Was Paul supposed to be the 12th disciple, replacing Judas?

tonychanyt · Sep 24, 2024

I don't think so. Acts 1 described the criteria for selecting a replacement:

21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”

One characteristic of a disciple was a pupil who had spent time interacting with the teacher day in day out. Paul did not fit that description. He was not a follower of Jesus during His earthly ministry.

Paul himself never labeled himself as a disciple. He called himself an apostle. 1Co 15:

9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Paul's role was different from that of the Twelve. He was primarily an apostle to the Gentiles, while the Twelve initially focused on ministry to the Jews.

Was Paul supposed to be the 12th disciple, replacing Judas?

No. From Peter et al. 's point of view, Paul was never a pupil/apprentice of Jesus. Paul wasn't a disciple in that sense. From Paul's perspective, his ministry targeted the Gentiles, while the Twelve focused on the Jews.

All Becomes New · Sep 24, 2024

It is very peculiar that God chose 13 men especially. I have not figured out why God has done this. I have no idea. 12 makes a lot of sense. You could make the argument for 14 (2X7). But 13? I have no idea how to parse that.

tonychanyt · Sep 24, 2024

All Becomes New said:
It is very peculiar that God chose 13 men especially.

verse? Note the bold

Daniel Marsh · Sep 24, 2024

Acts 1:
14 The apostles were all together. They were constantly praying with the same purpose. Some women, Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers were there with the apostles.

15 After a few days there was a meeting of the believers. There were about 120 of them. Peter stood up and said, 16-17 “Brothers and sisters, in the Scriptures the Holy Spirit said through David that something must happen. He was talking about Judas, one of our own group. Judas served together with us. The Spirit said that Judas would lead men to arrest Jesus.”

18 (Judas was paid money for doing this. His money was used to buy him a field. But he fell on his head, his body broke open, and all his intestines poured out. 19 And all the people of Jerusalem learned about this. That is why they named that field Akeldama, which in their language means “field of blood.”)

20 Peter said, “In the book of Psalms, this is written about Judas:

‘People should not go near his land;
no one should live there.’

And it is also written:

‘Let another man have his work.’

21-22 “So now another man must join us and be a witness of Jesus’ resurrection. He must be one of those men who were part of our group during all the time the Lord Jesus was with us. He must have been with us from the time John was baptizing people until the day when Jesus was carried up from us into heaven.”

23 They put two men before the group. One was Joseph Barsabbas. He was also called Justus. The other man was Matthias. 24-25 They prayed, “Lord, you know the minds of all people. Show us which one of these two men you choose to do this work. Judas turned away from it and went where he belongs. Lord, show us which man should take his place as an apostle!” 26 Then they used lots to choose one of the two men. The lots showed that Matthias was the one the Lord wanted. So he became an apostle with the other eleven.

All Becomes New · Sep 24, 2024

tonychanyt said:
verse? Note the bold

Prominent Apostles. Paul talks about "super Apostles," suggesting that there were even tiers of different apostles.

Grafted In · Sep 24, 2024

Odd in a way that Peter is the focus of a major world denomination and not Paul.

RDKirk · Sep 24, 2024

All Becomes New said:
It is very peculiar that God chose 13 men especially. I have not figured out why God has done this. I have no idea. 12 makes a lot of sense. You could make the argument for 14 (2X7). But 13? I have no idea how to parse that.

Why does 12 or even 14 particularly "make a lot of sense?"

RDKirk · Sep 24, 2024

All Becomes New said:
Prominent Apostles. Paul talks about "super Apostles," suggesting that there were even tiers of different apostles.

I think Paul was being sarcastic.

All Becomes New · Sep 24, 2024

RDKirk said:
Why does 12 or even 14 particularly "make a lot of sense?"

Twelve tribes of Israel. For 14, it is that seven is considered the number of completion, and two being the number of witnesses. Not seeing any symbolism in 13.

