Paul vs Christ?

DamianWarS · Feb 21, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Many people use Col 2:14-17 as an argument against keeping God's Sabbath commandment but did Paul really contradict every thus saith the Lord in scripture, the very teachings of Jesus Christ who Paul proclaims he was a servant to.

There is no Paul vs Christ crisis. It is Christ through Paul, he says it himself quite explicitly in Gal 1:11-12

The thing with quoting 2 Peter 3:16 is that you fall under the same measure. So why is it that your interpretation of Col 2:14-17 is right but someone else's is too confused to understand Paul? Maybe you got that one backwards?

By quoting 2 Peter 3:16 you are in practice saying no one can use the writings of Paul because Peter said they are too hard to understand. This would include you as well as you fall under the same suspicion. That's close to a quarter of the new testament by the way and it means you can't quote Col 2:14-17 to try and explain it or any Pauline writings because you might be too confused to understand it.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 21, 2025

DamianWarS said:
There is no Paul vs Christ crisis. It is Christ through Paul, he says it himself quite explicitly in Gal 1:11-12

The thing with quoting 2 Peter 3:16 is that you fall under the same measure. So why is it that your interpretation of Col 2:14-17 is right but someone else's is too confused to understand Paul? Maybe you got that one backwards?

By quoting 2 Peter 3:16 you are in practice saying no one can use the writings of Paul because Peter said they are too hard to understand. This would include you as well as you fall under the same suspicion. That's close to a quarter of the new testament by the way and it means you can't quote Col 2:14-17 to try and explain it or any Pauline writings because you might be too confused to understand it.

Again, I do no interpret Paul to contradict every thus saith the Lord in scripture on His Sabbath commandment. If you think that he does, that's a choice one can make. It contradicts the very teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, not Paul. When did Jesus ever abrogate the Sabbath commandment, not once, He kept and taught to keep. In interpreting Paul went against Christ is pitting them against each other when Paul said he was a servant of Christ and follower. There is no harm in keeping the Sabbath, Christ says one is blessed Isa 56:6 and Christ is Lord of Mark 2:28, so not twisting to my own destruction but Jesus in His own words will say at His Second Coming, depart from Me, ye who practice lawlessness Mat 7:23 The Sabbath is part of God's law and will Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 thus saith the Lord.

Clare73 · Feb 21, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Again, I do no interpret Paul to contradict every thus saith the Lord in scripture on His Sabbath commandment. If you think that he does, that's a choice one can make. It contradicts the very teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, not Paul.

When you hear Paul, you hear Jesus (Lk 10:16).
Paul received his teaching from heaven (2 Co 12:1-7) just as Jesus did (Jn 3:13).

SabbathBlessings · Feb 21, 2025

Clare73 said:
When you hear Paul, you hear Jesus (Lk 10:16).
Paul received his teaching from heaven (2 Co 12:1-7) just as Jesus did (Jn 3:13).

Agreed. Why we can’t interpret Paul to reject and contradict every thus saith the Lord, that's not hearing God, but another spirit. That would put Paul above Christ and not a servant to Him which he said he was. Rom 1:1., Paul taught we out to obey Christ over man, which is what Paul is versus Jesus is our Creator and Savior. Paul's writings is not the issue, its the way they are being interpreted hence why there is even a warning about this very thing. I would think contradicting every thus saith the Lord would warrant as such for someone who claims to be a servant and follower of Christ.

Clare73 · Feb 21, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Agreed. Why we can’t interpret Paul to reject and contradict every thus saith the Lord. That would put Paul above Christ and not a servant to Him which he said he was. Rom 1:1

Paul does not contradict Jesus anymore than the NT contradicts the OT.
Paul presents the fulfillment of Jesus teachings in light of the cross, just as the NT presents the fulfillment of the OT in the light of the cross.

Your dichotomy is false.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 21, 2025

Clare73 said:
Paul does not contradict Jesus anymore than the NT contradicts the OT.
Paul presents the fulfillment of Jesus teachings in light of the cross, just as the NT presents the fulfillment of the OT in the light of the cross.

