Eternal punishment vs eternal life

Der Alte said:

The second death is not appointed but some people earn it.
"Perish" ultimately means to cease to exist but is sometimes used to refer to simple death.
Not cease to exist Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Not cease to exist Mat_5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Not cease to exist Mat_8:25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

Not cease to exist Mat_9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Mat_18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.[Cease to exist]

Not cease to exist Mat_26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Not cease to exist Mar_4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

Not cease to exist Luk_5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Not cease to exist Luk_8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. [Cease to exist]

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. [Cease to exist]

Not cease to exist Luk_13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Not cease to exist Luk_15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

Not cease to exist Luk_21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Cease to exist Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Cease to exist Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Cease to exist Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Not cease to exist Joh_11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

Not cease to exist Act_8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Cease to exist Act_13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Cease to exist Rom_2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Cease to exist 1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Cease to exist 1Co_8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Cease to exist 2Co_2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Not cease to exist 2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Not cease to exist Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Cease to exist 2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Cease to exist Heb_1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Cease to exist 2Pe_2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

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Free2bHeretical4Him! said:

Nothing more than a bunch of texts, pulled out of their immediate context. Then imposed with your personal idea of what perish means. Your use of this amalgamation of Scripture is more along the lines of “She loves me. She loves me not.“ What? This maybe took you all of 10 minutes from the time you read my reply to now? You know, for someone with your stated credentials, this is a display of haphazard interpretation. Highlighted by your lack of effort and carelessness in handling the sacred Scripture. I expect much better from you.

blessings

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JulieB67 said:

Do you really think they have a choice when Christ returns in his glory? Everyone will know at that point. They will have no choice. Of course every knee will bow to the glory of our Father. As I stated before it doesn't mean they will stay that way. Many will still follow Satan in the end and right into the Lake of Fire.

These verses are not about the Lake of Fire

Malachi 3:2 "But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:"

Malachi 3:3 "And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."

If we go ahead one chapter we will know exactly what will happen to those who do not overcome

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

That's what a fire does.

Isaiah 48:10 "Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction."

There is nothing about the Lake of Fire (which was prepared for the devil and his angels) in these verses.


All will have a chance to be saved but it does not ultimately mean all are saved. You leave out verses about our Father's long suffering because he would ultimately wants everyone to come to repentance so they won't perish. Everyone bowing a knee when Christ returns is not that. Repentance is a change of heart and mind. A new way of thinking. That is an important key when it comes to salvation. And you are placing the Lake of Fire into Christ's position of Savior. And that's not what the Word states at all. It's his holy Spirit that refines, etc. To call the Lake of Fire anything close to that is such a dangerous thought.


Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He That cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire:"

We go to the next verse and we can see what happens to the others


Matthew 3:12 "Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

That goes back to Malachi 4



No, you get an idea how our Father and the Holy Spirit works in our lifetimes. He is the refiner.

We know what the Lake of Fire is for, Christ specifically tells us what it's for. He does not leave us wanting in that aspect. We don't have to piece together anything about it. He could not be more clear. You are confusing the power and workings of the Holy Spirit with the Lake of Fire.


Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

We can't throw out the importance of who's in the book of "life" You imply it doesn't matter because all will have life.



Scripture? Again, I deal in that, not man's Word. And we are talking about the Lake of Fire, not the Holy Spirit and our Father who himself refines. The Lake of Fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. No where in scripture does it state it was a medicine for them. It states they will be turned to ashes. That's why I stated I had to get into the Word when I was fed false doctrines which were not in there. We can't put our trust into man's word. Many will lead us down the wrong path.


That's symbolic of what one goes through in a lifetime. It's not the Lake of Fire.


So you believe God will torture sinners in hell after all. I don't believe that. I believe they will simply be blotted out, consumed. That's what a fire does and that's what scripture states what will ultimately happen to them. If they don't want God and still want to follow Satan that's what's going to happen. He will let that happen. Perish or live, it's all there stated. He will not torture anyone into submission. That's not true love on either part. And that's not true repentance on our part. God is preparing a place for those that love him. Not all will. But that is why he's so long suffering because he does want people to come to repentance. If what you believe is true that verse makes no sense.

Well, those ideas don't come from the Word of God. Are we ultimately going to believe Christ when he states it's the second death and tells us that body and soul will be destroyed (fully) or are we going to believe man? I guess that's the true question. And we to study to show ourselves approved. We don't need man to put an idea into our heads when we can directly to the Word. I choose to follow Christ's teachings on the subject. Again, he does not leave us wanting or trying to figure it out, he states more than once what the Lake of Fire is.


