Heaven Or Hell

1Tonne · Mar 19, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
The whole world has and will never wander after Islam. It doesn’t fit with the timeline or all of the descriptions as shown in Daniel 7, 8, 13,17 etc

Don't dismiss it so easily. It fits very well. Youtube it. Even the surrounding countries in the end times that are mentioned in the bible are countries that are now Muslim and they hate Israel. So, check it out. You may be surprised.

SabbathBlessings said:
but I see you are set in your beliefs so no point in going further.

I think you are wrong in your about me not being open. When I was young, I used to believe in the rapture. First I believed in a pre-trib because that is what people told me. Then I believed in a post-trib rapture for all believers. But now I know that it is wrong. I believe what Jesus said, that believers are raised on the last day and not before. Only the martyrs are raised as Rev 20 says. I used to believe that the Catholic Church was where the antichrist would come from. But now I think Islam fits better. I investigate, Amillennialism and Preterism to see if I can make better sense of them. So, in regard to being open, I study and listen and read other people's views and I have come to my conclusions. But I am still open.

I hope you are open enough to do a little study on Islam. (NOTE: Be careful studying it as Islam can be dangerous for Christians to investigate. Even firm believers can start to question themselves if not careful. I have seen this happen. A great delusion can come upon them.)

I will watch your video tonight.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 20, 2025

1Tonne said:
Don't dismiss it so easily. It fits very well. Youtube it. Even the surrounding countries in the end times that are mentioned in the bible are countries that are now Muslim and they hate Israel. So, check it out. You may be surprised.

Israel in Revelation is spiritual Israel it represents God's people, both Jew and Gentile. Gal 3:26-29, Rom 2:28-29 Romans 9:6-9 When God destroyed the temple in 70AD it was the end of the earthy temple and it's about the Heavenly Temple Heb 8:1-5 and about our temple.1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Israel temple will never be built up again, keeping our eyes on something God tore down and destroyed will prevent us from seeing biblical Truth on who we need to be concerned with. Islam is not the last beast, its toes are not iron and clay, the 4 beast is Rome and the little horn grew out of Rome, which is not Islam, it doesn't fit the timeline or all the prophecies.

I think you underestimate how much Rome influences the world. People centuries ago, fled from the Roman influence and persecution but now, for example on the US supreme court they all used to be Protestants, now they are all Catholic. Our president went to Catholic school. You would be surprised how many roads lead to Rome, how much worldly influence she has and will continue. The pope deems himself the leader of the world in religious matters and Rome openly admits they changed God's times and laws that most the world follows instead of obeying God and His commandments, His version that God personally wrote and spoke, as if there is any greater Authority than God. She calls herself the vicar of Christ which means in place of Christ, which is what the antichrist also means, Christ has all authority, no one else Mat 28:18. The deadly wound has healed and fits every prophecy and the timeline in Dan 7,8 and Revelation. I believe the Reformers who came out of Babylon were on to something, we too must come out of Babylon or our false teachings before its too late Rev 18:4

If you have an open mind go through the videos I posted.

BelieveItOarKnot · Mar 20, 2025

CoreyD said:
I thought the questions I asked were very simple question.
Did you find the questions a little difficult?

Let's apply the scriptural answers to the three questions, to your response.

Was King David a good man? Of course he was. 1 Samuel 13:14; 1 Kings 15:5, 11; Acts 13:22 No doubt about it - King David was a good man.

When King David died, did he go to heaven? The Bible answers... "David did not ascend to heaven..." Acts 2:34 So, No. When King David died, he did not go to heaven.

Where is King David now? "David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day." Acts 2:29 Where everyone goes when they die... including Jesus. (For scriptural references, please see this post.) That's where David is today.

Your answer, Clare, would suggest that either...

David did not believe in the promise

David went to heaven, even though the Bible says he did not.

Both of which are incorrect.
Since all good people do not go to heaven... according to the scriptures, the teaching that they do, is based on a misunderstanding.
People have mistakenly applied the scriptures pertaining to the Saints, or Holy ones, to every righteous person.

Mistakes do occur. So that's okay.
We make mistakes in our understanding of the scriptures... but are we willing to adjust our view? That is the important question.
Let's try to adjust our understanding, to fit the scripture.