Daniel9v9 · Sep 25, 2024

I've heard this suggested before and I've been thinking about it myself, but I reckon not. The reason is that Acts 1 gives a very narrow requirement for the office of the twelve. He had to be a disciple of Jesus from the baptism of John. Paul did witness the resurrection at his conversion, but he didn't follow Jesus as He, as Acts 1 says, "went in and out among us".

However, in Acts 13, we learn that the Holy Spirit set apart two more to preach: Barnabas and Paul (Saul). And we can know from Acts 9:15; Romans 11:13; Ephesians 3:1; Galatians 2:1-10 etc. that this was a ministry to the Gentiles, whereas the twelve were for the Jews.

1 Corinthians 15:3-11 is also very interesting. Jesus appears to Peter, then to the twelve (including Peter again), then to more than five hundred, then to James (James the Just, the brother of Jesus, who was granted repentance and faith and would preside over the Jerusalem church), then to all the apostles (apostles in a broad sense. For example, Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts 14:14), and then finally to Paul.

So, there's more going on than the twelve. We have the twelve who followed Jesus in His ministry, and of those, Peter and John are called "pillars" along with James (the brother of Jesus). Then we have Barnabas and Paul who were set apart for the Gentiles. Then there are other workers also called by the Holy Spirit. So my view is that it may be preferable to receive Acts 1 as being in accordance with the will of the Holy Spirit, and simply rejoice in that the mission of God is very rich and multifaceted. At least that's my 2c!

RDKirk · Sep 25, 2024

All Becomes New said:
Twelve tribes of Israel. For 14, it is that seven is considered the number of completion, and two being the number of witnesses. Not seeing any symbolism in 13.

You are supposing that God is an inveterate numerologist. There need not be symbolism in every number of everything specified in scripture.

RDKirk · Sep 25, 2024

Daniel9v9 said:
I've heard this suggested before and I've been thinking about it myself, but I reckon not. The reason is that Acts 1 gives a very narrow requirement for the office of the twelve. He had to be a disciple of Jesus from the baptism of John. Paul did witness the resurrection at his conversion, but he didn't follow Jesus as He, as Acts 1 says, "went in and out among us".

However, in Acts 13, we learn that the Holy Spirit set apart two more to preach: Barnabas and Paul (Saul). And we can know from Acts 9:15; Romans 11:13; Ephesians 3:1; Galatians 2:1-10 etc. that this was a ministry to the Gentiles, whereas the twelve were for the Jews.

1 Corinthians 15:3-11 is also very interesting. Jesus appears to Peter, then to the twelve (including Peter again), then to more than five hundred, then to James (James the Just, the brother of Jesus, who was granted repentance and faith and would preside over the Jerusalem church), then to all the apostles (apostles in a broad sense. For example, Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts 14:14), and then finally to Paul.

So, there's more going on than the twelve. We have the twelve who followed Jesus in His ministry, and of those, Peter and John are called "pillars" along with James (the brother of Jesus). Then we have Barnabas and Paul who were set apart for the Gentiles. Then there are other workers also called by the Holy Spirit. So my view is that it may be preferable to receive Acts 1 as being in accordance with the will of the Holy Spirit, and simply rejoice in that the mission of God is very rich and multifaceted. At least that's my 2c!

There is also later Apollos who was also recognized as an apostle.

tonychanyt · Sep 25, 2024

All Becomes New said:
Prominent Apostles. Paul talks about "super Apostles," suggesting that there were even tiers of different apostles.

This is how to do referencing and quotation in a scholarly manner:

Display and indent the relevant text.
Selectively bold the particular keywords that are important to your point. There is no need to bold the entire sentence. Have a laser-sharp focus.

I do this for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee it will sharpen your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it. I prefer to debate with people who do.

All Becomes New said:
It is very peculiar that God chose 13 men especially.

Can you cite a verse to support your "13"? This is the 2nd time I have asked.

paullara · Sep 29, 2024

All Becomes New said:
It is very peculiar that God chose 13 men especially. I have not figured out why God has done this. I have no idea. 12 makes a lot of sense. You could make the argument for 14 (2X7). But 13? I have no idea how to parse that.