Christ tells us to fear the one that can kill both body and soul (fully in the Greek) in hell. Which goes along with the Malachi verses in 4. They will burn up. There will be nothing left. We have two bodies and Christ is telling us that both bodies will die. The first is physical, the second is spiritual. Christ calls it the Second Death. Again, why would he call it that, if he did not mean death? It seems as if you're grasping when Christ's teaching is so simple. You're seeking out man's word and will believe them instead of Christ's teachings on the subject. Death means just that. Common sense alone tells us that if our bodies and souls -our very being is put to death than the spirit, that breath of life God has given us is also put to death. Malachi is very clear that all will be turned ashes, rubble, neither root or branch. Even the memory of the former things will be passed away nor come to mind. That includes the Lake of Fire since it will be a former thing.

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Free2bHeretical4Him! said:

The opposite of eternal life is cease to exist. So, everyone who believes in the Son has eternal life. All who do not believe in the son, and thus have no eternal life, cease to exist? Do I have this correct? I assume then you believe after the judgement is rendered, all unbelievers are cast into the Lake of fire and brimstone where they cease to exist and are remembered no more?

Kudos to you my friend … Your heart is informing you that the concept of ECP is a horrific lie from Satan, to pour contempt on the character of God‘s NAME. Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you my brother but rather our Father who inhabits the praise of His people. God speed on your new journey …

blessings

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Der Alte said:

Twisting my words. Adios.

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Jeff Saunders said:

it’s not a forceful confession.

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Jeff Saunders said:

I have had the chance to smuggle Bibles into communist countries

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Jeff Saunders said:

You say all have a chance to be saved, I beg to differ on that , I have had the chance to smuggle Bibles into communist countries and many have never even seen a Bible and most have not heard,

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Jeff Saunders said:

, do you not sit in a pew every Sunday and listen to the preacher talk and give his opinion or someone else’s opinions of what scripture teaches, or do you go to a church that only reads scripture and no talking except reading scripture? I think not.

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Jeff Saunders said:

As far as Annihilation which you believe, it’s not what you think. The wine old wine skins that would burst if new wine was put in them is said to be destroyed, same Greek word, is not no longer around, it’s just not useful anymore for what it was made for. Same for those who do not follow Jesus in this age. They were made for glory but they are destroyed just like the old wine skins, they will not be able to be used for what they could have been but not snuffed out. I was listening to a guy from the Middle East and he was talking about how we in the west don’t understand eastern mindset. He talked about how in the east they use exaggerated language to express ideas that they would never take literally. He said if he was mad at someone and said he would destroy them , no one would think that they were saying that they were going to take them out of existence.

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JulieB67 said:

At that point, every knee will bow, they will have no choice. They will know who he is. And they will bow to the "glory of God". It will give God the pleasure and glory. But it doesn't mean all will stay there. Satan will still draw many away. That's the nature of some. Just as Christ taught in the gospels about some receiving the word with joy, etc but then other things, worldly, riches etc pull them away. Again apostasy is still a real thing.



I commend you on that, that's remarkable.


Well, I believe( though others don't) in the 1000 years. (another topic altogether) God is fair, by the time the great white throne happens, everyone will have had a chance to choose our Father/Christ and the way of Satan. That's what the Lake of Fire was prepared for -the devil and his angels. Satan himself is prophesized as ultimately being turned to ashes from within. And anyone not found in the book of life will follow that same fate. It's written so that's what I believe.


I do not sit in a pew at all. I left the church over 20 years ago when I found out I was being fed false doctrines.

I've posted this many times on numerous threads -one could spend a lifetime in a pew in a so called "church" and come away only being fed milk. One goes to church, sits for an hour or so and listens to a few verses surrounded by a personal sermon written by a man that has nothing to do with God's Word, his overall plan, the beginning, the end, so on.

We need to approach the Word of God chapter by chapter and verse by verse rightly dividing the Word. If I can spend a lifetime doing that, I would be better off than going and sitting in a pew. Certain tools are needed of course because much can get lost in translation but you are better off on your own or with a few people in many cases if your church isn't giving you the meat, reading chapter by chapter and verse by verse. We need God's word, not mans. It's good to have certain teachers but if you have not moved past the milk and into the meat, they are not providing for you. That's my belief. I've learned more about God's Word in the last 20 years outside of a church than I ever did sitting in a pew.


I think we should take Christ's teachings and warnings a lot more serious than that. I don't think he's exaggerating when when he calls the Lake of Fire the second death and I don't believe we should take his warning lightly about fearing the one that can kill both body and soul in hell. Christ is very clear about what's going to happen. This isn't just someone telling someone that they "will destroy them over something and not meaning it". Our Father is not the author of confusion.

The warnings to the churches that fell into apostasy should also be taken seriously. He told them to repent or they were in danger of having their names blotted out of the book of life. Christ/the Word does not deal in lip service. There's no exaggerations to his warnings at all.