Please see Part 2 of this post... and have a good day Clare.

Maybe an important distinction:

Eccl. 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Another distinction is that there is no such person as good or bad when it's logically provably both positions for everyone, neither of which qualifies any person for heaven, which qualifications and entrance is by unmerited Grace and Mercy in Christ, which I believe every person will experience, and even this not to the whole of them in our present life. We all bear our adversary in the flesh, the tempter in our own minds that is not us, that God has bound us all with.

These aren't necessarily easy subjects and were never meant to be fully understood, at least by the opposition movement

Mercy Shown · Mar 20, 2025

CoreyD said:
I have only used the word 'good' as a reference to what has been taught traditionally, but those who are 'righteous' in God's eyes are promised everlasting life.
We both believe that, so there is no contention there.
What's being considered here, is, do all righteous people go to heaven.
The Bible does not teach that, which is contrary to what is traditionally taught.

Again, righteous in who’s eyes, certainly, as the apostle Paul desired, anyone found in the righteousness of Jesus Christ will be saved, but those who are found in their own righteousness will not.

So if we are talking about the righteous who are judged so by God, then, yes, all of those will be saved.

Mercy Shown · Mar 20, 2025

fhansen said:
And yet God doesn't leave us ignorant, either. He gives us the commandments, the parable of the Good Samaritan, Matthew 25:31-46, identifies the kinds of deeds which will earn us a death, etc

Yes, the wage of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. This is actually quite an interesting contrast since there’s no mention of earning eternal life. It would appear that the only thing we humans can earn is eternal death and if we want eternal life, we must accept it as a gift.

1Tonne · Mar 20, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
If you have an open mind go through the videos I posted.

Yes, I have. I have watched 3 of them.

Did you look up Islam and Daniel and watch a couple of videos?
This may help.

Check out other videos from this channel. They have a lot on Islam and Daniel.

CoreyD · Mar 22, 2025

Mercy Shown said:
Again, righteous in who’s eyes, certainly, as the apostle Paul desired, anyone found in the righteousness of Jesus Christ will be saved, but those who are found in their own righteousness will not.

So if we are talking about the righteous who are judged so by God, then, yes, all of those will be saved.

Yes. Righteous in God's eyes.
The thread though is not about who will or will not be saved.
All the righteous will be saved, of course. However, the thread is highlighting the error in the teaching that all the righteous will be in heaven.

Most persons equate salvation with heaven. However, the Bible paints a very different picture.

Mercy Shown said:
Yes, the wage of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. This is actually quite an interesting contrast since there’s no mention of earning eternal life. It would appear that the only thing we humans can earn is eternal death and if we want eternal life, we must accept it as a gift.

Sounds quite reasonable to me.
What some are suggesting, is that eternal life in wretchedness is not a gift, but a punishment - a reward.
As you pointed out, there is a difference between life and death. Death is not life. They are opposites. That's a fact.

1Tonne · Mar 22, 2025

CoreyD said:
Yes. Righteous in God's eyes.
The thread though is not about who will or will not be saved.
All the righteous will be saved, of course. However, the thread is highlighting the error in the teaching that all the righteous will be in heaven.

Most persons equate salvation with heaven. However, the Bible paints a very different picture.

There are none that are righteous. No, not even one.

We all deserve the death sentance but the blood of Jesus covers the sins of those who have put their faith in Him. So, it is by faith alone that we are saved.
Now, how we act in life is based on our beliefs. For example, if I told you that there is a land mine in the path, if you choose not to believe me, then you will walk straight into it. If you choose to believe me, then you will act accordingly and go around it. Likewise, those who truly believe will choose not to continue to sin. Their desire will be to honour God. (I am not talking about sinless perfection either)
James 2:14-20 says, "What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?"
Notice in the last verse that it says that some may say we simply need faith to be saved but these people are foolish. They think that all they need to do is believe and then they can continue in sin and they are still saved. But these people ignore James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone"
So, we are saved by faith in Jesus and then those who truly believe will choose to honour Him by leaving their sin.

