Was the book of Job the first book of the Bible before Genesis

Diamond72 said:

Bible college teaches if they had a name they were a real person.

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that's not much better than saying sunday school teaches they were all factual people (it's not a very critical answer). Bible colleges teach within a scriptural vacuum, their goals are not to challenge scripture but to understand how to study it for spiritual benefit.

I'm not at odds with the idea of whether these characters are real or not but know that under academic scrutiny they fall short of being credible. the further removed an account is from when it finally was written down the less credible it becomes in terms of its factual representation (not embedded theological truth).

Earlier accounts like in Genesis are survived through oral tradition and since pre-Moses there was no authoritative version of God or system of how to follow him then it's hard to know what the motivation was with these surviving oral accounts. Sure there are the accounts of Abraham but this is a very primitive version of Judaism with a law centred around circumcision practices, but there are still no established priests, temples and sacrifice is not that defined plus in practice not a lot of instruction for daily living or knowledge of God, all things essential for an established religion. I'm sure each household or "tent" had wide differences of these accounts with a lot of influences from surrounding cultures. Moses would have a task to establish unity with all these differences.

We know during the exodus the Hebrews had some very pagan mindsets (such as the event with the golden calf under the direction of the high priest of God) so their understanding or commitment to God was not that deep but this is the setting Moses comes in setting in motion an ordained and authorised narrative and a system of law. Did he have to reshape or "de-paganise" these accounts to align with monotheism to establish foundation theological concepts? If so how are the characters involved rehaped with it? In the end, the theological concepts are more important than if the person was real or not, in particular, with these early accounts. The second temple era is a far more credible time for scripture but credibility fades the older it gets and Genesis in practice is prehistory for the Hebrews so it's even worse.

the uncompromised truth is the gospel, that Jesus Christ came to earth, led a sinless life, died on a cross for our sins and rose again 3 days later so that we may have a restored relationship with God. And this is the inerrant message through out scripture, If Adam however was a real person or not doesn't add or remove anything from the truth of the gospel. Adam's account is used to point to Christ and give glory to God outside of that his factual role doesn't have value either way regardless of what a bible college may teach.

here is another video from the same Youtuber as the last one I posted that talks about the historical accuracy of Moses and the events surrounding him plus how we can understand and make sense of them in a faith-based context.

Well, Adam didn't write on a scroll. And we know bibles were written from scrolls. So Genesis is an account written later, about creation. Additionally, original writings in general were not in book order, as if a book. But rather continuous writings, in run on fashion. Even the early bibles were like this, later, books and chapters and verses got names and order and verse numbers. That was accomplished at various council meetings. Jesus had come and gone from earth long since.

Dave G. said:

Well, Adam didn't write on a scroll. And we know bibles were written from scrolls. So Genesis is an account written later, about creation. Additionally, original writings in general were not in book order, as if a book. But rather continuous writings, in run on fashion. Even the early bibles were like this, later, books and chapters and verses got names and order and verse numbers. That was accomplished at various council meetings. Jesus had come and gone from earth long since.

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From Adam to Moses it's 2500 years if we are to say Moses wrote it down, Adam's account would be survived by oral tradition and not by written record before it was finally committed to pen how that oral tradition was shaped is not clear. The creation account wasn't witnessed by any human (since they weren't created yet) Since scripture doesn't reveal to us how much Adam knew regarding the events of creation we can't just say it's from Adam. We can say the account has a source directly from God but if also through survived oral traditions when the tradition started and how long it was passed on, it would be unknown not to mention how it was shaped into what we see now. Broadly speaking I don't approach these accounts as historically accurate, officially I'm agnostic to their literalness, but I don't see a literal reading of the text beneficial to their message. For example, Gen 1 establishes an authoritative creation account under monotheism to a Hebrews with very pagan minsets, it also has a salvation message woven in it with light being spoken into darkness which is spoken of in 2 Cor 4:6 as well as foreshadowing Christ as that sent light. Those messages to me are more important than what actually happened and it's the messages that I study. I however find studying the historical accuracy to be distracting from these goals of the accounts.

there also wasn't continuous writing from Genesis on... instead, written on separate scrolls and each complete scroll correlates to a book. chapter, verse and headings come later but no council decided the book boundaries, they were already established via their scroll. Christian names of the books are usually just the Greek counterpart of the Hebrew name which were established with their scroll.

Apple Sky said:

Unlike Genesis however, we don’t know the author of Job and we are not sure exactly when this book was written, though some scholars place this book as written possibly up to 400 years before Genesis.

The reason Job is considered to potentially be the oldest book in the Bible is also because of some of the content within it such as;


Job 1:6 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. “Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan. “From roaming through the earth,” he replied, “and walking back and forth in it.

From this passage we can see that Satan has not yet been exiled from heaven to earth.

Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This passage tells us who the sons of God are, they are the angels. Now go to Genesis 6:1 ;

Now when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.

So we know now that it was angels who came down to earth to mate with women.

Also in Job we have the mention of Leviathan & Behemoth & Satan had God's permission to test Job

So was there a time before Genesis ?