Your dichotomy is false.

No Paul does not contradict Jesus such as Deut 4:2 Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 Mat 24:20 Isa 66:23 John 14:15 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19 nor did Paul put himself in a position to be above the teachings of Jesus Christ, nor should we.

Anyone teaching against this is what is false Isa 8:20 so personal opinions do not mean much to me as we were told Mat 24:4-5. All gets sorted out soon enough

Leaf473 · Feb 21, 2025

Jesus also said things that are hard to grasp

Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying! Who can listen to it?” John 6:60

I think apparent differences between what Jesus said in his personal body versus what he said through Paul are mostly resolved by understanding that they taught under different covenants †

DamianWarS · Feb 21, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Again, I do no interpret Paul to contradict every thus saith the Lord in scripture on His Sabbath commandment. If you think that he does, that's a choice one can make. It contradicts the very teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, not Paul. When did Jesus ever abrogate the Sabbath commandment, not once, He kept and taught to keep. In interpreting Paul went against Christ is pitting them against each other when Paul said he was a servant of Christ and follower. There is no harm in keeping the Sabbath, Christ says one is blessed Isa 56:6 and Christ is Lord of Mark 2:28, so not twisting to my own destruction but Jesus in His own words will say at His Second Coming, depart from Me, ye who practice lawlessness Mat 7:23 The Sabbath is part of God's law and will Psa 40:8 Heb 8:10 thus saith the Lord.

In 2 Peter 3:16 Peter says Paul is too hard to understand "which the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, as they also do the rest of the scriptures". Thus you cannot make any claim on Paul without being culpable yourself.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 21, 2025

DamianWarS said:
In 2 Peter 3:16 Peter says Paul is too hard to understand "which the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, as they also do the rest of the scriptures". Thus you cannot make any claim on Paul without being culpable yourself.

It doesn’t say everyone and it says they twist to their own destruction, so I don’t believe we can apply this to keeping the Sabbath commandment ordained personally by God as if there is anyone greater. God said we are blessed when we keep His Sabbath commandment Isa 56:6 and its a delight Isa 58:13-14 not the defintion of destruction, but the opposite of blessed is. Deut 11:26-28 Mat 7:21-23. Choose God’s blessing! The invitation is to all, all are called, but sadly few are chosen because few respond to His call and wish to stay in darkness. Heb 3:7-8. John 3:19-21. No one will convince me that Paul contradicted every thus saith the Lord and the instruction of Jesus and was trying to get people to rebel against one of God’s commandments. This fits the definition of the warning perfectly as the consequences for disobedience to God and His commandments is steep as it shows a lack of faith and belief Rom 6:23 Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 1 John 2:4 Heb 10:26-30

DamianWarS · Feb 21, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
It doesn’t say everyone

But how can we be sure it's not you? Quoting 2 Peter 3:16 like this inheritly questions any interpretation of Paul including your own. If all you can do is quote 2 Peter 3:16 when someone disagrees with you then it can be quoted right back at you for the same reasons.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 21, 2025

DamianWarS said:
But how can we be sure it's not you?

I just explained, there is no destruction to keeping the Sabbath commandment - just God’s blessing. Isa 56:2 Rev 22:14. What God blesses, no man can reverse Num 23:20

DamianWarS · Feb 21, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
I just explained, there is no destruction to keeping the Sabbath commandment - just God’s blessing. Isa 56:2 Rev 22:14. What God blesses, no man can reverse Num 23:20

But by doing this you've interpreted Paul, specifically Col 2:14-17 thus come under the 2 Peter 3:16 clause which you've identified yourself in the OP creating a double standard or special pleading fallacy. It is not a supporting argument either, interpreting Paul is the main premise of the OP.

