Help with Ex 34:6-8

Rose_bud · Jan 9, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
It is a 'both and' not an 'either or'

Totally, Gods wrath is a just response to a violation of His Holiness. As to the post, I see this passage through a lens of love, that even though the Israelites would be sent into exile for their idolatry, God was giving Jeremiah a hopeful sign that they would return, (the title deed in the clay pots) Jeremiah 32:13-15. Jeremiah prays appealing to the character of Gods love and justice.

Jeremiah 32:18-19 You show loving devotion to thousands but lay the iniquity of the fathers into the laps of their children after them, O great and mighty God whose name is the LORD of Hosts, the One great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are on all the ways of the sons of men, to reward each one according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds.

Their failure to uphold the treaty they signed with God, resulted in their exile. But God is just in his divine wrath but His mercy transcends... Most commentaries highlight the literary style of the author contrasting Gods graciousness and mercy to the thousands compared to the discipline exacted against the third and forth. I agree with this, its consistent with Gods dealing with all of humanity especially in light of the forgiveness and love we have received in Christ :clap:

. His love outweighs...

Carl Emerson · Jan 10, 2024

Rose_bud said:
Totally, Gods wrath is a just response to a violation of His Holiness. As to the post, I see this passage through a lens of love, that even though the Israelites would be sent into exile for their idolatry, God was giving Jeremiah a hopeful sign that they would return, (the title deed in the clay pots) Jeremiah 32:13-15. Jeremiah prays appealing to the character of Gods love and justice.

Jeremiah 32:18-19 You show loving devotion to thousands but lay the iniquity of the fathers into the laps of their children after them, O great and mighty God whose name is the LORD of Hosts, the One great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are on all the ways of the sons of men, to reward each one according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds.

Their failure to uphold the treaty they signed with God, resulted in their exile. But God is just in his divine wrath but His mercy transcends... Most commentaries highlight the literary style of the author contrasting Gods graciousness and mercy to the thousands compared to the discipline exacted against the third and forth. I agree with this, its consistent with Gods dealing with all of humanity especially in light of the forgiveness and love we have received in Christ. His love outweighs...

Yes what you say is very important - particularly in the light of matters concerning the Jews today.

honey badger · Jan 10, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Friends - Does this principle apply to believers in the New Covenant - please give Scriptural support for you understanding.

Exodus 34

6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; 7 who keeps faithfulness for thousands, who forgives wrongdoing, violation of His Law, and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” 8 And Moses hurried to bow low toward the ground and worship.

All responses appreciated.

its all about process of a son becoming clean as in acceptable

Each generation lives in the narrative they define (as each individual does ) blending and mixing their perception with that which was before them but at the same time trying to break away from the bondage they perceive the last generation to be snared by, only to become this same thing to the next generation, and often becoming the very thing they despised in the first place.

Job only saw his grand children to the fourth generation ...

But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full

Daniel 3:24-26 speaks to this

ps: the word four in Hebrew is dalet which means door

I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and will go out and will find pasture.

Hazelelponi · Jan 10, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Friends - Does this principle apply to believers in the New Covenant - please give Scriptural support for you understanding.

Exodus 34

6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; 7 who keeps faithfulness for thousands, who forgives wrongdoing, violation of His Law, and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” 8 And Moses hurried to bow low toward the ground and worship.

All responses appreciated.

Jeremiah 31:27-30

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will plant the kingdoms of Israel and Judah with the offspring of people and of animals. 28 Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord. 29 “In those days people will no longer say,

‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.

^^^ No. The Exodus passage doesn't apply under the New Covenant.

Does God "Visit the Sins of the Fathers on the Children"?

Great and lasting things are at stake for future generations not only because of what we teach, but also because of what we are.

www.desiringgod.org

^^^ nice little teaching on the topic.

throughfiierytrial · Jan 16, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Friends - Does this principle apply to believers in the New Covenant - please give Scriptural support for you understanding.

Exodus 34

6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; 7 who keeps faithfulness for thousands, who forgives wrongdoing, violation of His Law, and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” 8 And Moses hurried to bow low toward the ground and worship.

All responses appreciated.

No, does not apply to NT believers.
In looking ahead to the fulfillment of the work of the Messiah the LORD says these words to Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31:29-32:
29 “In those days people will no longer say,

‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.

Veni · Jan 17, 2024

Ezekiel 18
A father cannot save his son.
A son cannot save his father.

Matthew 10:36
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Carl Emerson · Jan 17, 2024

So we seem to agree that as far as judgement goes there is no transfer of guilt across generations in the New Covenant.

However that does not mean a next generation cannot be affected by the sins of the previous - correct ???

Veni · Jan 17, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
So we seem to agree that as far as judgement goes there is no transfer of guilt across generations in the New Covenant.

However that does not mean a next generation cannot be affected by the sins of the previous - correct ???

Agreed

Veni · Jan 17, 2024

So if a father cannot save his son, he is not a father.

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

Veni · Jan 17, 2024

Exodus 34
The punishment only can be inflicted, if children becomes a father.... Hmmm

Carl Emerson · Jan 18, 2024

Can we have a few more comments on Post #27 please.

I repeat it here.

====================================================

So we seem to agree that as far as judgement goes there is no transfer of guilt across generations in the New Covenant.

