Orthodoxy and Ethnic Identity

public hermit · Sep 25, 2024

I am curious about the thread posted by @cradleGO

Ethnic Salad of [American] Orthodoxy - EP View

People exploring Orthodoxy, especially in the US, can form the opinion that Orthodoxy is tied to an ethnic identity, more particularly, many ethnic identities. While that is true to a large extent, it is not what it seems. Converts, for one thing, make up a healthy per cent of the Faithful in...

www.christianforums.com

People exploring Orthodoxy, especially in the US, can form the opinion that Orthodoxy is tied to an ethnic identity, more particularly, many ethnic identities. While that is true to a large extent, it is not what it seems.

It certainly does seem that way. How do the Orthodox respond when someone is concerned that it is tied to national or ethnic Identity? From the outside looking in, it looks like the two often go together. As I was reading the OP of that thread, and then the answers, it just seemed to get more complicated.

notRusskiyMir · Sep 25, 2024

public hermit said:
I am curious about the thread posted by @cradleGO

Ethnic Salad of [American] Orthodoxy - EP View

People exploring Orthodoxy, especially in the US, can form the opinion that Orthodoxy is tied to an ethnic identity, more particularly, many ethnic identities. While that is true to a large extent, it is not what it seems. Converts, for one thing, make up a healthy per cent of the Faithful in...

www.christianforums.com

People exploring Orthodoxy, especially in the US, can form the opinion that Orthodoxy is tied to an ethnic identity, more particularly, many ethnic identities. While that is true to a large extent, it is not what it seems.

It certainly does seem that way. How do the Orthodox respond when someone is concerned that it is tied to national or ethnic Identity? From the outside looking in, it looks like the two often go together. As I was reading the OP of that thread, and then the answers, it just seemed to get more complicated.

I addressed that. The gist is that America is an extension of Europe via immigration. Things in Europe ARE complicated. But it is a bug not a feature.
Here in the US - New World generally - I think all thinkers know that Orthodoxy as we have it now cannot be sustained. There are not enough immigrants from Orthodox countries to sustain the ethnic orientation. Tie that with low birth rates in the US and general secularization of society, the numbers aren't there.
But there is no intent of having an ethnic basis for Orthodoxy.

ArmyMatt · Sep 25, 2024

public hermit said:
I am curious about the thread posted by @cradleGO

Ethnic Salad of [American] Orthodoxy - EP View

People exploring Orthodoxy, especially in the US, can form the opinion that Orthodoxy is tied to an ethnic identity, more particularly, many ethnic identities. While that is true to a large extent, it is not what it seems. Converts, for one thing, make up a healthy per cent of the Faithful in...

www.christianforums.com

People exploring Orthodoxy, especially in the US, can form the opinion that Orthodoxy is tied to an ethnic identity, more particularly, many ethnic identities. While that is true to a large extent, it is not what it seems.

It certainly does seem that way. How do the Orthodox respond when someone is concerned that it is tied to national or ethnic Identity? From the outside looking in, it looks like the two often go together. As I was reading the OP of that thread, and then the answers, it just seemed to get more complicated.

well, in today’s day interestingly, there are mass converts coming home who are American of all different ethnicities. in my own parish I have African Americans, a Korean immigrant, Puerto Ricans, Jews, etc. I just sent a Puerto Rican man to seminary.

nutroll · Sep 25, 2024

ArmyMatt said:
well, in today’s day interestingly, there are mass converts coming home who are American of all different ethnicities. in my own parish I have African Americans, a Korean immigrant, Puerto Ricans, Jews, etc. I just sent a Puerto Rican man to seminary.

Exactly. We are experiencing something similar. And the people coming to my parish want the kind of Orthodoxy that we practice. The Antiochians are likewise growing as are the Greeks in my area. Generally speaking of it's not Russian-ness, Greek-ness, or Antiochian-ness that they are seeking but the Church. There are wonderful things in all the jurisdictions which help people in different ways. My parishioners want to confess every week. People in other parishes can't imagine doing that. My parishioners are not superior because of it and others are not inferior, but they are different. Collapsing things into some kind of uniformity misses that there's not uniformity in the people of this country.

public hermit · Sep 25, 2024

ArmyMatt said:
well, in today’s day interestingly, there are mass converts coming home who are American of all different ethnicities. in my own parish I have African Americans, a Korean immigrant, Puerto Ricans, Jews, etc. I just sent a Puerto Rican man to seminary.

