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Not ALL Manufacturing Can Be Brought Back to America

Stephen3141

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This article discusses how modern cell phones are made, and the metal, and
the computer chips that they use.

Tarriffs on metals, will not much affect the cost of cell phones, IF they were
made in America.

BUT, the silicon chips that cell phones use, are OFTEN manufactured (but
NOT DESIGNED) in Taiwan, by the leading manufacturer of computer chips
in the world, TSMC.

It is a crude misunderstanding that Taiwan "stole" the manufacturing of computer
chips, from the West. What Taiwan has done, is put enormous effort and discipline
into building more and more precise (and smaller) computerized chips, so that
the rest of the world tends to brings its best chip designs to TSMC, for TSMC to
build. And, TSMC builds chips with such a low rate of rejection, that it can build
these chips cheaper than the rest of the world.

One reason why Communist China wants to take Taiwan, is to seize these high
quality chip manufacturing gactories, and their employees.
---------- ----------

Another point of fairness... TSMC has agreed to build a chip manufacturing
factory in America, BUT... their main probleem is that they CANNOT GET THE
QUALITY EMPLOYEES, WHO ARE HIGHLY EDUCATED, AND HIGHTLY DISCIPLINED,
TO WORK IN THE FACTORY. The work requires long hour shifts, and highly
disciplined employees, who work for NOT outrageous salaries. And, America cannot
produce enough of these quality employees.


The bottom line is that the manufacture of cell phones will not return to America,
this year. And, if American standards of producing quality workers does not
improve (the poor standards of reading and STEM skills is just the tip of the iceberg),
then producing all the components for world class cell phones will NOT return to
America. Regardless of all the bluster and BullSpeak about America being the best
in everything....

Perhaps TSMC could take the best of the ditched federal government workers, and
retrain them to work in high tech chip manufacturing factories.
 

JustaPewFiller

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Yup - I can't really argue with any of that.

The chips made today aren't really your grandfather's chips any more.

Although I did hear IBM is making some of its new quantum chips in NY. But that is more R&D now than anything I think.
 
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FireDragon76

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Yup - I can't really argue with any of that.

The chips made today aren't really your grandfather's chips any more.

No, they are better than that, in fact. Much better. The best mass production chip fabrication technology in the world is in Taiwan. And that's not an exaggeration. And that's not something you can just recreate in the US in four years.
 
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JustaPewFiller

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WHO ARE HIGHLY EDUCATED, AND HIGHTLY DISCIPLINED,
TO WORK IN THE FACTORY. The work requires long hour shifts, and highly
disciplined employees, who work for NOT outrageous salaries. And, America cannot
produce enough of these quality employees.

Just a note on the salary..

From what I've heard TSMC does offer better than average salary's for Taiwan, but working there can be long hours and a grind. But, employee's there can have "comfortable" existence.

But, a lot of that depends on cost living and I admit I do not know what it is in Taiwan. I do know several what I would call "mid-level" tech workers (developers, etc) in Fortune 50 firms in major cities in the US that cannot afford to rent an apartment on their own with their salary.

In many cases, cost of living has become so outrageous that people are looking for outrageous salaries. But, that is another topic.
 
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Richard T

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This article discusses how modern cell phones are made, and the metal, and
the computer chips that they use.

Tarriffs on metals, will not much affect the cost of cell phones, IF they were
made in America.

BUT, the silicon chips that cell phones use, are OFTEN manufactured (but
NOT DESIGNED) in Taiwan, by the leading manufacturer of computer chips
in the world, TSMC.

It is a crude misunderstanding that Taiwan "stole" the manufacturing of computer
chips, from the West. What Taiwan has done, is put enormous effort and discipline
into building more and more precise (and smaller) computerized chips, so that
the rest of the world tends to brings its best chip designs to TSMC, for TSMC to
build. And, TSMC builds chips with such a low rate of rejection, that it can build
these chips cheaper than the rest of the world.

One reason why Communist China wants to take Taiwan, is to seize these high
quality chip manufacturing gactories, and their employees.
---------- ----------

Another point of fairness... TSMC has agreed to build a chip manufacturing
factory in America, BUT... their main probleem is that they CANNOT GET THE
QUALITY EMPLOYEES, WHO ARE HIGHLY EDUCATED, AND HIGHTLY DISCIPLINED,
TO WORK IN THE FACTORY. The work requires long hour shifts, and highly
disciplined employees, who work for NOT outrageous salaries. And, America cannot
produce enough of these quality employees.