You cannot be exempt by the same measure you put on other people. If I am suspected of corruption because Paul is too hard to understand using 2 Peter 3:16 as your source, then you are also suspected of corruption for the same reasons. If this is your continued point then all the OP can say is we cannot interpret Paul for any reason. So go through all your posts and remove any reference to Paul's writtings because according to Peter, he's too hard to understand.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 22, 2025

DamianWarS said:
But by doing this you've interpreted Paul, specifically Col 2:14-17 thus come under the 2 Peter 3:16 clause which you've identified yourself in the OP creating a double standard or special pleading fallacy. It is not a supporting argument either, interpreting Paul is the main premise of the OP.

You cannot be exempt by the same measure you put on other people. If I am suspected of corruption because Paul is too hard to understand using 2 Peter 3:16 as your source, then you are also suspected of corruption for the same reasons. If this is your continued point then all the OP can say is we cannot interpret Paul for any reason. So go through all your posts and remove any reference to Paul's writtings because according to Peter, he's too hard to understand.

You don't seem to be following

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

There is no destruction of keeping the Sabbath commandment only blessings Isa 56:2 Eze 20:12 Eze 20:20 Rev 22:14 Isa 66:23

There is destruction thus saith the Lord for not keeping the Sabbath Exo 31:14, Eze 20:13 Eze 20:21 Jer 17:27 Isa 66:17 Rev 22:15 Eze 22:26

So one cannot interpret 2 Peter 3:16 Col 2:14-17 as Paul telling us not to keep the Sabbath because there is destruction for disobeying God's commandments as the verse says and the consequence of sinning as shown in the scriptures all are thus saith the Lord. Col 2:14-17 is not about God's finger-written commandments that are holy and blessed by God but Moses handwritten ordinances that were contrary and against placed besides God's Ten Commandments Deut 31:24-26 which came after the fall of man and includes the yearly sabbaths ordinances that had to do with food and drink offerings the context of this passage.

John G. · Feb 22, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
there is no destruction to keeping the Sabbath commandment

Nor is there any in observing the Lord's day or viewing all days the same. (Romans 14:5)
It is irrelevant as far as salvation goes for salvation is by grace.
On the other hand, if someone thinks it is required for salvation, he is outside God's grace as he has placed himself under the law.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 22, 2025

John G. said:
Nor is there any in observing the Lord's day or viewing all days the same. (Romans 14:5)
It is irrelevant as far as salvation goes for salvation is by grace.
On the other hand, if someone thinks it is required for salvation, he is outside God's grace as he has placed himself under the law.

Rom 14 is about mans opinions, not what God esteems over all other days, the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10 the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13 thus saith the Lord that God commanded us to keep holy Exo 20:8 thus saith the Lord.

Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.

They were not arguing over if they should keep or not keep God's commandments, but days they deemed holy and an equivalent would be like us discussing if we should keep Christmas or Easter not if we should obey or disobey God's commandments.

We should keep no law to be saved, they only point out sin Rom 7:7 so we are not depending on our righteousness but on Christs Psa 119:172, the commandments are kept as a consequence of salvation not a means to it Rev 14:12 and want to obey God because of love John 14:15 Exo 20:6 1 John 5:3

Leaf473 · Feb 22, 2025

Properly observing the Sabbath means paying attention to the elemental things of this world

sunsets, the rotation of the Earth
the international date line

Leaf473 · Feb 22, 2025

The destruction Peter speaks of refers to the destruction of the person doing the interpreting of Paul

It can apply to anyone

JesusFollowerForever · Feb 22, 2025

Jesus vs Paul, who will win at the end? This debate is really heating up.

Peace brothers and sisters in Christ.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 22, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
Jesus vs Paul, who will win at the end? This debate is really heating up.

Peace brothers and sisters in Christ.

Even Paul is on the side of obeying God

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Rom 2:21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?

Leaf473 · Feb 22, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
Jesus vs Paul, who will win at the end? This debate is really heating up.

Peace brothers and sisters in Christ.

As an apostle, what Paul said is what Jesus said is what Jesus said

Paul vs Christ?

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