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Female pastor faces backlash for draping ‘un-Christian emblem’ over Communion table

stevevw

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I notice it says "A Lean Right bias is a moderately conservative rating on the political spectrum". So they have turned what was commonsense Christainity into a position on the political spectrum.

That in itself is a political position on the political spectrum lol. Its like a self fulling prophesy that everything, our beliefs, religion, nature is a political position.

What about that its just our God given and natural order. That it has nothing to do with politics and is actually a spiritual position. An experiential position which is based on reality.
 
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Joseph G

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Acknowledging LGBT persons and their dignity is not sinful, and on occasion it might even be right and proper to do so. If that means using a different colored altar cloth, I don't think that is sinful. There is no requirement about the color of the paraments, only custom.

You do realize that transpeople serve in the Church of England as ordained clergy? It seems to me the Church of England has already accepted transpeople. Fretting over an altar cloth... that ship has sailed, and this is just a nothingburger meant to fire up anger and resentment against trasnpeople and their allies.
Great. Will you say the same for pedophiles and participants in beastiality once they are accepted and championed by an institutional church? How depraved does mankind have to be before we uphold Biblical directives over the popular opinion of hedonists?
 
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RamiC

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Great. Will you say the same for pedophiles and participants in beastiality once they are accepted and championed by an institutional church? How depraved does mankind have to be before we uphold Biblical directives over the popular opinion of hedonists?
Thank you.

This, "If I told you that the Church of England also rejects Athiests, Philosophical Vegans, Fundamentalist Christians and Polytheist Pagans, would you try to say we could be "united in Christ"?" from my post #31 in this thread. The list here is not people unwelcome in our churches, it is ideologies we believe are not compatible with our own, as a church. That is ideas and beliefs, not people.

Perhaps some of the mislead inclusivists in this thread do not understand, the flag in question represents not "trans people", but "Transgender Ideology" and constant unending promotion of said. It is a campaign to obliterate the solid scientific concept of male and female, and it has no end goal, and it is proselytising.

I do not object to Intersexed people declaring that on account of their biological disorder, they do not feel a sense of being male or female. There are scientific reasons for that.

I object in the strongest terms to the combination of a human adult male, wearing a dress and a long haired wig, holding up a sign that says "My gender is not a disorder." The fact that this human being, who is loved of God, and worthy of dignity and respect, believes the dress and the wig part actually make him a woman is really incorrect thinking. To say otherwise is dangerous, and that, at least to me, is very obvious.

Just put the bizarre sign down, leave all else as is, I'll have a coffee with a man in a dress, no problem, but if he thinks his taste in clothes means he is a woman, I must, I feel obliged in all honesty, inform him that he is in error. At the point where this person actually believes he can and should be permitted to enter public swimming pools during an advertised "women only session", his fundamental lack of simple manners is a real worry.
 
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Servus

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We are united in Christ. Christ is still the head of the Church. We are not a political party at prayer, or a social club, we are serious Christians, despite what our Fundamenttalist detractors might say about us, we believe otherwise. We just don't believe in en exclusionary gospel based on patriarchal and essentialized gender roles.
Christ being the head of the church means laying aside all personal interests and desires in pursuit of holiness, which is how inclusion is established. That is the command of Christ as Lord and has always been the only way.

For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. Matthew 16:25
 
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Servus

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Great. Will you say the same for pedophiles and participants in beastiality once they are accepted and championed by an institutional church? How depraved does mankind have to be before we uphold Biblical directives over the popular opinion of hedonists?
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14
 
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stevevw

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Acknowledging LGBT persons and their dignity is not sinful, and on occasion it might even be right and proper to do so.
What, why would we even have to be unsure of this and think its only proper on occassions. It should be 100% of the time that we acknowledge peoples dignity. That is a fundemental human right.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I agree about all being welcome in our churches, this does not require putting strange, specific flags in important places that are supposed to symbolize devotion to our Lord.

