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A healthy, biblical prosperity theology

HatGuy

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I recently read Frank D. Macchia on there being a valid prosperity theology-


Or on YouTube:

Unfortunately he doesn’t seem to expound much further nor give any clues as to where to go for further study on the topic.

Finding anything online on this is impossible - it’s filled with people hating on prosperity theology.

Now I have my reasons too for hating it, but I think Macchia has a point with what he is saying in those two links.

His prominent point is context matters. Poor people need to know it’s within the nature of God to take care of them - and to do it abundantly.

Does anyone have any links or preachers you know of who preach prosperity, or something like it, in a biblically faithful way? That’s faithful to God’s nature? Because I don’t think the haters are also always getting it right. I’d really like to explore this topic.
 

rocknanchor

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Does anyone have any links or preachers you know of who preach prosperity, or something like it, in a biblically faithful way? That’s faithful to God’s nature? Because I don’t think the haters are also always getting it right. I’d really like to explore this topic.
Surer than most. SOURCE
 
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Johan2222

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Does anyone have any links or preachers you know of who preach prosperity, or something like it, in a biblically faithful way? That’s faithful to God’s nature? Because I don’t think the haters are also always getting it right. I’d really like to explore this topic.
Interesting how proponents of a particular theology are “haters”.

You really don’t seem to appreciate their theology at all and I wonder if you would describe yourself as a “hater” because of it.

Do you judge them as haters because they are rejecting the truth or because you hate their doctrine because it implies you should not attempt to get what you want, which is riches.

You know if you look at the proponents and antagonists of prosperity theology, it’s interesting because they both have very strong evidence to suggest that they are correct.

They both provide scriptures that support their points of view whether it is pro prosperity or anti prosperity and obviously God is not a liar so how can we reconcile these two seemingly opposing theologies that both exist in the Bible?

On the one hand, we have scriptures like this that seem to promote prosperity.

Luke 6:35-38 KJV
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. [36] Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. [37] Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: [38] Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

On the other hand, we have scriptures like this that seem to go against it.

Luke 14:33 NKJV
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

Luke 6:24-26 KJV
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. [25] Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.

James 5:1 KJV
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

Mark 4:19 NKJV
and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

1 Timothy 6:9 NKJV
But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Luke 16:22-25 KJV
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. [25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented

I really do marvel at how obvious and simple the answer is and how few people can actually see it.

If you look at the first scripture above which implies prosperity is advocated, the only way that it can be true and exist with the other scriptures which condemn prosperity is if the prosperity implied does not apply to this age, but to the kingdom of heaven when it is revealed to men.

In all of prosperity theology deceivers omit to mention this fact. All of the scriptures that condemn prosperity cannot be wrong.

Therefore the only way that prosperity theology can be true is if it applies to the age to come, not to this age.

God is not a liar, nor he is he the author of confusion. If prosperity theology was true, people would have many scriptures as evidence to use to accuse God of being a liar.

The fact that you are chasing this elusive dream and calling people who are telling you the truth, “haters” is something I would be very concerned about if I was you.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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The word prosper simply means to succeed. You can prosper (be successful) in many ways and in many areas. You can prosper in your ministry... = be successful. You can prosper in your garden = your seeds bear fruit. You can prosper in your business = by being successful and thriving.
The biggest problem with those who attack prosperity is that they themselves strive to be prosperous = successful. They mistakenly equate "prosperity/success" with greed, wealth, and wealth.
It is not so much theology. It is reading comprehension.
God wants you to be prosperous = successful in what you do.
Not "get rich" or "greedy." But prosper scripturally.
Who is it that would want to kill, steal, and destroy God's will for you to prosper?
I will leave it at that.
 
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rocknanchor

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Instruct the rich in the present age not to be high-minded,
nor to have hope in the uncertainty of riches, but on God,
the One richly providing us all things for enjoyment.
(1Tim 6:17)
 
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Richard T

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Interesting how proponents of a particular theology are “haters”.