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I do not agree with much of what you are saying but I lean towards Job being written (or at least the story existing) prior to the Pentateuch. It is clear that Job lived in the age of the patriarchs by the way he made sacrificial offerings for himself and his family (Job 1:5). He lived perhaps shortly after the flood and was likely a contemporary of Abraham. It could have been written by Job himself or who knows? I have heard stories of cuneiform fragments discovered that give evidence of this but not sure of any verifiable or credible source for this. The story of Job may have also been passed down as "folklore" along with the historical accounts of creation, the fall, the flood, and the Abrahamic covenant.

Job 38:7 which you have cited, leads me to believe that God created the heavenly hosts (Angelic beings, cherubim, seraphim, Etc.) prior to his creation of the universe. This was part of the first question God asked of Job - "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" (38:4)

Apple Sky said:

Ah yes the gap theory, I find this very interesting.

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I reject the "Gap Theory" and am not sure were you are getting this from. All I am saying is that the heavenly beings were present and witnessing the creation of the heavens and earth. Perhaps God created them moments before? We cannot say for sure because the scriptures are not clear beyond this. I know the gap theorists have their own views and use passages from Ezekiel and so forth to arrive at their position but I will let them make their own argument.

Gen 1:1 says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Beginning of what? God IS in the beginning and not from the beginning. He is eternally existent and is therefore timeless and ageless. I would say that the beginning of time (measurable time as we know it) is marked by the very moment that something is created and the dimensions of time and space become a necessary reality.

Hi
Dose any of what God created before the flood matter it was all destroyed in the flood except for Noah and everything on the ark with these God began a new creation it is this creation we should be studying it is based on the creation account in Genesis the end result man in the image of God that man is Jesus Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

davetaff said:

Hi
Dose any of what God created before the flood matter it was all destroyed in the flood except for Noah and everything on the ark with these God began a new creation it is this creation we should be studying it is based on the creation account in Genesis the end result man in the image of God that man is Jesus Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

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You keep saying that God began a new creation after the flood, but where do we read that? He didn't create Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives, or the animals that had been on the ark. They already existed. He said to Noah:

“"Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that [is] with you: birds and cattle and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth."” (Ge 8:17 NKJV)

“So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.” (Ge 9:1 NKJV)

Besides that, back in Adam's time, God had already promised the Saviour. God said the the serpent/Satan:

“And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."” (Ge 3:15 NKJV)

It's interesting that the human genealogy of Jesus given by Luke goes back, not to Noah, but to Adam. It ends:

“[the son] of Enos, [the son] of Seth, [the son] of Adam, [the son] of God.” (Lu 3:38 NKJV)

David Lamb said:

You keep saying that God began a new creation after the flood, but where do we read that? He didn't create Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives, or the animals that had been on the ark. They already existed. He said to Noah:

“"Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that [is] with you: birds and cattle and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth."” (Ge 8:17 NKJV)

“So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.” (Ge 9:1 NKJV)

Besides that, back in Adam's time, God had already promised the Saviour. God said the the serpent/Satan:

“And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."” (Ge 3:15 NKJV)

It's interesting that the human genealogy of Jesus given by Luke goes back, not to Noah, but to Adam. It ends:

“[the son] of Enos, [the son] of Seth, [the son] of Adam, [the son] of God.” (Lu 3:38 NKJV)

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Hi David
Thank you for your reply we know in Christ we are a new creation so it stands to reason there must be an old creation and that creation is the creation of Israel who is the creation of man ( mankind) in the image of God in the flesh who rejected Christ it was the Christ began a new creation with the gentiles.
God sent Noah and everything on the ark into the world to fill the world when the human race had increased sufficiently God began the creation of man in his image with Abraham im sure you know the story.
The only thing missing on the Ark was Adam man in the image of God he was destroyed in the flood so God set about rectifying than the end result was Jesus Christ and his body of believers this is mankind in the image of God this body would be divided up we would have God the Father the head of all things we would have Jesus Christ Gods high priest through all things were created we would have the bride of Christ his church then we would have the little children the multitude Christ would present to the Father.
yes God has promised a Saviour all through scripture and he has kept that promis never forgetting all Israel shall be saved
.was the first Adam created in the same way as the last Adam we know the angels of God cohabited with the human women were these women part of the body of Adam this is the reason the first Adam had to be destroyed.

Love and Peace
Dave

davetaff said:

Hi David
Thank you for your reply we know in Christ we are a new creation so it stands to reason there must be an old creation and that creation is the creation of Israel who is the creation of man ( mankind) in the image of God in the flesh who rejected Christ it was the Christ began a new creation with the gentiles.
God sent Noah and everything on the ark into the world to fill the world when the human race had increased sufficiently God began the creation of man in his image with Abraham im sure you know the story.
The only thing missing on the Ark was Adam man in the image of God he was destroyed in the flood so God set about rectifying than the end result was Jesus Christ and his body of believers this is mankind in the image of God this body would be divided up we would have God the Father the head of all things we would have Jesus Christ Gods high priest through all things were created we would have the bride of Christ his church then we would have the little children the multitude Christ would present to the Father.
yes God has promised a Saviour all through scripture and he has kept that promis never forgetting all Israel shall be saved
.was the first Adam created in the same way as the last Adam we know the angels of God cohabited with the human women were these women part of the body of Adam this is the reason the first Adam had to be destroyed.