However that does not mean a next generation cannot be affected by the sins of the previous - correct ???

====================================================

I's2C · Jan 20, 2024

Carl Emerson said:
Friends - Does this principle apply to believers in the New Covenant - please give Scriptural support for you understanding.

Exodus 34

6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; 7 who keeps faithfulness for thousands, who forgives wrongdoing, violation of His Law, and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.” 8 And Moses hurried to bow low toward the ground and worship.

All responses appreciated.

Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
It simply means that if people don't turn from their ways and still commit the sins their fathers did such as idolatry that they would continue in punishments of that sin; Ill go a step further, even if they still practice idolatry for 100 generations and not turn from it, they will get the same punishment their fathers did. GOD never changes and HIS punishments don't change either. If you are thinking that someone gets punishment for what their fathers did, that is not what is meant, for if they turn from the sins of their fathers and to GOD they will be forgiven and even blessed.

Dan Perez · Mar 10, 2025

Bobber said:
It didn't even apply to people of that day that is in the sense of how some twist this today and call it generational curses. It did mean though that when the nation would come under punishment's it usually meant they were taken into captivity. Of course that included their chidden as well.

And it does not say NEW COVENANT !! The NEW COVENANT begins Eze 37 !!

It is I BELIEVE the OLD COVENANT is replaced in Acts 28:25--28 and this just one of them !!

And the Hebrew word GENERATION is NOT in the Hebrew text in Ex 34:6 and 7

dan p

throughfiierytrial · Mar 18, 2025

Are you concerned over the rather harsh words towards the guilty? Assuming so, this was the condition from the beginning. It is Law. Remember however, that the OT Law cannot save. O.T. believers were pointed to the promised Messiah. It is the spirit of the Law to, among other functions, show us our sin and our utter helplessness to be saved w/o the Messiah. We recognize our wholely lost condition.
God gradually unfolds His Gospel plan leading up to Christ's birth already in the O.T. (Isaiah is referred to by some as the OT Gospel, for instance)
The passage you may wish to study for yourself may be...
Jeremiah 31:29-30.

I hope this helps.

stevevw · Mar 22, 2025

I think maybe there are two different aspects to these two seemingly opposing verses.

In one instance the first Exodus 34: 6-8 to me seems to be talking about a generational curse similar to the curses in Genesis. A result of sin. But I don't think its like a plague or punishment applied but something in our fallen nature that when sin enters into a generation it takes that long for it to begin to wash out.

Not so much that the consequences end but that like a blot in our nature that causes an effect on our nature which gets passed on. Whether than is by cultural or social practices that become entrenched and passed on or undermine peoples focus on God and being temporarily blind to the truth. Perhaps pride and other sins take hold and it takes time for the trust and faith to rebuild.

Whereas Ezekiel 18: 19-20 seems to be about the individual within the generational curse that doesn't necessarily apply to all individuals as God also sees us as individuals with out own conscience. That is why 'Guilt' is highlighted. The fathers guilt. The guilt of the original sinners is not placed on the future individuals who happen to follow God as they are themselves obedient and are able to make themselves right with God.

With a God as described in Exodus. A compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth; 7 who keeps faithfulness for thousands, who forgives wrongdoing, violation of His Law.

Which makes sense as God always works this way. He punished sin but always gives a way out.

But I would imagine that like Sodom it can get to a point where every generation is sinning and there is no letup on the curse or the reaping of what one sows. Thats why obedience to Gods law and order today is harder but so important in being able to bring some sanity and order today.

Bob Crowley · Mar 22, 2025

Carl Emerson said:
So we seem to agree that as far as judgement goes there is no transfer of guilt across generations in the New Covenant.

However that does not mean a next generation cannot be affected by the sins of the previous - correct ???

I think it is obvious that the next generation can be affected by the sins of the previous one. Germany is a case in point - the nation was divided for about 44 years after WWII with the Soviets controlling the eastern half and the west having control over the west. It was almost half a century before the nation was reunited.

The Israelites who went into captivity in Babylon were not all refugees. By the time they came back to Jerusalem, most of the population would been born in exile, and would have had nothing to do with the punishment imposed upon them.

A psychiatrist I used to go to was involved with family healing masses. He had some interesting stories about the way actions by ancestors can afftect their descendants.

Unfortunately as I was browsing the web to try to find some reference to those stories, I happened upon a funeral notice. Apparently both the psychiatrist and his wife died in July last year which was a complete surprise. Had I known I'd have gone to the funeral myself.

Finding out about his passing was a byproduct of this particular forum post.

Bob Crowley · Mar 22, 2025

On a more spiritual note, there are some stories here that indicate someone related to them - family member, ancestor - can have a negative influence on subsequent generations. My psychiatrist was Dr. Wilkie and his name comes up in the article.

PSYCHIATRY MANIFESTED EXAMPLES
All the stories are from Dr. Kenneth McAll's book as far as I know, but Dr. Wilkie could have supplied similar tales due to his dual role as a psychiatrist and spiritual healer.

Carl Emerson · Mar 24, 2025

The prayers of our ancestors for coming generations would be most certainly heard in heaven and bring grace and blessing on descendants.

Would not ancestors who cursed their family line likewise bring spiritual oppression on future generations?

Help with Ex 34:6-8

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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