• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

On the Communion Service, Lord's Supper

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,608
9,479
51
The Wild West
✟946,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
No, your church uses that word Priest for presbyter. The Bible uses the word Priest a different way.

In the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic text the Bible doesn’t use the word Priest at all. It uses the words Hierus, Sacerdos and Kohanim. My issue is with the English translations causing confusion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Propitiated
Upvote 0

soldier of light

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2025
1,996
637
52
Canton
✟14,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I am glad you love Jesus Christ our Lord. It has not been my desire to upset you in any way; I was merely seeking to provide you with links to scriptural texts that are relevant to Holy Communion, as an act of Christian charity and fellowship, for the purpose of assisting you in doing it. Because as I see it, if you feel called to celebrate Holy Communion, I should provide what information I have about the Bible verses that are relevant to it, so that you have the option of looking at those verses.
I have anxiety. This topic is a trigger it seems
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

soldier of light

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2025
1,996
637
52
Canton
✟14,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
In the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic text the Bible doesn’t use the word Priest at all. It uses the words Hierus, Sacerdos and Kohanim. My issue is with the English translations causing confusion.
Jesus is high priest. Not high elder but high priest. I'm a priest under Jesus. Not an elder but a priest. Is this not what scripture teaches?
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,608
9,479
51
The Wild West
✟946,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Btw, I do understand that you research history quite a lot, but posting a lot of material to me on what this traditional church does or what this institution does is not going to somehow incite an interest in me to start attending some traditionalist church.

I can promise you quite solemnly I am not posting material on traditional churches with the idea of causing you to convert. I am not interested in the denomination you attend; my church is overflowing with converts, and I recognize you as a fellow Christian.

I am generally opposed to converting people between Christian denominations, since we are all Christians. I think our attention should be focused on converting Mormons and J/Ws and atheists and Muslims and other people outside of the Christian Church into Christianity, rather than trying to engage in what is sometimes called “sheep stealing.”

Furthermore trying to convert other members of the forum to one’s own denomination is frowned upon if I understand the rules correctly. Finally, it is almost impossible to persuade someone to join a particular denomination through debating, and I am opposed to people who even attempt to do that.

Indeed if I really wanted to convert someone to Orthodoxy I would probably take them to Vespers or All Night Vigils, since that’s what converted me, and also historically converted Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, around 1950, when he was 17, and several other people, and obviously since I can’t do that over an Internet forum no one here needs to worry about that. But there is no brainwashing that happens at our Vespers and I suspect Anglican Evensong has a similar effect (I always have thoroughly enjoyed it). Indeed I think more denominations should investigate using evening services that have a subtle quality since they tend to attract new people to churches.

Rather the reason why I post information on traditional churches is to provide historical and contextual information, just as my friends from less traditional churches post information pertinent to their churches. The reason why I am on ChristianForums is for mutual edification.

For example, my friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @Ain't Zwinglian are Evangelical Catholic Lutherans. I think it highly unlikely, and also unnecessary, for them to join the specific denomination I am associated with at the moment (and I have actually multiple denominational affiliations, but since i joined the Orthodox Church in 2014 I have usually been associated with the Orthodox Church in America, or the Antiochian Orthodox Church, or ROCOR, but I also have a high opinion of the Oriental Orthodox churches and regard them as being equivalent in faith, and also some of the Continuing Anglican churches are so close to our Western Rite Orthodox communities in faith as to be functionally Orthodox, but also it has become apparent to me that Evangelical Catholic Lutheranism of the Augsburg Confession, also called Lutheran Orthodoxy, is really very close to my church.

There are minor differences, but I have no desire to convert my Lutheran friends and would not attempt to do so. Rather I learn from them, and we exchange knowledge, and we enjoy our fellowship, despite the fact that we disagree over a few issues like the intercession of the saints, certain aspects of how the Holy Communion liturgy should be celebrated, and the issue of monergism (in theory), and also with regards to the Eucharist whether or not the Body and Blood are in, with and under the species of bread and wine as Lutherans believe or whether it is a mystery, which is the Orthodox view.