You really don’t seem to appreciate their theology at all and I wonder if you would describe yourself as a “hater” because of it.

Do you judge them as haters because they are rejecting the truth or because you hate their doctrine because it implies you should not attempt to get what you want, which is riches.

You know if you look at the proponents and antagonists of prosperity theology, it’s interesting because they both have very strong evidence to suggest that they are correct.

They both provide scriptures that support their points of view whether it is pro prosperity or anti prosperity and obviously God is not a liar so how can we reconcile these two seemingly opposing theologies that both exist in the Bible?

On the one hand, we have scriptures like this that seem to promote prosperity.

Luke 6:35-38 KJV
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. [36] Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. [37] Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: [38] Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

On the other hand, we have scriptures like this that seem to go against it.

Luke 14:33 NKJV
So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

Luke 6:24-26 KJV
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. [25] Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.

James 5:1 KJV
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

Mark 4:19 NKJV
and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

1 Timothy 6:9 NKJV
But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Luke 16:22-25 KJV
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. [25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented

I really do marvel at how obvious and simple the answer is and how few people can actually see it.

If you look at the first scripture above which implies prosperity is advocated, the only way that it can be true and exist with the other scriptures which condemn prosperity is if the prosperity implied does not apply to this age, but to the kingdom of heaven when it is revealed to men.

In all of prosperity theology deceivers omit to mention this fact. All of the scriptures that condemn prosperity cannot be wrong.

Therefore the only way that prosperity theology can be true is if it applies to the age to come, not to this age.

God is not a liar, nor he is he the author of confusion. If prosperity theology was true, people would have many scriptures as evidence to use to accuse God of being a liar.

The fact that you are chasing this elusive dream and calling people who are telling you the truth, “haters” is something I would be very concerned about if I was you.
I think K.E. Hagin teaches it right. His book

The Midas Touch: A Balanced Approach to Biblical Prosperity is a good place to start. He takes to task those that have carried the prosperity message too far. I have seen this work well and i have seen it abused. In the latter category, some preachers major on it, focusing far too much on it. Personally, I would prefer preaching on getting wisdom twice as much as getting material needs met but I would not concentrate on either. Many of the prosperity teacher critics seem to reject but rarely go into details as why. To get anything from God it requires faith, that is far more than just a confession or asking in prayer. Most word of faith people should know this and the limitations and distinctions between faith Foolishness and presumption. A great primer on that is from Fred Price whose book is of the same title. The chasm between a counterfeit and a real prosperity pastor can be quite wide. I nkow one that went to prison for money laundering, a scheme hatched to help the church get out of debt. I know others that basically have great churches with the buildings even paid for and or updated in cash. Imagine how freeing that is to be able to minister with almost no financial worries. I can say though that even Hagin was a poor country preacher at first until he learned to use his faith for God's blessings. Sorry i am late in replying, hope this helps.

 
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Johan2222

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I think K.E. Hagin teaches it right.
Oh, having read your assessment, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you think that.
Sure, you certainly appear to know what is good, I can see that you make that point loud and clear.

He takes to task those that have carried the prosperity message too far.

Sure, thank God you know exactly the perfect balance, right?

Imagine how freeing that is to be able to minister with almost no financial worries.

Anybody with worries of any kind at all should not be teaching anything to do with the gospel. 1 John 4.18. The fact that you think that freedom from worry comes by financial stability explains everything about why you believe you are wise to teach what you do

I can say though that even Hagin was a poor country preacher at first until he learned to use his faith for God's blessings.

Yes what a shame he wasn’t around in the days of Jesus or John or Peter or Paul or any of the disciples who died in utter poverty. I’m sure Mr. Hagin would’ve been able to teach Jesus so much about how to use his faith for God‘s blessings.

Sorry i am late in replying, hope this helps.