Remember that Jesus told his Apostles to "..stay in Jerusalem until they were clothed with power from on high." (Acts 1:4) He did not tell them to build a church, start a feeding program, or even replace Judas. When Jesus says to wait, then just wait. The Holy Spirit will take care of Judas' replacement in his time. We must be careful to not get too far ahead of God.

paullara · Sep 29, 2024

tonychanyt said:
I don't think so. Acts 1 described the criteria for selecting a replacement:

One characteristic of a disciple was a pupil who had spent time interacting with the teacher day in day out. Paul did not fit that description. He was not a follower of Jesus during His earthly ministry.

Paul himself never labeled himself as a disciple. He called himself an apostle. 1Co 15:

Paul's role was different from that of the Twelve. He was primarily an apostle to the Gentiles, while the Twelve initially focused on ministry to the Jews.

Was Paul supposed to be the 12th disciple, replacing Judas?

No. From Peter et al. 's point of view, Paul was never a pupil/apprentice of Jesus. Paul wasn't a disciple in that sense. From Paul's perspective, his ministry targeted the Gentiles, while the Twelve focused on the Jews.

I hope my first answer was helpful

tonychanyt · Sep 30, 2024

paullara said:
He did not tell them to build a church

And therefore, they should not build a church?

paullara · Sep 30, 2024

paullara said:
Remember that Jesus told his Apostles to "..stay in Jerusalem until they were clothed with power from on high." (Acts 1:4) He did not tell them to build a church, start a feeding program, or even replace Judas. When Jesus says to wait, then just wait. The Holy Spirit will take care of Judas' replacement in his time. We must be careful to not get too far ahead of God.

The apostles will have plenty of time to build and plant churches. There is a time to build, and there is a time to wait. I have found the waiting part a little difficult...that's just me. Thanks for the reply.

Guojing · Oct 3, 2024

paullara said:
Remember that Jesus told his Apostles to "..stay in Jerusalem until they were clothed with power from on high." (Acts 1:4) He did not tell them to build a church, start a feeding program, or even replace Judas. When Jesus says to wait, then just wait. The Holy Spirit will take care of Judas' replacement in his time. We must be careful to not get too far ahead of God.

Basically, you are saying Paul was supposed to replace Judas?

paullara · Nov 10, 2024

Guojing said:
Basically, you are saying Paul was supposed to replace Judas?

Yes, that is what I am saying. If you are interested, I will give you the reasons. Please think on this: Do you know of any church that uses the drawing of straws today? Why Not?

paullara · Nov 14, 2024

tonychanyt said:
I don't think so. Acts 1 described the criteria for selecting a replacement:

One characteristic of a disciple was a pupil who had spent time interacting with the teacher day in day out. Paul did not fit that description. He was not a follower of Jesus during His earthly ministry.

Paul himself never labeled himself as a disciple. He called himself an apostle. 1Co 15:

Paul's role was different from that of the Twelve. He was primarily an apostle to the Gentiles, while the Twelve initially focused on ministry to the Jews.

Was Paul supposed to be the 12th disciple, replacing Judas?

No. From Peter et al. 's point of view, Paul was never a pupil/apprentice of Jesus. Paul wasn't a disciple in that sense. From Paul's perspective, his ministry targeted the Gentiles, while the Twelve focused on the Jews.

What separated Jesus' disciples from others who followed Jesus around was the fact that the disciples were called. In 1 Corinthians, chapter 1, Paul describes himself as one "called to be an apostle by the will of God."
One of my instructors told me that Paul used the term, by the will of God, as a way to relay the idea that the disciples choice of Matthias was not by the will of God, hence, the drawing of straws.

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was having trouble with the site.

We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Was Paul supposed to be the 12th disciple, replacing Judas?

24/7 Christian

Slave to Christ

24/7 Christian

Well-Known Member

Slave to Christ

Newbie

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Slave to Christ

†

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

24/7 Christian

Member

Member

24/7 Christian

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Similar threads