There are other members whose theology is more removed from mine who I still am very good friends with. For example, @chevyontheriver and @Michie are devout Roman Catholics. My views on the privileges of the Bishop of Rome are unlikely to change, and I don’t desire to convert them into Orthodoxy, and I don’t intend to accept the doctrine that the Bishop of Rome is doctrinally infallible or has supreme authority over all other bishops. But I love these Roman Catholic members and enjoy fellowship with.

Likewise my Episcopalian friends @PloverWing and @seeking.IAM are members of the Episcopal Church who probably do not agree with my opinion of some controversial doctrinal decisions made by the Episcopal Church in the interests of inclusion in the past few decades, however, I have been an Episcopalian in the past and greatly love the Episcopal Church and I greatly enjoy their fellowship.

Likewise, I have as a second cousin a retired Pentecostal minister who I love greatly, who is the son in law of my beloved great uncle who was a missionary for one of the mainline US churches and a Holy Confessor, who was tortured by a fascist European regime in the late 1950s for providing humanitarian aid to Christians among the rural population of an African country that at the time was ruled by that country (until it secured independence two decades later and then suffered through a period of equally destructive Communist rule. His daughter, my second cousin, with his blessing, married a Pentecostal minister who mentored me and who I greatly respect and admire. So I have no opposition to the AOG or other Pentecostal churches (except for the snake-handling churches in Appalachia, because of the frequency with which their members get injured as a result of being bit by a snake, and because I don’t see any positive commandment in Mark 16:9-20 to handle those snakes, and there is also some question as to whether or not Mark 16:9-20 is authentic, although my church believes that it is and reads it every eleventh Sunday morning as one of the eleven Resurrection Gospels read at Matins on most Sundays throughout the year)- indeed, I am not a cessationist, although the experiences I have had of the charisms are different from those which are typically associated with the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.

So unless, and correct me if I’m wrong, the Assemblies of God are not associated with the snake-handling Pentecostal churches of Appalachia, which if I recall are only loosely organized, I can’t remember if they constitute anything like an organized denomination or are more of a fellowship, but aside from that particular case, I really have no objection to your denomination, and furthermore I appreciate that your denomination has maintained traditional Christian doctrine concerning important issues like abortion and human sexuality.

It is my hope this post will help you understand where I am coming from at least, and perhaps you might even be able to enjoy my posts given the reassurance that I am not trying to induce you to join the Orthodox Church through argumentation (which is literally impossible), but rather am seeking to provide historical and contextual information that members can interact with on their own level. But in summary, I am not trying to convert you or anyone else, because I disagree with the practice, because you can’t argue someone to join your faith, because its against the rules, and finally, if I did want to convert someone I would need to be able to meet them and actually take them to a specific church service in the evening, which has logistical constraints which on a forum where I prefer to maintain a certain anonymity is entirely impossible, but I would not use this on other Christians, since I think we should be focused on converting the people who are not Christian and who are in some cases trying to kill us ( such as Islamic fundamentalists, Hindu nationalists, Communists and other militant atheists, and so on ).
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,608
9,479
51
The Wild West
✟946,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I have anxiety. This topic is a trigger it seems

God bless you. I will pray for you. Remember God is Love. I myself also experience anxiety and I beg your forgiveness if I triggered you, in any way.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,608
9,479
51
The Wild West
✟946,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Jesus is high priest. Not high elder but high priest. I'm a priest under Jesus. Not an elder but a priest. Is this not what scripture teaches?

That’s entirely correct, completely so. Jesus Christ is a high priest and you are a priest, forever, in the manner of Melchizedek. My posts pertained only to the choice of words used in translating the original Greek text of the New Testament and how it caused confusion.
 