Is it just a matter of time (over time the initial, immigrant group begins to include more and more without that identity) or is it inherent to the various structures? I take it ethnophyletism is not considered a good thing.

ArmyMatt · Sep 25, 2024

nutroll said:
Exactly. We are experiencing something similar. And the people coming to my parish want the kind of Orthodoxy that we practice. The Antiochians are likewise growing as are the Greeks in my area. Generally speaking of it's not Russian-ness, Greek-ness, or Antiochian-ness that they are seeking but the Church. There are wonderful things in all the jurisdictions which help people in different ways. My parishioners want to confess every week. People in other parishes can't imagine doing that. My parishioners are not superior because of it and others are not inferior, but they are different. Collapsing things into some kind of uniformity misses that there's not uniformity in the people of this country.

exactly

ArmyMatt · Sep 25, 2024

public hermit said:
Is it just a matter of time (over time the initial, immigrant group begins to include more and more without that identity) or is it inherent to the various structures? I take it ethnophyletism is not considered a good thing.

I think it depends. I have known Greek and ROCOR parishes that were very close to their ethnic ties, but not above Orthodoxy, so they would draw in converts like crazy. a Greek Church I know had a joint Bible study for local Mennonites, and Mennonites started converting, and they kept their traditional dress, would bring their own food to coffee hour, etc.

public hermit · Sep 25, 2024

ArmyMatt said:
I think it depends. I have known Greek and ROCOR parishes that were very close to their ethnic ties, but not above Orthodoxy, so they would draw in converts like crazy. a Greek Church I know had a joint Bible study for local Mennonites, and Mennonites started converting, and they kept their traditional dress, would bring their own food to coffee hour, etc.

The Greek Orthodox (Saints Constantine and Helen Greek Orthodox Cathedral) hold the Richmond Greek Festival every year in Richmond, VA. And, it's fantastic. The Mennonites in the area have the best sandwich shops around, and lots of little towns around here have one. I'm not saying they should have a joint festival, but I would go if they did.

ArmyMatt · Sep 25, 2024

public hermit said:
The Greek Orthodox (Saints Constantine and Helen Greek Orthodox Cathedral) hold the Richmond Greek Festival every year in Richmond, VA. And, it's fantastic. The Mennonites in the area have the best sandwich shops around, and lots of little towns around here have one. I'm not saying they should have a joint festival, but I would go if they did.

maybe they will or something similar

All4Christ · Sep 26, 2024

public hermit said:
I am curious about the thread posted by @cradleGO

Ethnic Salad of [American] Orthodoxy - EP View

People exploring Orthodoxy, especially in the US, can form the opinion that Orthodoxy is tied to an ethnic identity, more particularly, many ethnic identities. While that is true to a large extent, it is not what it seems. Converts, for one thing, make up a healthy per cent of the Faithful in...

www.christianforums.com

People exploring Orthodoxy, especially in the US, can form the opinion that Orthodoxy is tied to an ethnic identity, more particularly, many ethnic identities. While that is true to a large extent, it is not what it seems.

It certainly does seem that way. How do the Orthodox respond when someone is concerned that it is tied to national or ethnic Identity? From the outside looking in, it looks like the two often go together. As I was reading the OP of that thread, and then the answers, it just seemed to get more complicated.

Not all Orthodox churches are tightly tied to ethnic identity (or perhaps a single ethnic entity). In my area, most are not. My parish (OCA) has a wide range of ethnic backgrounds.