There is concern about real harm to children involved on this subject, I linked to an article in my post #4. Rev Ian Paul is neither American nor fundamentalist.

I think anything political has no place in our churchs. I wouldn't attend a church that displayed the American flag either though I'm an American and do believe it's worth something if we do the right thing. But there's just no place for it in God's meeting house (though we still vote etc etc in state and national elections and participate in society,).

But church is church. Nothing but the things of God belong.
 
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seeking.IAM

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Acknowledging LGBT persons and their dignity is not sinful, and on occasion it might even be right and proper to do so
On this I agree in principle, yet I think worship is not the occasion when it is right and proper to do. My opposition has nothing to do with LGBTQ folks, it has to do with what I think is fitting for corporate worship. I desire it to be replete with symbols of the faith and no secular symbols . No flag. No banner. No Christmas tree.

(And for good measure I will throw in I don't want to see a multi-media screen either. I am just grumpy like that. :sunglasses:)
 
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FireDragon76

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On this I agree in principle, yet I think worship is not the occasion when it is right and proper to do. My opposition has nothing to do with LGBTQ folks, it has to do with what I think is fitting for corporate worship. I desire it to be replete with symbols of the faith and no secular symbols . No flag. No banner. No Christmas tree.

(And for good measure I will throw in I don't want to see a multi-media screen either. I am just grumpy like that. :sunglasses:)

I can see where you are coming from, but I think you are overlooking something. The LGBT community isn't just a "secular group", they are made in the image of God, and too often that has been denied.

I've been to churches where some of the paraments are pride colors, and I didn't feel it was inappropriate. Especially if the church has a particular mission to the LGBT community.
 
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FireDragon76

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Great. Will you say the same for pedophiles and participants in beastiality once they are accepted and championed by an institutional church? How depraved does mankind have to be before we uphold Biblical directives over the popular opinion of hedonists?

Sorry, I'm not going to answer that, for obvious reasons.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I've been to churches where some of the paraments are pride colors, and I didn't feel it was inappropriate. Especially if the church has a particular mission to the LGBT community.
One of the churches I attend periodically for special services is predominantly gay, likely based upon its unique neighborhood coupled with its welcoming stance. I confess sometimes feeling like a minority there as a straight man. It is high church, Anglo-Catholic with all the smells and bells. It is farther from my house, and I go because it offers some special services when my church does not (e.g., the Easter Vigil) or when I need a dose of high church worship lacking in my broad parish. Its paraments always reflect the liturgical season of the Church. You won't find a banner or flag in the nave, but you better be able to tolerate incense. Being welcoming has nothing to do with artificial adornments. That is how I see it, anyway.
 
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RamiC

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I wouldn't attend a church that displayed the American flag either... there's just no place for it in God's meeting house
Please excuse this ramble, but you really inspired me to think of this...

A few years ago there was an imortant football (soccer) match on live at a time when members of our church were obliged to be at a service. The second that service was done I heard a mobile phone beep behind me. I turned round to find this sheepishly guilty expression on a young man's face. I had no time to correct him for mistakenly thinking I was annoyed with him for getting his phone back on so fast, I just blurted "Was that the football score?", which of course, he promptly shared with me.

If I had arrived at that Mass to see an England flag on the altar, I mean wow distracting, not helpful at all. Now that is a Cross of St George, it is a Christian symbol, and a hero of persecuted Christians too. I had gone there because Jesus is God, and no sport is. The plain white cloth, and all our other usual focus points for worship and devotion were how I could (and I did) get that match out of my head...until that familiar noise popped up after we were through. There is no national flag, or "rights flag" belongs there,

And there's another country I have heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know,
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King,
But her fortress is a faithfull heart
Her
pride is suffering.


There is our colour for the purity of the Lord, on His table, where His Body and Blood will be placed before we consume them as He directed His followers to do. For those whose faith is built and nurtured in our tradition, to change that cloth is to bring the outside world in to the Lord's House. It is wrong.
 