Upvote 0

soldier of light

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2025
1,996
637
52
Canton
✟14,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God bless you. I will pray for you. Remember God is Love. I myself also experience anxiety and I beg your forgiveness if I triggered you, in any way.
It's ok
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,352
886
Oregon
✟207,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There are minor differences, but I have no desire to convert my Lutheran friends and would not attempt to do so. Rather I learn from them, and we exchange knowledge, and we enjoy our fellowship, despite the fact that we disagree over a few issues like the intercession of the saints, certain aspects of how the Holy Communion liturgy should be celebrated, and the issue of monergism (in theory), and also with regards to the Eucharist whether or not the Body and Blood are in, with and under the species of bread and wine as Lutherans believe or whether it is a mystery, which is the Orthodox view.
Amen and Amen. And the same eloquence to you.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,608
9,479
51
The Wild West
✟946,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Amen and Amen. And the same eloquence to you.

By the way my beloved friend I was hoping you might provide some additional commentary for us from a Lutheran Christological and Sacramental perspective on the centrality of the Resurrection to the Eucharistic memorial of the Triumphant Passion of Christ our God on the Holy and Life Giving Cross as the embodiment of the Gospel in the Gottesdienst for the edification of the members and in response to the OP.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,702
2,107
61
✟252,320.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
I am not interested in the denomination you attend;



So I have no opposition to the AOG or other Pentecostal churches (except for the snake-handling churches in Appalachia, because of the frequency with which their members get injured as a result of being bit by a snake, and because I don’t see any positive commandment in Mark 16:9-20 to handle those snakes, and there is also some question as to whether or not Mark 16:9-20 is authentic, although my church believes that it is and reads it every eleventh Sunday morning as one of the eleven Resurrection Gospels read at Matins on most Sundays throughout the year)- indeed, I am not a cessationist, although the experiences I have had of the charisms are different from those which are typically associated with the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.

So unless, and correct me if I’m wrong, the Assemblies of God are not associated with the snake-handling Pentecostal churches of Appalachia, which if I recall are only loosely organized, I can’t remember if they constitute anything like an organized denomination or are more of a fellowship, but aside from that particular case, I really have no objection to your denomination, and furthermore I appreciate that your denomination has maintained traditional Christian doctrine concerning important issues like abortion and human sexuality.

I think you should be somewhat interested in my denomination so you can learn to stop spreading false information about us. You're a history buff on everything else it seems.


There's a difference in the term Pentecostal. There are some, like myself, who are triune believing types, and there are some who are oneness believing types (who are not affiliated with us),..... then there are ones who claim a Pentecostal upbringing, but have no relationship to any of us whatsoever. That would be your snake-handling types.

Ones that want to run in the aisles, be purposely slain in the Spirit, make boastful personal prophecies to people, etc. That sort of activity all fits under the more fleshly types of Pentecostalism.

Just because a person claims being filled with The Holy Spirit, doesn't mean they don't learn bad Pentecostal habits, and refuse to break them when GOD points their activity out to them.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,608
9,479
51
The Wild West
✟946,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I think you should be somewhat interested in my denomination so you can learn to stop spreading false information about us. You're a history buff on everything else it seems.


There's a difference in the term Pentecostal. There are some, like myself, who are triune believing types, and there are some who are oneness believing types (who are not affiliated with us),..... then there are ones who claim a Pentecostal upbringing, but have no relationship to any of us whatsoever. That would be your snake-handling types.

Ones that want to run in the aisles, be purposely slain in the Spirit, make boastful personal prophecies to people, etc. That sort of activity all fits under the more fleshly types of Pentecostalism.

Just because a person claims being filled with The Holy Spirit, doesn't mean they don't learn bad Pentecostal habits, and refuse to break them when GOD points their activity out to them.

I’m very concerned with accuracy, and it is specifically the types of churches that call themselves Pentecostal that do the snake handling thing or the slain in the spirit aspect and certain other practices which I have doctrinal objections to.