CoreyD · Mar 23, 2025

1Tonne said:
There are none that are righteous. No, not even one.

We all deserve the death sentance but the blood of Jesus covers the sins of those who have put their faith in Him. So, it is by faith alone that we are saved.
Now, how we act in life is based on our beliefs. For example, if I told you that there is a land mine in the path, if you choose not to believe me, then you will walk straight into it. If you choose to believe me, then you will act accordingly and go around it. Likewise, those who truly believe will choose not to continue to sin. Their desire will be to honour God. (I am not talking about sinless perfection either)
James 2:14-20 says, "What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?"
Notice in the last verse that it says that some may say we simply need faith to be saved but these people are foolish. They think that all they need to do is believe and then they can continue in sin and they are still saved. But these people ignore James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone"
So, we are saved by faith in Jesus and then those who truly believe will choose to honour Him by leaving their sin.

So, you ran away from addressing scriptures pertaining to the topic of discussion, to return to argue a non issue, and one that is not worth debating, since there is no argument on whether or not the righteous exist, as God declares persons righteous.
Romans 1:17; Romans 2:13; Romans 3:19-4:8; Romans 3:27-4:6; Romans 5:7-9; Romans 5:18, 19; Romans 8:30-34; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Galatians 2:15-17; Galatians 3:7-12; Galatians 3:24;

So, they are righteous.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, Let us accept what the scriptures say, and stop arguing against them.

Why are you against what God says Tonne?
Do you recall the words Paul said to Elymas?
Acts 13:9, 10

Paul said this to Elymas, because Satan was speaking through Elymas, and using him to undermine faith in God, and the scriptures.
It can easily happen, especially, when we want to support beliefs that run contrary to the scriptures.
We need to be very careful, because God let's Satan take full control of our mind when we don't love the truth, for whatever reason.

Sometimes, it may be because we depend too much on our own thinking.
Whatever the case, we end up opposing truth - a very dangerous position to be in.

So, back to the subject you bailed out from?

ViaCrucis · Mar 23, 2025

The Pagans thought of the good having a good afterlife, and the bad having a bad afterlife.

The Bible instead talks about how God sets a world gone wrong back to rights--our salvation is God's redemptive work to do that. So it's not about "good people go to heaven" and "bad people go to hell"; it's God meeting the broken and battered world, lost in sin and death, and restoring it--there are those who are part of God's rescue project, and there are those who insist on rejecting it. That's "heaven" and "hell", sinners redeemed and made alive in the Risen Christ vs sinners insisting on retaining death and partaking in our collaboration and collusion with death in the slavery of the old dead Adam. The dead old man who is passing away, the alive new man who lives in the life abundant forever.

-CryptoLutheran

1Tonne · Mar 23, 2025

CoreyD said:
Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, Let us accept what the scriptures say, and stop arguing against them.

Why are you against what God says Tonne?

I am not against what God says. There is none that are righteous. The only thing that makes us righteous is the blood of Christ. We put our faith in Him and He imputes His righteousness onto us.

CoreyD · Mar 23, 2025

1Tonne said:
I am not against what God says. There is none that are righteous. The only thing that makes us righteous is the blood of Christ. We put our faith in Him and He imputes His righteousness onto us.

There are none righteous.
The only thing that makes us righteous is the blood of Christ.

This is also a contradiction.
It also defies logic, as A cannot be true, and yet not true.

1Tonne · Mar 23, 2025

CoreyD said:
There are none righteous.

The only thing that makes us righteous is the blood of Christ.

This is also a contradiction.
It also defies logic, as A cannot be true, and yet not true.

To be righteous, we need to act in accordance with divine or moral law. So, we are free from guilt or sin.

Definition of RIGHTEOUS

acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin; morally right or justifiable; arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Everyone has sinned. So, there is none that are righteous. No, not even one. The wages of sin is death. So, we all are in big trouble. Luckily, Jesus died in our place for our sins. He took the punishment and so now, we can be treated as righteous.

CoreyD · Mar 23, 2025

1Tonne said:
I am not against what God says. There is none that are righteous. The only thing that makes us righteous is the blood of Christ. We put our faith in Him and He imputes His righteousness onto us.