We still have the connection to the Slovak churches. Our liturgical traditions, hymnography, are influenced by our Russian background, but our culture outside of that is a mix of everything. For example - our Pascha baskets (after our Easter, we have a sort of feast to break the fast) are not just Russian. We have Pennsylvania Dutch (my background), American style, burgers, pizza, ice cream (our deacon’s homemade ice cream is amazing), Greek, Ethiopian, and pretty much any type of food you could think of. I don’t see us as Russian - just Orthodox who live in America.

It’s very intentional that our name (Orthodox Church of America) doesn’t include Russian or Greek or anything like that. “There is neither Jew nor Greek [or any ethnicity], there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” I love it there and I don’t feel like I need to change my ethnic connections in any way to be Orthodox.

My husband is third generation Carpatho-Russian American. He is OCA now, but his grandfather was an Orthodox priest in the ACROD (American Carpatho Russian Orthodox Diocese) church. My husband’s grandfather pioneered putting together English sermons, children’s education, etc. He believed that the language needed to match the language used where the church was located.

When Carpatho-Rusyn priests came to America, they often used his English sermons while they learned English. They weren’t free from ethnicity (it was an immigrant community), but he was 100% right in stating that Orthodoxy shouldn’t be limited to ethnic individuals - but should be available to all.

notRusskiyMir · Sep 26, 2024

public hermit said:
I take it ethnophyletism is not considered a good thing.

It is a very bad thing. Just as Christianity rejected Gnosticism because one doesn't need "special knowledge" to follow God, one doesn't need a certain ethnicity to follow God, nor is one closer to God for having that ethnicity, nor is one above another for having that certain ethnicity.

public hermit · Sep 27, 2024

cradleGO said:
It is a very bad thing. Just as Christianity rejected Gnosticism because one doesn't need "special knowledge" to follow God, one doesn't need a certain ethnicity to follow God, nor is one closer to God for having that ethnicity, nor is one above another for having that certain ethnicity.

So, in principle, it is a problem. And, I seriously doubt it's a matter of the heart. In other words, I am certain the Orthodox are as welcoming to those who are "outside" just as anyone else.

Is it fair to say that there are structures in place that have their roots in ethnicity? And, perhaps, those structures no longer fit the basic principles and heart of the Church?

notRusskiyMir · Sep 28, 2024

public hermit said:
Is it fair to say that there are structures in place that have their roots in ethnicity?

Structures? What do you have in mind? I can think of a belief system active today, which might have a structural component - met in the spring, I think - but not structural per se. What's up?

Lukaris · Sep 28, 2024

The ethnic origin of a parish can always have a place in its Orthodox expression of faith if it has the great commission ( Matthew 28:16-20) as its priority.

public hermit · Sep 29, 2024

cradleGO said:
Structures? What do you have in mind? I can think of a belief system active today, which might have a structural component - met in the spring, I think - but not structural per se. What's up?

By structures, I mean the hierarchy/hierarchies. I can't claim to understand the various patriarchates and archbishoprics, but didn't those structures often originate in ethnic differences? If so, then are those differences inherent to the structure? I don't want to say it's necessary that they be inherent, but they could be and the structures could be such that they, in turn, ensure (or at least, encourage) inherence.

ArmyMatt · Sep 29, 2024

public hermit said:
those structures often originate in ethnic differences?

no, they originated in the presiding priest over a particular city or territory. so, yeah, in a sense ethnicity is tied in because ministering to a Serbian area is different than a Greek one.

notRusskiyMir · Sep 29, 2024

ArmyMatt said:
because ministering to a Serbian area is different than a Greek one.

?? Other than language, how is the ministering different?

ArmyMatt · Sep 30, 2024

cradleGO said:
?? Other than language, how is the ministering different?

uniquely Serbian customs like the Slava. how patron saints tie in to families more than individuals, etc.

notRusskiyMir · Sep 30, 2024

ArmyMatt said:
uniquely Serbian customs like the Slava. how patron saints tie in to families more than individuals, etc.

Does not meet my definition of "ministering". More like participation, which anyone could learn.

ArmyMatt · Sep 30, 2024

cradleGO said:
Does not meet my definition of "ministering". More like participation, which anyone could learn.

okay

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