The only thing you’ve mentioned in a post which if I understood you correctly I would object to, but I might have misread your post, is that I believe very strongly that we should be baptized in accordance with the formula in Matthew 28:19, because this Triume formula is used and has been used in all recorded liturgies going back to the ancient books of church order from the first and second century AD, and also that verse is present in all of the oldest manuscript codices, whereas the Longer Ending of Mark is not, although my church and I believe it is canonical, but nonetheless, if one is baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost one has been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,702
2,107
61
✟252,320.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
I’m very concerned with accuracy, and it is specifically the types of churches that call themselves Pentecostal that do the snake handling thing or the slain in the spirit aspect and certain other practices which I have doctrinal objections to.

As far as I know that is correct, but they up in the Appalachians are not associated with the AOG. Please stop associating them with us, if you are truly desiring to be historically correct.

The only thing you’ve mentioned in a post which if I understood you correctly I would object to, but I might have misread your post, is that I believe very strongly that we should be baptized in accordance with the formula in Matthew 28:19, because this Triume formula is used and has been used in all recorded liturgies going back to the ancient books of church order from the first and second century AD, and also that verse is present in all of the oldest manuscript codices, whereas the Longer Ending of Mark is not, although my church and I believe it is canonical, but nonetheless, if one is baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

My water immersion in the name of Jesus is correct and witnessed by the apostles. I'm sorry that they did not get that memo from Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Always in His Presence

Jesus is the only Way
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
52,701
18,102
Broken Arrow, OK
✟1,214,529.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Do you think Paul got it wrong?
No - but mankind sure has made something so simple, very complicated.

Paul could not have gotten it wrong if we believe all Scripture is God breathed - inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict Himself.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,608
9,479
51
The Wild West
✟946,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
As far as I know that is correct, but they up in the Appalachians are not associated with the AOG. Please stop associating them with us, if you are truly desiring to be historically correct.

Forgive me, its not my intention to associate them with your church - they identify as Pentecostal, but I do understand that most Pentecostal Christians do not do that, but nonetheless, they identify as Pentecostal, and just as any review of Lutheran churches cannot limit itself to those Evangelical Catholic churches like the LCMS, LCC, AALC, and other members of the International Lutheran Council that my beloved friends @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian are members of, but would also have to include not only other confessional Lutheran churches that are interesting to me on some level such as the ELS, WELS, ELDONA and the NALC, but also the mainline churches of the Lutheran World Federation whose liberal theology I am not interested in endorsing or referring to in any way, such as the ELCA, ELCIC and the various de facto and de juree state churches of Western Europe (such as the Church of Sweden, Church of Norway, Church of Denmark, Church of Finland, Church of the Faroe Islands, the Evangelical Church in Germany, et cetera).

Some of these Lutheran churches are liberal, some are Pietistic, and some are crypto-Calvinist, whereas those I support are the Evangelical Catholic churches that are broadly traditional and are evocative of my own church and which in many cases are seeking to make available the liturgical excellence that existed during the celebrated period of Lutheran Orthodoxy 300 years ago, when Bach was Thomascantor, presiding over a liturgical excellence in the Saxon churches centered around the Thomaskirche and Nicholaskirche, the de facto cathedral and pro-cathedral of Leipzig respectively (the Saxon church lacked bishops I think, but if it had them, those two churches would have been the cathedral churches, and the liturgy celebrated there had a level of richness, beauty and complexity on a par with those of the most splendid Anglo Catholic cathedrals, parishes and colleges in the Anglican communion (such as Westminster Abbey, St. Magnus the Martyr, the Chapel Royal, and All Saints Margaret Street) the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, the Assyrian Church of the East, and Roman Catholic liturgies such as the Tridentine Rite, traditional pre-1950s Ambrosian Rite, the Mozarabic Rite and the pre-Vatican II Dominican Rite.

