As all the dead in Hades rise on Judgment Day, why is Luke 16:19-31 cited as proof of eternal torment?

BelieveItOarKnot said:

It's a real thing. But the blinded by the god of this world have no clue

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CoreyD said:

We agree on something.

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@Alfred-Persson​

Alfred-Persson said:

Purgatory evolved from the NT concept of Hades. Unlike Hades in the Bible where all the dead go, purgatory is only for dues paying Catholics in good standing.

Over time, as Israeli Jews who knew what Jesus taught vanished from the Gentile Church, it became confused about Hades and it morphed into purgatory for Catholics. Everyone else was doomed.

The NT concept of Hades is like a "purgatory for all who died unsaved but did not commit eternal sins". The "torments" are designed not just to punish for sin, but to purge the soul of all delusion and slavery to sin.

For example, Christ said all in the grave will hear His voice. Is there anyone in Hades whose body isn't in the grave? Of course not. So Christ says all in Hades will hear His voice, and those who "obediently hear" (John 5:24) will live:

25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
...

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

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Dan Perez said:

They may have pergatory , But there is not Greek word for PERGATORY in KJV at ALL !!

dan p

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David Lamb said:

What do you mean? The KJV is in English, so it is hardly surprising it doesn't have a Greek word in it. However, I do agree that there is no word for "purgatory" in the bible at all.

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Dan Perez said:

and the KJV was ranslated from the Greek and the means PURGATORY is not in the KJV , PERIOD

dan p

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Alfred-Persson said:

In Christ's prophecy/parable the Pharisees would not believe the risen Lazarus (John 12:9-11) and therefore, contrary to their belief Abraham would prevent them from descending into Hades, a child of Abraham is depicted as paying the penalty for his sin. The conversation he has with Abraham lasts only a minute. Nothing is said to be eternal. We know all in Hades come out on Judgment Day. So how is it believers cite this as proof for eternal torment? Rather, it fits the 1st century apostolic concept of hades as a place where souls can repent and live according to God (1 Pet. 4:6):

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)


24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)


22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

The Rich Man does not act like someone who is irreedemably wicked and is suffering Eternal Torment. So how can Bible Believers cite this as proof of eternal torment?

1)His demeanor is not that of a wicked eternally condemned man, he does not blaspheme either Abraham, Lazarus or God even when he doesn’t get what he asked for.
2)Abraham calls him “son…child” displaying affection which implies the rich man is not irredeemably wicked.
3)Both Abraham and many redeemed with him WANT to cross over into Hades to lessen the torment of the rich man. That would be rebellion against God’s Judgment and therefore implies the rich man ultimately would be saved.
4)The symbolic language implies a “torment” with a goal beyond retributive justice:

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance



This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

From all this one could reasonably infer the “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:23-28 RPTE)

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