Oh sure, it certainly helped me to understand that like all advocates of prosperity theology, your encouragement of double mindedness lies somewhere between;

Luke 9:25 KJV
For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world . . . .

And;

Luke 14:33 KJV
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Of course having come to witness the minds of the double minded at work over the past three decades or so, I’m sure you are itching to explain to everyone precisely why Jesus was such a poor teacher and how he didn’t really mean what he said in Luke 14.33 and why “K.E. Hagin teaches it right.”
 
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Richard T

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It is a great scripture Luke 14:33. And I agree with it but you have to take the bible in totality. Since there are many scriptures that talk about prosperity, one has to reconcile how they and other scriptures like this one in Luke fit together. For instance,
Matthew 19:29, "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Does that sound like a poor person? 100X as much. When Jesus talked to the rich man about needing to sell all his possessions and follow Him, at that point was his testing. If he would have done that he would likely have had it all returned to him many times over and be saved. So yes, while one has to give up everything to come to Christ, it is not necessarily a permanent position of one's status. Hagin, was one who was on the road preaching in many places, living for Jesus and barely getting by. He knew the principles of faith for healing, but he had never applied them to God's provision for his family. God showed him from the word and Hagin was lifted up so much that he ended with a worldwide ministry and schools that has affected millions. It is fine if one thinks you need to take a vow of poverty, laying up treasure in heaven is always great but it is good to stretch your faith to Christ in the financial realm, so that you can be more of a blessing to others.
There was an ORU graduate that was pastoring the Assembly of God church I was attending. He was for sure a poor country boy, married and basically broke. He says he learned to believe God for things even to get through his education as his family gave little help. After graduation, God told him to start a church. Over 40 years later, that church is still there, and he is still preaching. They started out in a rented hotel space. He lived in a basement apartment with his wife. He gave up everything but is he broke now? Absolutely not. Not only is the property he personally bought for 20-30k worth over a million, but the church land is worth more than 5 million than they had paid for it. The church has had no debt for decades, and God has really blessed him and the church. He credits God with all he has and certainly in my mind is someone to be honored. Is that for everyone? Maybe, but only the obedient will know. Someone that gives up everything that later is blessed by God. I do agree though with the bible, that if one is unwilling to give up everything when they come to Christ, then like the rich young man they are not fit for the kingdom. How long this may continue, is up to the Lord, but given the many scriptures on God's desire to bless Christians that give, you would have to think that there might be considerable resources that flow through their hands. This type of prosperity believer is not storing up treasure on earth, they are a conduit and typically leave a legacy of money behind.
Proverbs 13:22: “A good man leaves an inheritance to his grandchildren.”
So to me God does prosper but each individual is somewhat different and it depends on their needs. In general, I rarely talk about money or prosperity but I do not abhor the message, or the fruits that come from those who believe God for an abundance from trusting in Him. Of course one can believe anyway they want, there are singular scriptures that are quite extreme in all sorts of ways, like baptizing for the dead, remaining in the earth until Jesus returns, giving vows of poverty, praying for the sick by anointing with oil. Like giving and receiving one has to balance the scripture and this is done hopefully under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Of course many have differences concerning prosperity teaching. Happy is the man that follows his own conscience and faith in such matters. God bless.
 
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Johan2222

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It is a great scripture Luke 14:33. And I agree with it but you have to take the bible in totality. Since there are many scriptures that talk about prosperity, one has to reconcile how they and other scriptures like this one in Luke fit together. For instance,
Matthew 19:29, "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Does that sound like a poor person? 100X as much.
Was Jesus a liar?

If you understood what kind of gifts Christ is talking about in Matthew 19.29, you would also understand.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 KJV.

John died as a slave on a Roman penal colony, with absolutely nothing, as did Peter Acts 3.6 and many of the disciples who left homes and houses and wives and families for the sake of the gospel.

If your interpretation is correct, then Jesus lied to his disciples.

Was Jesus a liar, as you imply?