Likewise if I focus on Anglicanism I have to include in addition to the aforementioned splendid Anglo Catholic churches some Anglican churches whose worship I regard as lacking, for example, Holy Trinity Brompton, or in some cases have to regard as doctrinally problematic, for example, the eclectic contrived liturgics of an Episcopal Church in San Francisco that I am tired of promoting by even mentioning its name (but ironically, they selected the name of an Orthodox saint who some people incorrectly believe taught Universalism - the parish has Universalist inclinations, but their patron saint and his brother St. Basil the Great are two of around five Church Fathers who were bishops who enacted in their own dioceses canons which strongly condemned all forms of homosexual behavior, and these canons in turn were extremely influential and helped clarify that under no cases, could oikonomia be used in the case of homosexuality.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,702
2,107
61
✟252,320.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Forgive me, its not my intention to associate them with your church - they identify as Pentecostal, but I do understand that most Pentecostal Christians do not do that, but nonetheless, they identify as Pentecostal,

That's all that you needed to post to me.

Serious question,....... do you have a hard time controlling your academic mind?
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,608
9,479
51
The Wild West
✟946,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
That's all that you needed to post to me.

Serious question,....... do you have a hard time controlling your academic mind?

No sir. I suffer from fairly excruciating pain which sometimes makes it impossible for me to work as much as I would prefer, so prayers are appreciated, but in suffering me to use this mind which belongs to Him, our all-beneficent Lord has given me the third greatest gift Christ our True God has given me in this life, after my beloved family and my faith in Him.

I can’t claim ownership on my mind - it is mine in the sense that if I am invited to a conference and put up in a hotel, the hotel room at the conference is mine: it is a gift entrusted to me by God for use in His service and in pursuit of salvation of souls He has the right and the power to take it from me, which he might do at any time, but I pray for His infinite mercy, that I be allowed to live in love and happiness with my family, and if God wills it, that I continue to retain these faculties for my natural life, at which time I will repose, and in Heaven be granted from Him a blissful repose awaiting the last judgement at which, God willing, with my family and those in my church I hope I might be permitted to join Him in the life of the world to come.

The things we have are gifts from God and I am thankful for what He has given to me in my life.
 
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
14,393
4,827
72
Franklin, Tennessee
✟329,068.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Do you think Paul got it wrong?
Not at all. He was right about our Lord having said "This is My body" and "“This cup is the new covenant in My blood" as well. Miss that, and it just becomes a sip and a nibble, and the day you take it on makes little difference.
 
  • Love
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
17,608
9,479
51
The Wild West
✟946,075.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Not at all. He was right about our Lord having said "This is My body" and "“This cup is the new covenant in My blood" as well. Miss that, and it just becomes a sip and a nibble, and the day you take it on makes little difference.

Indeed, whereas it is desirable to celebrate it as frequently as is permitted by one’s liturgical rite otherwise - I wish more Episcopal parishes in the US had a daily Eucharist, but some of our cathedrals do, and in the Church of England this is common. In the Anglican tradition, the Eucharist can in theory be celebrated on any day of the week, but in practice, high church Anglicans such as yourself usually follow the example of the traditional Western churches in having either not celebrating the Eucharist on Good Friday or in celebrating a pre-sanctified Holy Communion Service, sometimes using an Anglican Missal instead of the Book of Common Prayer, while in other cases using the BCP with special rubrics (in the Episcopal church the 1979 BCP offers enough flexibility to do a pre-sanctified mass on Good Friday or other occasions; indeed the so-called “Rite III” provides enough flexibility to interface with any other liturgical service books indirectly if one cannot obtain permission to use them directly, but since some Episcopal parishes are allowed to use the 1928 BCP or in the case of St. Thomas Fifth Ave in New York, celebrate Choral Evensong using the rubrics from the Church of England; I don’t know if they’re using the 1662 BCP or Common Worship, since traditional Choral Evensong can be done identically using either, and also using the 1928 Deposited Book and practically any other English Book of Common Prayer, albeit the prayers for the Royal Family are being replaced by prayers for the US as appropriate.

You could also do this using the 1979 BCP and Rite I; the main difference is that the English BCP combines the Preces for Morning and Evening Prayer in Rite I of the 1979 BCP for both offices and for the Great Litany, so if either of these three services are being celebrated, one uses this Preces:

Priest: O Lord, open thou our lips.
Answer. And our mouth shall show forth thy praise.
Priest. O God, make speed to save us.
Answer. O Lord, make haste to help us.