And after all those warnings would be the perfect time to fit in your beliefs if they were true. Why doesn't Christ tell them that the Lake of Fire is a refinery and if they don't repent or make it just wait until then and then you will ultimately make it regardless? Where are those verses? That's my thing. I can't believe something when Christ tells me something different. If he gives warnings I take those very seriously. And I don't see that the Lake of Fire is a refinery. Far from it. Every verse about God refining people is just that. And it's in people's lifetimes. It's not at the great white throne. There's nothing that states anyone comes out of the LOF.

Again, it's good to have teachers but we have to seek out the Word to see if what they are teaching is truth You talk about the early churches. In the early days Paul states that men would come in with different gospels, etc and he put warnings out about them. But when he for example taught, certain people searched the scriptures to see if what he taught was truth. That's how we go about it today. And yes, some translations are tricky, etc but there are tools to help with that.

I don't think we're going to change one another's minds. I like to think I have an open one. It's why I had to seek out the Word to see if the false doctrines I was brought up with were true. They were not. And it's much harder to "unlearn" something than to learn something new. Especially if one is so indoctrinated. But I went in only wanting to truth. I dropped those false doctrines in the process.

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Free2bHeretical4Him! said:

Very well … I hoped it was what you meant but had my doubts. I honestly have no idea how to interpret what “you mean by cease to exist”, its application for/against eternal life, and how it applies to your view of ECP. Previous post deleted as I have obviously errored in my judgement. Feel free to delete yours …

If you no longer wish to engage in discussion with me, or only on this subject matter, that is fine. You view us as competitors, a comment you have never qualified, I do not as stated earlier. If you wish to have a meaningful, give and take respectful exchange then please start addressing my questions. Provide definitions when needed for clarification.

I love you my friend, not just words on a page, but a genuine expression of my heart.

blessings,

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Jeff Saunders said:

* * * When you read the passage in Phil 2:10-11 in Greek , it’s not a forceful confession. The Greek word is Exomologeo the definition is - to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give without reservations. That’s not a forced confession. * * *

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Jeff Saunders said:

if I really believe that if I get the God thing wrong he was going to burn me forever

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Jeff Saunders said:

and this process of about 6000 years

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Jeff Saunders said:

Why would God create something that he would have to torture forever or annihilate after he created it?

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Der Alte said:

"Might be saved" NOT "will be saved."

Even the translation which you think supports UR does NOT. ""might not perish" NOT "will not perish." "might be saved" NOT "will be saved." Now let me quote from the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible their language has been Greek since Jesus founded the church.

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Der Alte said:

For those who have not seen or choose not to see here is the definition of exomologeo from BDAG one of if not, the most highly acclaimed lexicon of Biblical Greek. It represents approx 120-160 years of combined scholarship. This definition alone cites approx. 50 ancient sources translators consulted to determine the correct definition. The words "joyfully, to celebrate, to give without reservations." do NOT appear in this definition.

ἐξομολογέω (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III b.c.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 b.c.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).​

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① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).​

② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 a.d.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei Peccati II ’35.​

③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.​

④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.[1]​

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[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 351.​

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JulieB67 said:

Again, I don't believe anyone is going to burn forever.

You are right about the different lens, even this one. I believe in a much older earth and that also plays into a lot of what I believe about the Word, God's overall plan for us, and so on.


As I've stated above my believing that the earth is much older than 6000 years plays into all of my beliefs about his creation, Satan's overthrow and what I believe about God's overall plan. It's kind of getting off the subject of this thread but it's been a deeper study for me for years. Because if we don't understand the beginning we'll never understand the end. And I'm still trying to learn and grow every day in the Word. I will say taking things back to the Hebrew, even in Genesis 1:2 tells me the earth is much older than 6000 years. Not everyone believes that but it makes perfect sense to me.

I'll let this thread get back on topic....

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hedrick said:

Ugh. "Might" is subjunctive. I did X so that Y might happen means that if X, Y will happen. Assuming the condition is true, "might" does mean "will."

You can't deal with 3:17 the way you seem to be dealing with it. However the whole context is salvation for those with faith. So I agree that 3:17 can't mean universal salvation. How do we deal with that? The simplest approach is to assume that this is rhetoric, not symbolic logic. Taken very literally, outside of any context, if God sent Christ to save the world, and we assume that what God wants happens, the world is saved, which I'd say means everyone. But when put in the middle of that context, since that context is about salvation of believers, and actually mentions condemnation of others, I think we have to read this less than literally. It says that Christ was intended for salvation, not condemnation, but not that he saves everyone. I've tried to produce a literal interpretation, and it's hard. Either God's desire isn't quite a final decision that it will happen, or "world" is not meant literally as everyone. But this is analyzing the language in a lot more detail than John likely meant it.

