Urgent Religious Freedom Violation

Pommer said:

Perhaps I can explain President Trump’s “policy”.
In the past, we let pretty much anybody (who wasn’t Chinese) into the country: and they help build The USA into the Superpower that it is…but that time has ended and we only want people from (all) other countries who are well-off and will bring more wealth with them than the USA would have to spend on them in order for them to get “up and running”.

The fly in this ointment is that people who are in the upper-crust in other nations don’t want to emigrate to the USA, being happy being medium sized fish in their own ponds.

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and is Trump making people happy in their own countries move here?

FireDragon76 said:

Helping people in need, without discrimination, is a Christian virtue, last time I checked...

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That's inside the body of believers. Outside in the world, we need to be more discerning and not enable people to continue in their sin. Would you give cash to a drug addict so they can better destroy themselves?

Ephesians 4:14-16 said:

14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

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In this case, the most loving thing to say is: you are breaking the law and you are not welcome here, go home. Leaving people to be taken advantage of by skivvy employers and live in fear of being caught is not very loving or considerate, and giving them handouts just rewards them for their bad behavior and encourages them to continue.

The counterargument I'm hearing is that the conditions these people are walking away from to live illegally here are horrible. But the cost of living in those other countries is also lower. So if these people are getting less than federal minimum wage here, that's not good enough to live here in any sort of decent human way. As part of my college education, I read a memoir of an undocumented immigrant, and one researched novel. Both of them mentioned starvation as parts of their story. We're just taking them from horrible conditions into more of the same. (That would be Beautiful Country: Memoirs of an Undocumented Childhood by Qian Julie Wang and The Leavers by Lisa Ko, in case you wanted to hear from the mouth of the proverbial horse. The childhood trauma is striking.)

Now do we need to overhaul our legal immigration systems to admit more people to work here? Probably that answer is yes. But it's also probably less than 12 million, because the employers who employ illegal migrants pay them below federal minimum wage and evade paying taxes and benefits that all legal employees are both entitled to and have to pay. There are probably a number of American citizens who are unemployed right now and can't get a job because a non-citizen or even an illegal migrant is doing that work. So we need to throw the illegal migrants out and reevaluate how many people we actually need.

And what about the U.S. Citizens who are in need? We should prioritize them for charitable aid. The illegal migrants have their home countries they can go back to where they can at least be fed. If a U.S. citizen needs help, they have nowhere to go except where they are.

Sorry if this turned into more of a rant than I want, but I have a couple of friends who are U.S. Citizens and Christians who can't get jobs and who are living out of their cars. The point I'm trying to make is that we should not blindly give things away - it's not a virtue. We are called to be intelligent in how we go about our affairs, including giving, and not turn our brains off. I hope this post helps others to do that in a sensible manner.

It also should be noted that the first post was a question; I was genuinely interested in finding out how the Catholics interpret Romans 13 here, and to some extent I have received an answer. It's more of a point of curiosity to me than anything else.

FireDragon76 said:

FWIW, most homeless advocates say it's perfectly ethical to give direct cash help to the homeless.

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Aren't those people on the side of the drug addicts? There's actually a homeless organization in my area (supposedly Christian) that gives out free housing to drug addicts, but if you're not a drug addict, it's harder to get in (and who wants to live with drug addicts for neighbors down the hall?). Technically they give out free showers, hygiene products, and food to everyone, but then you're waiting in line with, you guessed it, drug addicts, to get your shower. These organizations incentivize repeat addiction by rewarding it with free housing, and they are rewarded for that with more money from the government. More drug addiction = more money for the homeless advocates. Not a good source.

Meanwhile, Christians are suffering for adherence to 1 Corinthians 16:19-20 by having to sleep in their cars at night. I'm sorry, but that makes me angry. I'm still human.

Churches and organizations in my area are legally required to give gift cards or direct food assistance to needy people to avoid enabling drug addiction. Again, Romans 13. (I once had a deacon in my area tell me that I needed to provide "proof of my job search" in order for them to continue providing me with gift cards to pay for my gas too. That hurt, but I could see his perspective.)

It does cause problems because you can't get assistance for high-order problems like storage unit rental payments and car insurance that needy people who live out of their cars face, but those people "live in luxury and aren't illegal migrants, so they can deal with their own problems". I think those with that opinion should sleep in their cars for a night or two. I've done that while traveling - it's cold.

Anyway, I've suffered from being in need and people not helping, but I think a lot of the reason why has to do with lack of discernment on the part of organizations trying to help the needy, not people being unloving and refusing to help anyone. I've been punished for my intelligence, honesty, and adherence to the Scriptures, and so have my friends.

FireDragon76 said:

A strange notion of love you got there. It also doesn't seem very hospitable at all.

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Without Truth, there is no love. Love comes with truth and being known and accepted. Otherwise you just get taken advantage of and kicked around.

Now, that doesn't mean that the people on the other end of my love have to love me or like me. I've worked manual labor for people who hate the banner of Christ and what I stand for as a witness to them and gave away thousands of dollars worth of landscaping materials that I was able to acquire for free. But I shrewdly selected my actions so that they would be a witness to the Truth, not enabling their sin patterns. That's the difference.

I've also worked with people who have suffered from trauma and they can get angry over trivial details because it reminds them of what their previous abusers have done. If you make a mistake while working, they can yell and lash out because other people in the past have let them down. Someone who doesn't know the truth - that's their mental illness talking, and not them - will ragequit and run away. "If you treat me like this, I'm not going to work for you anymore!" But what is the most loving thing to do? Ignore the rage and keep working, and help them solve their problems and heal up.

It's just a love that is informed by intelligence. If I'm giving away tomatoes on the side of the road, anyone can have them because tomatoes help everybody. I'm definitely okay with hospitality, but if a criminal comes to my home (or my tomato stand) and I know they are criminal, I'm reporting them to the police. I follow the laws and Romans 13.