For some reason, in American editions of the Book of Common Prayer prior to the 1979, only the first half was used for any office (whether Morning Prayer/Choral Mattins, Evening Prayer/Choral Evensong or the Litany, with a few exceptions, for example An Office of Compline from the 1914 Book of Offices*) and this was not a result of Scottish Episcopalian influence (which is manifested in the Order for Holy Communion, which features the Epiclesis derived from the ancient Divine Liturgy of St. James, the historic liturgy of the Church in Jerusalem, and from which the only surviving Armenian Eucharistic prayer, the Anaphora of St. Athanasius, is derived).** The Scottish Episcopalians were among the proto-Anglo Catholic movements, because they believed in the real presence, like some members of the Caroline Divines and the very early High Church, whose wishes resulted in the infamous “Black Rubric” (a rubric that is not rubricated***, unlike other rubrics in the BCP, and which was basically a denial of the Real Presence of our Lord rather than a bona fide liturgical instruction, which is what rubrics are supposed to be) being removed from the 1560 and 1604 BCP, not to make a reappearance until after the English Civil War, when the 1662 BCP reintroduced it (this, along with the Commination Service and the Visitation of the Sick, is one of the unpleasant aspects of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer that make me really regret the sinister coalition in Parliament that obstructed the formal adoption of the 1928 BCP in the House of Commons, which had been approved by the House of Lords and the internal parliamentary structures of the Church of England, and which was much more Anglo-Catholic.

* Compline from the 1914 Episcopal Book of Offices, which was used with the 1892 and 1928 editions of the Protestant Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, begins with this (note it says Minister and not Priest, since in fact in both the Church of England and the Episcopal Church, anyone can lead Evening Prayer or Compline and say most of the rest of the Divine Office, the only difference being that only a Priest or Bishop can use certain prayers of absolution following the Confiteor (which is the one that includes the petition for forgiveness “for we have left undone those things we ought to have done, and have done those things we ought not to have done”) the expectation in an Episcopal church is that at a mininumsomeone in some sanctioned ministerial capacity, such as a licensed Reader, or a choirmaster, would preside:

Minister. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Answer. Amen.
Minister. Turn thou us, O God our Saviour;
Answer. And let Thine anger cease from us.
Minister. O God, make speed to save us.
Answer. O Lord, make haste to help us.”

these Preces, which I quite like, as it demonstrates the Orthodox belief shared with many Anglicans, Lutherans and other liturgical Christians that God, being pure love, desireth not the death of a sinner, and therefore His wrath is not like the human passion of wrath, which is a sin, but rather, the wrath of God is the experience of the consuming fire of His love by those who reject it and hate Him; God purifies that which is in opposition to His holiness as a function of His infinite and pure love for us, and if one voluntarily elects to hate God one will experience this purification, and that is the wrath of God - furthermore, the Orthodox additionally believe that Hell is not a creation of God for the intentional torture of sinners, as if God sadistically devices tortures and punishments such as one sees in the nonsensical books “Inferno” and “Purgatorio” of the Divine Comedy of Dante Alighieri (which is important as a work of literature but which unfortunately reflects to some extent actual widespread early Renaissance era eschatological beliefs that resulted from the emergence of Scholastic theology, particularly in the depiction of the Beatific Vision in the third volume “Paradiso” in the same manner in that Left Behind is reflective of actual Premillenial Dispensational theology, both being positions I disagree with), but rather, hellfire would be the experience of God in immediate proximity in the life of the World to Come for those who hate Him, and in order to spare them such a torture, God allows them the Outer Darkness, as an ultimate mercy to the merciless, in which their worst torment is, according to the likes of St. John Chrysostom, a realization of the joy they are eternally missing out on, which is indeed the worst possible torment, but most of them would not change it; a fictional work which is somewhat depressingly realistic is The Great Divorce by CS Lewis which depicts people from Hell being given the chance to enter Heaven but making up excuses as to why the slight inconvenience of going to Heaven is not worth their time; CS Lewis also gave us another very valid observation, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.”