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JSRG

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In this case, the Christian Post is largely correct, although their explanation is incomplete. Just because you accept evolution doesn't mean you aren't a Fundamentalist.

I've never met a fundamentalist who believed in evolution.

That doesn't mean rejection of evolution means one is a fundamentalist, but I've never seen any do so.

Early Fundamentalism was not characterized by a denial of evolution, necessarily. What was distinctive was a belief that there 5 doctrines that were "fundamental" to the Christian faith (inerrancy of Scriptures, deity of Christ, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, supernatural miracles, etc.), and that liberal scholars, with the newer "German" historical-critical method, somehow had denied these fundamental and essential beliefs, and could no longer be considered Christians in any meaningful sense. They tried to launch heresy trials to try to use against professors they suspected of being in violation of their "fundamentals", but eventually, after losing the battle, they left the mainline denominations and formed their own alternative institutions.

In reality, Fundamentalists were being funded by wealthy oil barons who were opposed to progressive politics and the so-called "Social Gospel", which sometimes used the newer German critical tools in support of progressive political readings of the Scriptures that emphasized less personal salvation and the hereafter ,and more about the Kingdom of God as an immanent reality in this world.

If you are in one of the many generally smaller Evangelical churches in the US today (the largest isn't actually small at all, being the Southern Baptist Convention, which caved in to the Fundamentalists in the 1970's), you are most likely in a church where Fundamentalism is being preached and enculturated, to some extent or another, and that is why I use that term, referring to the historical usage, and not in any way to implying anything other than that. Fundamentalism is, and has been, a distinct social and theological movement within American Protestantism, and must be distinguished from the established Mainline churches in the US that do not necessarily reject things like higher criticism of the Bible, and that while we hold to the historic Christian faith, we do not believe any particular doctrines can be considered essential or fundamental over others.
So, you say you were just using the "historical usage" of fundamentalism. Except that usage dropped out of favor long ago--if one looks at the article for Wikipedia, it looks like that "original" meaning of fundamentalism was basically exchanged for "evangelical" leaving the ones who continued to have the fundamentalist label be the far more extreme versions, and this happened more than half a century ago (it indicates this shift started in the 1940's).

This is akin to when people pull the whole "the United States isn't a democracy!" card (relying on an obsolete meaning of the word). Or if I were to say "you're an awful person" and when you take offense, I just say "hey, I'm using the original meaning of the word, which meant awe inspiring." Unless you are clear, few people are going to understand you're using an older definition of a word.

If you had just said "evangelical" or better yet "conservative" instead of "fundamentalist" then you would've been clear in your point.
 
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FireDragon76

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I've never met a fundamentalist who believed in evolution.

That doesn't mean rejection of evolution means one is a fundamentalist, but I've never seen any do so.


So, you say you were just using the "historical usage" of fundamentalism. Except that usage dropped out of favor long ago--if one looks at the article for Wikipedia, it looks like that "original" meaning of fundamentalism was basically exchanged for "evangelical" leaving the ones who continued to have the fundamentalist label be the far more extreme versions, and this happened more than half a century ago (it indicates this shift started in the 1940's).

This is akin to when people pull the whole "the United States isn't a democracy!" card (relying on an obsolete meaning of the word). Or if I were to say "you're an awful person" and when you take offense, I just say "hey, I'm using the original meaning of the word, which meant awe inspiring." Unless you are clear, few people are going to understand you're using an older definition of a word.

If you had just said "evangelical" or better yet "conservative" instead of "fundamentalist" then you would've been clear in your point.

It's not an obsolete definition, if we understand Fundamnetalism as a religious movement that changes over time. At one time, Fundamentalism did not have creationism as a defining factor, but I would argue today that is still the case, and many "Evangelicals" are in fact Neo-Fundamentalists, just with different marketting and branding, but their general attitudes, owing to their origins in religious schismatics, is still largely the same.
 
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