The bottom line is that the manufacture of cell phones will not return to America,
this year. And, if American standards of producing quality workers does not
improve (the poor standards of reading and STEM skills is just the tip of the iceberg),
then producing all the components for world class cell phones will NOT return to
America. Regardless of all the bluster and BullSpeak about America being the best
in everything....

Perhaps TSMC could take the best of the ditched federal government workers, and
retrain them to work in high tech chip manufacturing factories.
There are currently about 250,000 Filipinos working in Taiwan's chip factories. They make about 850-950 a month to start. Those factories discriminate usually on age and on sex. (Typically, women under the age of 40). Semiconductor industry promising for PH--Salceda
G2G Hiring: NXP Semiconductor in Taiwan is now hiring Factory Workers thru DMW special hiring

The wired article is interesting but the amount of aluminum in a phone likely is less than a dollar. So even a 25% tariff on aluminum would only be a 25 cent increase in costs for each phone. I am sure Apple and others worry about tariffs in general, but not on the cheaper raw materials. You are right too that unless tariff rates where high in every country the USA is not moving much if any production here. That the USA makes any chips is likely because of subsidies and automation. Chinese bust in trade is going to benefit other Asian nations. Malaysia from my understanding is especially promising. The USA needs some chip-making though in case of war. It is always good to be somewhat independent.
 
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Stephen3141

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My understanding is that the really high-end chips used in the AI
tools and research, are pretty much ALL made in Taiwan. Although, they
are not designed in Taiwan.

It was these high-end chips that I was referring to.

When Biden got TSMC to sponsor a chip factory in the USA, one of
the big impediments was the lack of highly trained American workers,
who were also ready to work 12 hour shifts.

Probably, a lot of countries are making the low end silicon chips
that run mechanical systems (such as your car engine).
 
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Stephen3141

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Just a note on the salary..

From what I've heard TSMC does offer better than average salary's for Taiwan, but working there can be long hours and a grind. But, employee's there can have "comfortable" existence.

But, a lot of that depends on cost living and I admit I do not know what it is in Taiwan. I do know several what I would call "mid-level" tech workers (developers, etc) in Fortune 50 firms in major cities in the US that cannot afford to rent an apartment on their own with their salary.

In many cases, cost of living has become so outrageous that people are looking for outrageous salaries. But, that is another topic.

I agree. the high cost of living in a lot of manufacturing areas in America, and the
lack of affordable housing, are why a lot of manufacturing jobs have gone
overseas.

If America wants to bring the MANUFACTURING of high end silicon chips
back to America, politicians will have to practically overcome these American
deficiencies. This is a national security issue. But it is also a generic problem
that America faces, and must overcome, if it wants to bring manufacturing
back to America.

Simplistic "BullSpeak" that blames the other political party of conspiring to
undercut the American economy, is a smokescreen. America has got to rethink
the foundations of its economy, and this may mean leaving behind the model
of "free trade" that the billionaires like, but that cuts out more and more of
the average middle class from getting college degrees, and advanced high
tech jobs that have employment security.
 
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JustaPewFiller

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I agree. the high cost of living in a lot of manufacturing areas in America, and the
lack of affordable housing, are why a lot of manufacturing jobs have gone
overseas.

If America wants to bring the MANUFACTURING of high end silicon chips
back to America, politicians will have to practically overcome these American
deficiencies. This is a national security issue. But it is also a generic problem
that America faces, and must overcome, if it wants to bring manufacturing
back to America.

Simplistic "BullSpeak" that blames the other political party of conspiring to
undercut the American economy, is a smokescreen. America has got to rethink
the foundations of its economy, and this may mean leaving behind the model
of "free trade" that the billionaires like, but that cuts out more and more of
the average middle class from getting college degrees, and advanced high
tech jobs that have employment security.

Agree - it is a complex issue with many parts and problems.

There is enough fault to go around that the political left, the political right, local, state and federal government and big business can all fairly get their share of the blame.

Here is article that talks about the problems TSMC faces in hiring in America.


In short, the article asks. "Why would someone with the degrees TSMC seeks (4year degree + masters in many cases + PHD if you are seeking a higher level role) go to work for TSMC when they can work for a company like Intel who offers better pay, a "kinder" company culture and a far better work/life balance? "

In addition there is the lawsuit TSMC faces over favoritism to Taiwanese employees.


I have to admit, given those hard facts I would pick Intel over TSMC as I am sure most would given the choice.

In addition you have the US college costs of roughly 100k or more for a 4year engineering and probably 60k for the masters to consider. I cannot blame anyone for going for a higher salary, better work / life job.

It is a thorny issue with many components. But, I'll admit that I see news of record company profits and record CEO pay in the billions sometimes and I would how much it would really hurt these big companies to boost the average employee pay a bit?
 
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