** The Divine Liturgy of St. James is also the principle Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) of the Syriac Orthodox Church, and one of four in frequent use, and one of fourteen readily available in English translation, which is already the record (since I think the C of E counting both the 1662 BCP and Common Worship has ten, the Episcopal Church including Enriching Our Worship Vol. 1 and not counting the 1928 and earlier versions of the BCP, which are minor variations on Eucharistic Prayer A of Rite II or the first Eucharistic Prayer of Rite I, has eleven, and the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church has thirteen, with the Eastern Orthodox having, not counting the Western Rite liturgies, three in regular service counting the Pre-sanctified Liturgy of St. Gregory, and four more infrequently used including Divine Liturgy of St. James, which is used on the feast of St. James in many parishes in North America on October 23rd and in rotation with the main liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom at the New Skete Monastery, the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy of St. James which was recently revived and is occasionally used by ROCOR at their main seminary at Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, New York, and the very seldom used Divine Liturgy of St. Mark (which exists in an 1893 recension very similar to the existing liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom), and the even less commonly used Divine Liturgy of St. Peter (which uses the Byzantine synaxis, but as the anaphora it uses a version of the Roman Canon; both of these liturgies were in use by the Russian Old Rite Orthdox living in Turkey under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, before they had to flee to the West and when leaving the country, their ancient service books were confiscated, but a Greek Euchologion with content identical to the Church Slavonic Euchologion they had described was found on Mount Athos, and from that source we have the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter.

This liturgy, like that of St. Mark, could probably be used in some parishes in lieu of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil or St. John Chrysostom with no one noticing, but in others, the priests read all the prayers aloud, and in some cases they make a point of doing this during the build up to Lent so people can hear the difference between the St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom liturgies aside from the substitution of the hymn of Marian devotion “All of Creation” (which before the recent genocide was in my signature” instead of “It Is Truly Meet.”

However, the Syriac Orthodox exceed even the fifty or so anaphoras of the Maronites (all but six of which have been disused since Vatican II) with a record-setting eighty six Eucharistic prayers, which is quite a large number. I have access to many of them written in Estranglo, but without the text set up for OCR, thus, translating them is too much work for me right now, although I hope to work on that at some point, and if anyone is interested in working with me on it, there does appear to be an automated process, and additionally certain new AI systems do have knowledge of Classical Syriac and also have the ability to orchestrate tasks. So it might not take that much time or money to translate the roughly forty or so that I have access to PDFs of. Additionally I have a complete English translation of a Syriac Orthodox anaphora in addition fo the fourteen one can find on Syriac Orthodox Resources, and a partial translation of a few others that could be combined with the common parts, as most of the anaphoras are identical except for the text surrounding the Kiss of Peace, the Sursum Corda, the Sanctus, the Institution Narrative, the Words of Instituttion and the Epiklesis, but the entire text is provided, and occasionally something else is subtly different. And it is frustrating that there are so many beautiful Eucharistic prayers in existence which are inaccessible except to the small number of people who not only can read or speak Aramaic but who can read Estrangelo text and know the Classical Syriac Dialect (of which I have some knowledge, but not enough to understand all of these manuscripts; trying to do so with my level of Syriac knowledge is akin to that of a web developer attempting to rewrite a core part of the Linux kernel such as the process scheduler.