James 1: KJV
[9] Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: [10] But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

Will the children of God pass away?

1 John 3:14 NKJV
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. . . .

Do you love your brother by stumbling him into believing that he can be rich so that like the flower of the grass he shall pass away?

Having read so much nonsense from people who advocate for prosperity, I really can see why James was so utterly emphatic about EVERYTHING that double minded men do and say.

James 1:8-10 KJV
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
 
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Richard T

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Was Jesus a liar?

If you understood what kind of gifts Christ is talking about in Matthew 19.29, you would also understand.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 KJV.

John died as a slave on a Roman penal colony, with absolutely nothing, as did Peter Acts 3.6 and many of the disciples who left homes and houses and wives and families for the sake of the gospel.

If your interpretation is correct, then Jesus lied to his disciples.

Was Jesus a liar, as you imply?

James 1: KJV
[9] Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: [10] But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

Will the children of God pass away?

1 John 3:14 NKJV
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. . . .

Do you love your brother by stumbling him into believing that he can be rich so that like the flower of the grass he shall pass away?

Having read so much nonsense from people who advocate for prosperity, I really can see why James was so utterly emphatic about EVERYTHING that double minded men do and say.

James 1:8-10 KJV
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Jesus gives abundant life, it includes salvation, healing and yes prosperity among many other things. The Old Covenant promised blessings, the New Covenant is better. I am single minded about being a conduit for God's provision, as such He blesses me. I really don't see a problem and of course Jesus is not a liar. Of course I do not know everything, and prosperity is not even close to my top ten topics, but I sure can't deny it is ordained during some season of life. It may not mean riches, it can mean other things but if you give finances in faith, it releases a harvest. Of course, you should be content in all things. But if God says through Paul that if you give abundantly you will be blessed abundantly then I take that as God's will. If Jesus says you give up houses for the gospel you will receive a 100 fold then so be it. I respect your beliefs, the original post asked for someone that knew or taught prosperity. I answered that and more. Given that you suggest I imply Jesus a liar, which of course is impossible.
 
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rocknanchor

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Wondering, what level of lack do you find acceptable?
Having read so much nonsense from people who advocate for prosperity, ,"
Error says, it is the ‘cost of Discipleship’ to follow Christ by forsaking all and walking as he did,

Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests,
but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”​
(Luke 9:58)​

So likewise, whoever of you does not
forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.​
(Luke 14:33)​

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became
poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.​
(2 Corinthians 8:9)​

Where would a carnal response to that 'literal poverty' lead us? More poverty by not knowing both sides of the prosperity issue, not until we tap onto God’s practical response to ‘’no place to lay’’ one’s head,

Apostolic practicality says:
Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?
(1Corinthians 11:22)​
Well well, where is that rock pillow we were 'told' to use?
Instruct the rich in the present age not to be high-minded,
nor to have hope in the uncertainty of riches, but on God,
the One richly providing us all things for enjoyment.
(1Tim 6:17)
 
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timewerx

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There is no "healthy", "Godly" way to be materialistic.

Denying yourself materially actually makes you physically strong, heal much faster without medication, resistant to pathogens, toxins, and even aging.

What part of material abundance is good if it makes you weak, spiritually blind, vulnerable to disease and toxins, age much faster, heal very slowly, and very dependent on expensive modern medicine?

Most people don't realize this because they're born into this system of "engineered" weaknesses, wasteful needs, so they think it's the norm and it's the only thing they look forward to. It's the only context they know what "abundance" means. It's all about material things or mostly about material things.

Jesus already told what would jump start our dead spiritual engines. Deny yourself and carry your cross yet the only thing most people expect of God is material blessing to indulge on (as opposed to denying oneself).

Careful what you ask of God. If you ask of good things, God will give you good things. If you ask of bad things, God might be compelled to grant you bad things. If you ask of things that will weaken you spiritually, physically, corrupt your soul and body, God might grant your wish.
 
