Orthodoxy and Ethnic Identity

public hermit said:

By structures, I mean the hierarchy/hierarchies. I can't claim to understand the various patriarchates and archbishoprics, but didn't those structures often originate in ethnic differences? If so, then are those differences inherent to the structure?

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As I understand it, the hierarchy is supposed to be geographically ordered, not ethnically ordered. Ethnocentricity can be a legitimate secondary characteristic insofar as it truly represents the makeup of Christians within a geographical region.

There are certainly Orthodox leaders who speak strongly against ethnophyletism. For example, Fr. Josiah Trenham's, "The Vernacular Imperative," or his, "Biggest Challenge for Orthodox Christianity in America":

public hermit said:

By structures, I mean the hierarchy/hierarchies. I can't claim to understand the various patriarchates and archbishoprics, but didn't those structures often originate in ethnic differences? If so, then are those differences inherent to the structure? I don't want to say it's necessary that they be inherent, but they could be and the structures could be such that they, in turn, ensure (or at least, encourage) inherence.

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I think there is a simpler way to put it. In many parishes, the problem doesn’t exist. Where it does exist is in parishes where a significant core of the people are immigrants, so tied to their ethnic origin that they effectively hold it in a higher place than the gospel, however, unintentionally. For those people, the ethnic celebrations become the most important thing, and hearing their native language, rather than English, in the church services, organizing, for example, Greek or Russian schools, possibly in the parish house during the week, etc... this definitely leans toward ethnophyletism. My mother was driven away from a Greek church a block away from her home in central California by the wealthy worldly Greeks there who held their ethnic expression in that higher place, as well as by other issues. That is where it is a problem, and if you find such a church, you should avoid it like the plague.

As an Australian of Anglo-Celtic origins, Orthodoxy in Australia seems very based around ethnicity, there is no Orthodox Church of Australia, and it sounds like there probably never will be. Given the number of Greeks in Australia, they are by far the largest Orthodox group. I can appreciate that Orthodox churches are ornate, but they feel like entering an ethnic home (lots of what from my perspective is gawdy amounts of gold and purple).

Do AOC churches reflect mainly Amercian aesthetics or Eastern European?

Malleeboy said:

Do AOC churches reflect mainly Amercian aesthetics or Eastern European?

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it depends. it’s really a combo. we’re also still trying to figure out how to make Orthodoxy uniquely American. it’s a pretty diverse culture to baptize.

Malleeboy said:

As an Australian of Anglo-Celtic origins, Orthodoxy in Australia seems very based around ethnicity, there is no Orthodox Church of Australia, and it sounds like there probably never will be. Given the number of Greeks in Australia, they are by far the largest Orthodox group. I can appreciate that Orthodox churches are ornate, but they feel like entering an ethnic home (lots of what from my perspective is gawdy amounts of gold and purple).

Do AOC churches reflect mainly Amercian aesthetics or Eastern European?

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My personal experience in Australia, for what it's worth.
Our ROCOR parish is pretty non ethnocentric. Services are in English with the odd little bit in Russian, Greek or Arabic. Our priest is a former Anglican missionary.
We occasionally go to the convent for liturgy but it is all in Russian, including the sermon.
Our Greek parish is very Greek, but they are slowly including more and more English as they are aware that a lot of the next generation are not fluent in Greek, or don't speak it at all.

Thanks for your answers.

prodromos,

How/why did you pick ROCOR jurisdiction?
Did you have ethnic connection or was it a personal link?
In you town/city is their only two jurisdiction?

In Melbourne obviously there are many differing jurisdictions, and from what I understand non-ethnic people seem to choose a congregation based on the jurisdiction. That is similar to how protestants church shop. I'm mindful about CS Lewis talking about diocesan church attendance and that instead of choosing a church where he could mingle with people he liked, he was forced to mix/mingle with the people God had placed in vicinity with, rather than travelling to a chosen group. This he seems to think as a good, since it forced you to face your own prejudices, rather than choosing a church that aligns with you.

My son became orthodox at a ROCOR church but is a long way from our home, but it was largely due to friendship from Christian school he attended. From my external perception (ie non orthodox), there is an Antiochian outreach mission, which is much closer, all services in English, was much friendlier (this may be a cultural thing with the Russians) and I think he could benefit that congregation more with this attendance (they need some good singing voices and he inherited his mother's vocal skills not my awful ones)

Malleeboy said:

Thanks for your answers.

prodromos,

How/why did you pick ROCOR jurisdiction?
Did you have ethnic connection or was it a personal link?
In you town/city is their only two jurisdiction?

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We're pretty blessed around here. We've got a Romanian parish just around the corner (they bought the old Anglican Church my parents used to attend), we've got a Serbian parish not too far away and we've got multiple Greek parishes within a short drive.
The ROCOR parish is attached to a convent which we had learned about from a nun in Greece who grew up in Sydney, as her family used to often visit the convent. She was the same nun who directed us to the Greek parish in Mascot when we told her we were returning to Australia. We were concerned about finding a good spiritual father, and the priest there (now retired, widowed, and living in a monastery in Greece) was and is a living Saint. It was after his retirement that we needed to find another spiritual father, and the priestmonk at the ROCOR parish has filled that need wonderfully. The parish is also only 15min away from home.

Sounds like spiritual elder/father is the a significant driver in choice.
So would you attend any jurisdiction if you had to find a new spiritual father and that jurisdiction had one you liked?
I take they go where their bishop directs them?
Do you have an ethnic link to any current jurisdiction?

Malleeboy said:

Do you have an ethnic link to any current jurisdiction?

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Me personally, I'm a mutt. I've got a mix of Scottish, English and Swedish ancestry, however my wife is Greek from Macedonia (Greek, not Former Yugoslav Republic of), and when we got married we lived in Greece for a bit over 12 years. Greek is what I'm accustomed to, but our ROCOR parish is English with little bits of Russian, Greek and Arabic thrown in for good measure. Our priest and abbot of the monastery is a former Anglican missionary, our other priest is Indonesian. We recently had one of our congregation ordained as a deacon and then priest who is Greek as is one of our deacons. Our other deacon is Irish. We have people from Russia, Greece, Jordan, Libya, India, North Macedonia as well as a number of Aussies

Me too, having a several centuries, at least, linege as an orthodox christian am a mutt. If you, the best and most faitful of us, are a mutt - then grant me an honor of being one of you. A moment is a thousand years, and a millena is a moment, with our Lord. Grant me a moment with a best of yours, my God.