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One can eventually leave the teaching without ever having truly received it (hypocrite or another name is apostate).
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Precedent Faith
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But people do fall away just like Jesus specifically said they would. The only problem is that you automatically apply 1 John 2:19 to them when John wasn’t talking about all people in that passage. He was talking about a specific group of people. “THEY went out from us”. The word “THEY” is specifically talking about a particular group of people, NOT all people in general. James 5:19-20 is specifically talking ONLY about believers because ONLY believers who fall away will save their soul from death by turning BACK.
The way that you’re applying 1 John 2:19 directly contradicts James 5:19-20. James 5:19-20 cannot be referring to people who never believed because turning people who never believed BACK doesn’t save their soul from death. The only thing that a person can turn BACK to that will save their soul from death is BACK to believing in Christ. This means that obviously true believers can fall away and 1 John 2:19 cannot be saying that if ANYONE turns away that means that they weren’t a true believer. 1 John 2:19 says that “THEY” (the antichrists) were not true believers, not everyone who turns away.
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Doug Brents
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Even before salvation God is working in us to bring us to understand the Gospel and seek to please Him. Without His leading, we cannot come to surrender to Him. But His working in us does not force us to surrender to Him, nor does His continual work in us after salvation force us to stay in Him. Yes, He works in us to remain, but He does not force us to stay if we choose to leave.
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Yes, the group John was talking about were those who went out from them:
John Gill--"but they were not of us:" they were of the church, and of the same mind with it, at least in profession, antecedent to their going out; for had they not been in communion with the church, they could not be properly said to go out of it; and if they had not been of the same mind and faith in profession, they could not be said to depart from it; but they were not truly regenerated by the grace of God, and so apparently were not of the number, of God's elect: notwithstanding their profession and communion with the church, they were of the world, and not of God; they were not true believers; they had not that anointing which abides, and from which persons are truly denominated Christians, or anointed ones."
Albert Barnes--"But they were not of us" - That is, they did not really belong to us, or were not true Christians. See the notes at Matthew 7:23. This passage proves that these persons, whatever their pretensions and professions may have been, were never sincere Christians. The same remark may be made of all who apostatize from the faith, and become teachers of error. They never were truly converted; never belonged really to the spiritual church of Christ.
If those erring do not turn back, it manifests they were not reborn.
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Again if what you are saying about James 5 is correct then their soul was never in any danger of dying. So turning the person BACK wouldn’t actually save their soul from death because according to your interpretation their soul was never in any danger at all. So your explanation still doesn’t fit what is actually written.
And then there’s still Galatians 5:4 where people who had received the Holy Spirit were severed from Christ and had fallen from grace.
Furthermore Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:12 that if he or Timothy were to deny Christ, Christ would deny them. Paul is making it clear that both he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ just like Peter did. Although Peter repented, in Paul’s statement he makes it clear that even he and Timothy were capable of denying Christ to the point of being condemned on judgement day.
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It's my understanding that the passage shows if one is reborn or not. The only one that will not be turned back is one who is not reborn. There are Christians who are immature early in their new life and can make mistakes that they weren't aware of or misunderstood, until a mature Christian shows them the proper way.
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Not sure how that explains 2 Timothy 2:12. Is Paul questioning his own belief?
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Verses 11-13 describe believers and unbelievers. If we "deny Him" and do not "believe" in Him (12, 13), we are not reborn. This doesn't include Porter's denials, which were lies when he said he didn't know Him. In reality Peter always acknowledged and believed in the Lord Jesus. A genuine denial is where the person truly refuses to believe in Christ.
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It’s a personal letter from Paul to Timothy. It’s not addressed to a congregation, it’s not addressing a congregation, and it’s not about a congregation. Verses 11-13 are about Paul and Timothy. Hence the words “we” and “us”. Paul wrote a personal letter to Timothy and told him “if we deny Him, He will deny us”. Every time, you try to make the passage say things that they’re not saying. The scriptures should define our doctrines, not the other way around. You keep trying to interpret these passages to coincide with your doctrines but it’s not working because you have to resort to twisting them into saying things that they’re not actually saying.
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I believe Paul is meaning unbelievers when he says "if we deny," "if we believe not." He knows Christians will never deny or disbelieve in the Lord Jesus; he knows one reborn cannot become un-reborn, which isn't a word.
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The words “we” and “us” includes himself. If he was referring to someone else he would’ve used the words “they” and “them” not “we” and “us”. Anytime the words we and us are used it’s always in reference to ourselves as well as others, it’s NEVER used in reference to others apart from ourself. Never.
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Yes, he included himself, but it's just for the reader, because he knows a Christian will always choose the spiritual path (if known at the time).
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The reader is Timothy and if he thought that the reader would “always choose the spiritual path” then he would’ve never made that statement in the first place. Denying Christ to the point where Christ would deny him on judgment day means without repentance.
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I agree, this is descriptive of one not reborn! Only those who will never be reborn will deny Christ.
Appreciate your discussions with me and God bless!
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Doug Brents
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That is not what BNR said. This is not discriptive of those who will never be reborn. Paul (reborn) talking to Timothy (reborn) says that if we (you and/or I who are both reborn) deny Christ, then He will deny us.
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He will also deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Will we live with Him if we didn't die with Him?
Will we still reign with Him if we don't endure (to the end)?
We who have already died with Him can still deny Him, and then He WILL also deny us.
We who had faith and turn to faithlessness (and deny Him), will lose what we had by faith, but He remains faithful (for He cannot deny Himself).
What does verse 18 of 2 Tim 2 say? "men who have gone astray from the truth, claiming that the resurrection has already taken place; and they are jeopardizing the faith of some."
How could these men go astray from the truth if they never were in the truth to begin with? And how could they jeopardize the faith of some, if there is never any jeopardy for one who is in Christ?
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Hi Doug! Who's BNR, thanks?
Yes, the we includes himself, but he knows those reborn will always choose to be right with God. Why wouldn't they, when He "works" in them to "please" Him. The Scripture passages that seem to refute permanent salvation are difficult to understand, but that's so we will continue to seek and study the truth of God's Word concerning everything.
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No, this is very easy to understand when you let the Scripture shape your doctrine, instead of tying to make Scripture conform to your doctrine.
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