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rocknanchor

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Deny yourself and carry your cross yet the only thing most people expect of God is material blessing to indulge on (as opposed to denying oneself).
What part of material abundance is good if it makes you weak, spiritually blind, vulnerable to, ,"
Sorry to hear you are experiencing the struggle with post #11s last verse! I will pray He furnish you with contentment and insight to look into this perfect law of liberty, and abundance by His hand and His will.
 
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timewerx

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Sorry to hear you are experiencing the struggle with post #11s last verse! I will pray He furnish you with contentment and insight to look into this perfect law of liberty, and abundance by His hand and His will.

Timothy and Paul did not seem to have indulgent lifestyle in their ministry. So I'm wondering what they meant with "things".

Actually you seem to struggle with the idea of physical / material denial making you physically strong, look young again and/or age slowly if at all.

Only few has been actually touched by the Holy Spirit to be able to do it. Most are drawn to false teachings on prosperity who takes Biblical teachings out of context to find excuse for their worldliness.
 
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rocknanchor

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Timothy and Paul did not seem to have indulgent lifestyle in their ministry. So I'm wondering what they meant with "things".
You can't be serious! You are wondering what they meant? I'll tell you - !! THEY MEANT THE TRUTH !!

'', , but on God, the One richly providing us all things for enjoyment.''

I don't know if you happened to catch that but, it wasn't just ''things'' but ''richly'' ''all things''. I am puzzled why you think it's God's will for His people to live in holy squalor? That is, if you read what others post which grants a well established life of possessions, you erroneously find unacceptable.
 
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Johan2222

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Wondering, what level of lack do you find acceptable?

Error says, it is the ‘cost of Discipleship’ to follow Christ by forsaking all and walking as he did,

Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests,
but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”​
(Luke 9:58)​

So likewise, whoever of you does not
forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.​
(Luke 14:33)​

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became
poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.​
(2 Corinthians 8:9)​

Where would a carnal response to that 'literal poverty' lead us? More poverty by not knowing both sides of the prosperity issue, not until we tap onto God’s practical response to ‘’no place to lay’’ one’s head,

Apostolic practicality says:
Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?
(1Corinthians 11:22)​
Well well, where is that rock pillow we were 'told' to use?
YOU not have houses!

But of himself he writes;

1 Corinthians 4:11 KJV
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

If you were not among the “few chosen” for the “rock pillow” you are not a “disciple” for Christ is not a liar as you imply.

There are those who have no need of teachers and those who have need.

Hebrews 5:12-13 KJV
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. [13] For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

If you were among those of James 3.13, you would understand these things and would have no need of a teacher, but instead of meekness of wisdom, you employ arrogance and sarcasm and therefore have these things been hidden from you.

James 1:5 KJV
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But if you upbraid those who teach you the truth of the Word, do you think God will give you wisdom?
 
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rocknanchor

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YOU not have houses!
Sorry, the translation isn't coming through correctly. Point was quite elementary, we don't have to wander like homeless nomads.
If you were not among the “few chosen” for the “rock pillow” you are not a “disciple” for Christ is not a liar as you imply.
Don't shoot the messenger! For I bring contentment of both lack, yet, need nothing of necessity.
Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! (1Cor 4:8)​

There it is again, that supply-side of our heavenly Father ''by Christ Jesus'' and his riches in glory.

Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content:
I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have
learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. (Phil 4:12)​
 
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Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
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You know, you can apply the bible teachings to become rich in material goods, you just end up becoming blind to the spiritual riches.

Though this path of becoming rich by selectively reading the bible as a self help book .. is discouraged by the text.
 
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rocknanchor

Continue Well 2 John 9
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Though this path of becoming rich by selectively reading the bible as a self help book .. is discouraged by the text.
Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. (Phil 4:12)
As always, if you are referring to something said in particular, please help stem confusion by availing yourself to the quote buttons.
 
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