*** Rubrication refers to the practice of printing liturgical instructions in red ink, which dates back to the very early church and is found in some of the oldest extant liturgical texts, hence the phrase “Read the black, do the red” commonly heard in liturgical churches. The practice was later adopted by enterprising printers to make Red Letter Bibles in which the words of Jesus Christ in the New Testament (but frustratingly, not other statements made by God elsewhere in the BIble) were printed in red ink. I I would rather rubrication be used as it was historically, for indicating rubrics, and not to delineate those words spoken by Jesus Christ which can carry the problematic implication that they can be contextually separated from the rest of Scripture - no ancient manuscript of the Bible was rubricated in that manner, but instead, ancient manuscripts were beautifully illuminated, and I wish there were more illuminated manuscripts at present, which might then be mass-replicated using our modern printing technology. I myself am considering doing an illuminated manuscript; if anyone is interested in this do let me know.

Of course, to save money, most versions of the Book of Common Prayer including the version of the 1979 BCP on pews in the US simply write rubrics in italics. That said, some editions do use red ink, for example, the famous Standard Editions of the 1892 and 1928 Book of Common Prayer which were designed by the master printer Daniel Berkeley Updike, a PDF recreation of the 1892 version is available here:


If one likes to use an ebook version of the Book of Common Prayer, I strongly suggest this rendering of the even more elegant 1928 edition:


Whereas the PDF scans of the vellum-printed folio of the 1892 edition show exquisite Art Nouveau design (caution, this is a 68 MB PDF file): http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1892Standard/1892standard.pdf

A Prospectus was created for the 1979 BCP by the master printers of Arrion Press in San Francisco, but was tragically not ordered by the Episcopal Church (they could have sold subscriptions for it for quite a lot of money, which would have offset the printing costs of the 1979 BCP and could have funded many charitable endeavors): http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1979Prospectus.pdf

However, since all versions of the Episcopalian Book of Common Prayer are public domain, and most of the 2019 ACNA BCP is being released as public domain, this can still happen as a means of producing a beautiful prayer book and of funding important Anglican charitable work, for example, contributing to relief efforts for the persecuted Christians in the Middle East, Africa and Pakistan (the Anglican Church of Pakistan is one of the most endangered churches at the moment, along with the Syrian parishes of the Syriac Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, Anglican, Latin Rite Catholic and Melkite Greek Catholic churches in the Christian parts of cities and towns such as Damascus, Maaloula, Aleppo, Homs and Latakia.

Additionally, the public domain MMXXIII BCP produced by the Anglican members of my LiturgyWorks group might have a standard edition in the future, produced in print in a standard configuration for charity (normally, this is a modular book which can be adapted for different needs).

Lastly, as a fun little aside, the Church of England printed Alternative Service Trial Liturgies with very elegant typography in the late 1960s and early 1970s, Series II and Series III, that featured rubrics printed in blue ink, which I like to call “Blubrics.” Or perhaps one might call them Brubrecks in honor of the very talented jazz musician responsible for the classic “Take Five.” Which I will need to do after writing all of this…
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
42,860
23,382
30
Nebraska
✟1,041,423.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
No, Paul didn't get it wrong, but I think you make an erroneous assumption that churches celebrating communion on Sunday are proclaiming His resurrection, not death. I can't say about all of them since I have not done a wide study, but here are some examples from my Episcopal Church Eucharistic Prayers:

Eucharistic Prayer A:
Christ has died.
Christ is risen.
Christ will come again.

We celebrate the memorial of our redemption, O Father, in
this sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. Recalling his death,
resurrection, and ascension, we offer you these gifts.


Eucharistic Prayer B:
We remember his death/ We proclaim his resurrection/ We await his coming in glory” (BCP, p. 368).

Eucharistic Prayer D:
Father, we now celebrate this memorial of our redemption. Recalling Christ’s death and his descent among the dead, proclaiming his resurrection and ascension to your right hand, awaiting his coming in glory; and offering to you, from the gifts you have given us, this bread and this cup, we praise you and we bless you.

I think another interesting question, then, is what is being commemorated when we celebrate communion on a Wednesday, a Tuesday, or any other day of the week?
Yup. Same with the Catholic Church, especially during the memorial acclamation.

We proclaim your Death, O Lord, and profess your Resurrection, until you come again

When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again
Save us, Savior of the world, for by your Cross and Resurrection, you have set us free
 
Upvote 0