Incidentally, this passage (and in fact all of John) doesn't say what happens to those who don't believe. 3:36 talks about God's wrath. But for all we know they could ultimately all be converted. John certainly doesn't say so.

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hedrick said:

Ugh. "Might" is subjunctive. I did X so that Y might happen means that if X, Y will happen. Assuming the condition is true, "might" does mean "will."

You can't deal with 3:17 the way you seem to be dealing with it. However the whole context is salvation for those with faith. So I agree that 3:17 can't mean universal salvation. How do we deal with that? The simplest approach is to assume that this is rhetoric, not symbolic logic. Taken very literally, outside of any context, if God sent Christ to save the world, and we assume that what God wants happens, the world is saved, which I'd say means everyone. But when put in the middle of that context, since that context is about salvation of believers, and actually mentions condemnation of others, I think we have to read this less than literally. It says that Christ was intended for salvation, not condemnation, but not that he saves everyone. I've tried to produce a literal interpretation, and it's hard. Either God's desire isn't quite a final decision that it will happen, or "world" is not meant literally as everyone. But this is analyzing the language in a lot more detail than John likely meant it.

Incidentally, this passage (and in fact all of John) doesn't say what happens to those who don't believe. 3:36 talks about God's wrath. But for all we know they could ultimately all be converted. John certainly doesn't say so.

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John 3:15-19
This is from a writing of A.P Adams:
“Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be. In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version. The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one. The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally. But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all, believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds! "Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).”

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Free2bHeretical4Him! said:

Hi Hedrick,
appreciate your input and sharing your thoughts in this thread. No Greek scholar here, just do the best I can with the tools available to me and the brain provided me by my Creator. Would enjoy reading your thoughts on the following excerpt from A.P.Adams:

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Jeff Saunders said:

The key to this is , can a person accept Gods offer of salvation after the mortal body is dead. If no then not all will be saved and Jesus fails I. His mission. If yes then God has all the time of forever to win them over, why do so many people think that God stops perusing people just because their temporary mortal body dies, no place in scripture is this taught. And I would say we have example’s of just the opposite. Why else would Jesus go to the underworld and preach to those who were dead?

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Free2bHeretical4Him! said:

* * * Pretty crazy …
Der Alte: Hey everyone. Here is my study proving Aionios means eternal.
Me: Cool! I have a couple questions.
Der Alte: My study is simple enough that even a child can understand. Request denied.
Me: Huh? You won’t answer a couple questions for me?
Der Alte: No. My works speaks for itself. Not my problem if you lack understanding. Just believe me. I speak 5 languages. Have a Masters of divinity from the most prestigious school in (????). Have a boatload of bible tools, but only the ones that are correct, have value and authoritative.
Me: Ok. Got it. Not interested anymore …* * *

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Der Alte said:

Your source A.P. Adams is in error.

"The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one. The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him."​

​

John 3:16​

(16) ουτωςG3779 ADV γαρG1063 CONJ ηγαπησενG25 V-AAI-3S οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM τονG3588 T-ASM κοσμονG2889 N-ASM ωστεG5620 CONJ τονG3588 T-ASM υιονG5207 N-ASM τονG3588 T-ASM μονογενηG3439 A-ASM εδωκενG1325 V-AAI-3S ιναG2443 CONJ παςG3956 A-NSM οG3588 T-NSM πιστευωνG4100 V-PAP-NSM ειςG1519 PREP αυτονG846 P-ASM μηG3361 PRT-N αποληταιG622 V-2AMS-3S αλλG235 CONJ εχηG2192 V-PAS-3S ζωηνG2222 N-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF​

The word pisteuon/believing is a verb, present active participle. It does NOT say "all will believe in Him" "present active participle" means those presently actively believing in him. Read the next 2 vss.

John 3:17-18​

(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

(18) He that believeth [V-PAP-NSM] on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed [V-PAP-NSM] in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

In vs. 18 "not believing" has the same force as "believing" vs. 16.

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Free2bHeretical4Him! said:

* * * Pretty crazy …
Der Alte: Hey everyone. Here is my study proving Aionios means eternal.
Me: Cool! I have a couple questions.
Der Alte: My study is simple enough that even a child can understand. Request denied.
Me: Huh? You won’t answer a couple questions for me?
Der Alte: No. My works speaks for itself. Not my problem if you lack understanding. Just believe me. I speak 5 languages. Have a Masters of divinity from the most prestigious school in (????). Have a boatload of bible tools, but only the ones that are correct, have value and authoritative.
Me: Ok. Got it. Not interested anymore …* * *

Click to expand...