I'm trying to help you Tonne, but I realize that my help is not appreciated, so I'll leave you with this.
Think of all the people you want to help, including the children.

So, you tell them no one is righteous, and they go home and read their Bible, where they find the expression "the righteous" more than a hundred times. Psalm 11:5; Psalm 34:19; Psalm 55:22; Proverbs 10:1-11:8
They read the book of Job, where God says of him... “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” Job 1:8

What would they think about this man in the park?
Would they not think you are contradicting God... even calling him a liar?
Would some not wonder about the source of the things coming out your mouth?

Not even a thank you, for helping you with scriptures.
However, you are most welcome.
I share freely for all.

1Tonne · Mar 23, 2025

CoreyD said:
Would they not think you are contradicting God... even calling him a liar?

That is a silly argument as I can use the same on you. Read Romans 3:10. Are you saying that God is a liar?

I have shown you how I reconcile Romans 3:10 and also other scriptures where the bible calls people righteous. So, we can be both a sinner, but righteous at the same time. We put our faith in Him and He imputes His righteousness onto us.
So, how do you reconcile Romans 3:10? It says that there are none that are righteous. Not even one.
"There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10

CoreyD said:
What would they think about this man in the park?
Would they not think you are contradicting God... even calling him a liar?
Would some not wonder about the source of the things coming out your mouth?

No need for a condescending tone. You are starting to be rude. That is not needed. I have not been rude to you.
No one apart from Jesus is righteous. If you are righteous then you are without sin and that would make you a liar. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

SabbathBlessings · Mar 24, 2025

1Tonne said:
That is a silly argument as I can use the same on you. Read Romans 3:10. Are you saying that God is a liar?

I have shown you how I reconcile Romans 3:10 and also other scriptures where the bible calls people righteous. So, we can be both a sinner, but righteous at the same time. We put our faith in Him and He imputes His righteousness onto us.
So, how do you reconcile Romans 3:10? It says that there are none that are righteous. Not even one.
"There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10

No need for a condescending tone. You are starting to be rude. That is not needed. I have not been rude to you.
No one apart from Jesus is righteous. If you are righteous then you are without sin and that would make you a liar. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Sorry to jump in, I agree with you, no one is righteous and we only receive our righteousness through Christ. He is the only one who has not sinned and why He could take our place for this debt Rom 6:23 and He lived to be our example to follow. 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22. It sounds like you are indicating that if we are in Him, we stay in our sinful state, but I believe the scriptures say something different. Our obedience to Him leads to righteousness continuing in sin leads us down the wrong path Rom 6:16 May 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15

Through Christ I do not believe He leaves us in our sinful state, we are told to die of sin and walk a new life in Christ Rom 6:1-4. Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 not in our sins Heb 10:26. He is such a big God I believe He not only came to save us from the penalty of sin, but from the power of sin and through Him, we can live as Jesus lived.

We are told there is a people who overcomes

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God (His version) and the faith of Jesus.

What was the faith of Jesus, it is everything He taught and how He lived and the Bible promises He has a people who keep both His commandments and the same faith of Jesus, and I believe the commandments are God’s version, what He personally wrote and spoke, His personal Testimony Exo 31:18 that no man can edit Deut 4:2 Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 because no man is above our God the same commandments Jesus kept that we need to keep if we abide in Jesus John 15:4,5,10 1 John 2:6 there is no other way John 15:6

This is the faith that reconciles us back to Christ- sin separated man from God Isa 59:2 our faith in Christ and through Him, He changes us from the inside out where we want to obey Him through faith and love which reconciles us

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

CoreyD · Mar 24, 2025

1Tonne said:
That is a silly argument as I can use the same on you. Read Romans 3:10. Are you saying that God is a liar?

You are right. It's a silly argument, and never should have started.

1Tonne said:
I have shown you how I reconcile Romans 3:10 and also other scriptures where the bible calls people righteous. So, we can be both a sinner, but righteous at the same time. We put our faith in Him and He imputes His righteousness onto us.
So, how do you reconcile Romans 3:10? It says that there are none that are righteous. Not even one.
"There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10

So, let me try to understand you.
People are righteous when they meet God's criteria.
Is that true or false?

