god.
Yet, God referred to Egypt as a political entity.
It doesn't matter what elements are within.

I think we are getting distracted away from the Bible's usage.

Reddog, in your post # 6, you state “Yes the fourth beast of biblical prophecy was pagan Rome. There are seven beasts of biblical prophecy however. Papal Rome was the fifth, and will be resurrected as it were to be the seventh and final beast also…”

Yes, the forth beast is Rome. However, Papal Rome is represented as a “little horn” growing out of the forth beast, Rome, Papal Rome is never represented as a beast power as you claim.

You state, “The fifth head, or prophetic beast if you will, Papal Rome, is the head that received the deadly wound which is healed, and all the world wonders after. It received a deadly wound in 1798,…”

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.”

Adventist like you who continue to believe that the beast of Rev. 13:1-10 is papal Rome fail to except that teaching goes against the clear word of prophecy. Papal Rome came into existence in 538 A.D. and ruled supreme over Europe for 1260 years, and as you correctly understand received a deadly wound in 1798.

The beast of Rev. 13:1-10, is a very different beast than the forth beast of Dan. 7, of which the little horn/papacy emerges. Most importantly the sea beast of Rev. 13, comes on the scene AFTER ONE OF IT’S HEADS IS HEALED. Prophecy does not reveal the fifth head had the deadly wound, as you state. The wound began to heal in 1929 under the Lateran Treaty, and as you state, “When President Reagan reestablished political ties with the Vatican by sending a US ambassador to the same, we entered into political cooperation with the church of Rome to raise her back to a position of power which will be even greater than that which she exercised in the past. A global dominance.” As you imply the wound is not yet completely healed, therefore, this sea beast has not yet formed and arrived on the worlds stage.

I believe the papacy is in it’s healing stage and is represented as one of the seven heads on the sea beast, which I understand are seven base religions of the world and the ten horns are ten kings, also represented as the kingdom of toes in Dan. 2:42-44. Thus we have a beast/kingdom of seventeen player that will emerge sometime in the future having global domination for 42 literal months, after rising from the sea, after the head representing the papacy’s wound HAS BEEN HEALED.

If I were to ask you, what circumstances will cause this sea beast to emerge on the world’s scene I’m certain you would have no clue. Yet prophecy is very explicit in outlining the events.

You state, “The United States is the sixth beast of biblical prophecy, or sixth head of the dragon if you will…” and give the following texts in support.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Lets consider the facts, prophecy reveals the beast from the earth Rev. 13:11-18, comes up or on the world’s stage after the sea beast, but not before one of it’s heads/the papacy wound which it received in 1798 is healed. Historical facts reveal that wound started to heal in 1929 and is ongoing to this day. Therefore, this beast has not materialized as of yet. Facts also reveal that the United States came to be as a nation in 1776, twenty two years before the deadly wound was inflicted on the papacy.

So based on these facts the beast from the earth as well, has not yet appeared, and is not the United States. However, if you understood prophecy correctly you would know that the beast coming out of the earth is Satan himself, masquerading as God.

You may know from Mrs. White’s writing that Satan will appear on earth in bodily form near the end. Which will be the greatest deception facing mankind since earth began. That being the case, you should consider why God did not reveal that to us in prophecy. Well the truth is He has in many prophecies, but Historicists/ Adventists have misinterpreted those prophecies and believe the Antichrist is the pope, instead of Satan, misinforming thousands leaving them unprepared should they find themselves facing this deception during the tribulation.

As I see it, these simple facts make the rest of your posts in this thread in support of your interpretation mute.