1Tonne said:
No need for a condescending tone. You are starting to be rude. That is not needed. I have not been rude to you.
No one apart from Jesus is righteous. If you are righteous then you are without sin and that would make you a liar. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

If you see drawing to your attention how people might see an individual saying contradicting things, is being rude, I will not do that again, Tonne.
I apologize, and you can be sure, I will not do that again... Actually, I said that before, and I am repeating.
It's a weakness. I'm sorry.
I will work on not being firm when talking to persons here, and I will keep any "reproof" to myself.

Paul reproved Peter. Was he rude to do so?
However, I accept your reproof. I am being a bit too firm.

Let me start again. Please scratch my previous rudeness.
From today I work extra hard at toning down, and please Tonne, may you do the same, because I don't think I did anything that you have not done on these forums.
So, probably we can both start over.

Tonne, at Romans Paul quotes the Psalmist..
Psalm 14:1-3;

1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.

2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

Psalm 53:1-3

1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; There is none who does good.

2 God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.

3 Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

Did you notice whom are the ones not righteous?
They, in those verses, are the fools.
Surely, you don't think all of us are fools, do you?
Theses are not the ones who meet God's standard of righteousness.

God has set the "bar" for imperfect people to reach.
Once an imperfect person reaches that "bar" - God's standards of righteousness, they are righteous.
It is not a matter of being righteous to self. That is self righteousness. It is rather a matter of being righteous to God.
That is what the poster I was responding to said, and what I agreed with.
So, one can be righteous, even though sinful. The scriptures say it is the righteous that will be rewarded with everlasting life. The Bible uses the word righteous over 1,000 times.
I hope you understand that.

If the context of the statement is understood, we agree, and can move on.

That is the end of my conversation on a subject that is not the topic of the thread, and I would rather spend time discussing the topic, which you" bailed" out from, than engaging in a "silly" argument.

I hope that does not sound rude. I am just letting you know the turn the thread has taken, which is not preferred.

CoreyD · Mar 24, 2025

1Tonne said:
So, we can be both a sinner, but righteous at the same time.

If you are righteous then you are without sin and that would make you a liar

Forgive me Tonne, but I just wanted to draw your attention to this.
Do these two statements agree?

Mercy Shown · Mar 24, 2025

CoreyD said:
Yes. Righteous in God's eyes.
The thread though is not about who will or will not be saved.
All the righteous will be saved, of course. However, the thread is highlighting the error in the teaching that all the righteous will be in heaven.

Most persons equate salvation with heaven. However, the Bible paints a very different picture.

Sounds quite reasonable to me.
What some are suggesting, is that eternal life in wretchedness is not a gift, but a punishment - a reward.
As you pointed out, there is a difference between life and death. Death is not life. They are opposites. That's a fact.

If you are suggesting that Hell is not an eternal punishment, I would agree. But I am stilled confused as to your definition of righteous. And where you suggest the righteous who will not be in Heaven shall reside?

CoreyD · Mar 24, 2025

Mercy Shown said:
If you are suggesting that Hell is not an eternal punishment, I would agree. But I am stilled confused as to your definition of righteous. And where you suggest the righteous who will not be in Heaven shall reside?

Thanks for asking, and considering the topic of the thread.
I don't think there is any disagreement on the righteous, between us... at least I hope not, since it's very straight forward.

If you find it's not that straightforward, the Bible leaves no doubt as to what it means to be righteous.
Ezekiel 18:5, 9

5 Now suppose a man is righteous and does what is just and right: 9 He follows My statutes and faithfully keeps My ordinances. That man is righteous; surely he will live, declares the Lord GOD.

I hope we can agree that this is very basic, as simple as it gets, so that we don't have to pull up multiple scriptures to explain it.

I did use the scriptures to explain what the scriptures say regarding the purpose of anyone going to heaven, and that by extension the righteous that will make up the new earth, but you may have missed it, since I was posting to someone else.

So, please give me a moment, and I will extract those for you, since I don't want this to be taken as 'my suggestion', but rather, what the scriptures are teaching.... which is highly important.

...and thanks again for making the effort to consider the topic.

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