Love and Peace
Dave

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Thanks for replying, Dave. Yes, I agree that every saved sinner is a new creation. This is regardless of whether they are physically descended from Abraham. I don't believe that this started when God saw that the human race had increased sufficiently after the Flood. Think of Hebrews 11. It lists people of faith, and it starts before Abraham:

“4 ¶ By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.” (Heb 11:4-7 NKJV)

Those were all before Abraham.

David Lamb said:

Thanks for replying, Dave. Yes, I agree that every saved sinner is a new creation. This is regardless of whether they are physically descended from Abraham. I don't believe that this started when God saw that the human race had increased sufficiently after the Flood. Think of Hebrews 11. It lists people of faith, and it starts before Abraham:

“4 ¶ By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.” (Heb 11:4-7 NKJV)

Those were all before Abraham.

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Thank you David for your reply can't argue with that but what I was doing was to point out Gods creation of Israel which began with Abraham.
That there have been men of faith all through scripture is not in doubt but there has not been many men in the image of God there was the first Adam there was Israel then there is the last Adam Jesus Christ they were all created by God they are unique.

Love and Peace
Dave

davetaff said:

Thank you David for your reply can't argue with that but what I was doing was to point out Gods creation of Israel which began with Abraham.
That there have been men of faith all through scripture is not in doubt but there has not been many men in the image of God there was the first Adam there was Israel then there is the last Adam Jesus Christ they were all created by God they are unique.

Love and Peace
Dave

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Thanks again Dave. Israel was chosen by God, out of the nations of the earth, not newly created. Speaking to Israel, God said:

“7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 "but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.” (De 7:7-8 NKJV)

David Lamb said:

Thanks again Dave. Israel was chosen by God, out of the nations of the earth, not newly created. Speaking to Israel, God said:

“7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 "but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.” (De 7:7-8 NKJV)

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Hi David
Thank you for your post but Israel was created by God and sent into Egypt were they grew into a nation then God chose them and took them out of Egypt to place them in the promised land this is a mirror image of what was to happen later when Christ would take a multitude of believers out of the world to place us in the new world that God will create after the millennium.

Love and Peace
Dave

davetaff said:

Hi David
Thank you for your post but Israel was created by God and sent into Egypt were they grew into a nation then God chose them and took them out of Egypt to place them in the promised land this is a mirror image of what was to happen later when Christ would take a multitude of believers out of the world to place us in the new world that God will create after the millennium.

Love and Peace
Dave

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Hi again Dave,

You still don't give any bible reference for Israel being created. They were descended from Jacob, Isaac and Abraham, and Genesis tells us that Abraham's father was Terah. Perhaps you are using "created" in a different sense to the way I understand it, "brought into existence."

Hi Da

David Lamb said:

Hi again Dave,

You still don't give any bible reference for Israel being created. They were descended from Jacob, Isaac and Abraham, and Genesis tells us that Abraham's father was Terah. Perhaps you are using "created" in a different sense to the way I understand it, "brought into existence."

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Hi David
Thank you for your reply will the following do

Isaiah 43 1
Isaiah 43 15


Sorry my copy and paste is not working

Love and Peace
Dave

davetaff said:

Hi Da

Hi David
Thank you for your reply will the following do

Isaiah 43 1
Isaiah 43 15


Sorry my copy and paste is not working

Love and Peace
Dave

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Thanks. Yes, those verses do say that God is the Creator, in the same way as He is the Creator of us all. God didn't create Abraham in the same way that He created Adam - Abraham had an earthly mother and father. The same is true of Isaac and Jacob. I'm fairly sure you are not saying that God created Israel out of newly-created people.

Hi David
I don't understand why you don't believe what God says if he says he created Israel then that's what he did we have to believe the scriptures.
We are not talking about Abraham we are talking about the nation of Israel Gods son.
In another place God calls Israel his son who he calls out of Egypt as he dose is other son Jesus Christ so Israel is Gods son and as such would be the image of his Father

Hosea 11:1

Love and Peace
Dave

davetaff said:

Hi David
I don't understand why you don't believe what God says if he says he created Israel then that's what he did we have to believe the scriptures.
In another place God calls Israel his son who he calls out of Egypt as he dose is other son Jesus Christ so Israel is Gods son and as such would be the image of his Father

Hosea 11:1

Love and Peace
Dave

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I do believe what God says, it's just that I think I have misunderstood what you have been arguing all along. I had thought that you were saying that God created the nation of Israel in the same sense that He had previously created Adam, in other words creating new people to form the nation. I apologise for this misunderstanding, and for thus wasting your time. Thanks again.

David Lamb said:

I do believe what God says, it's just that I think I have misunderstood what you have been arguing all along. I had thought that you were saying that God created the nation of Israel in the same sense that He had previously created Adam, in other words creating new people to form the nation. I apologise for this misunderstanding, and for thus wasting your time. Thanks again.

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Hi David
Thank you for your reply no need to apologise most probably the way I write plus my interpritation of scripture is different to most maybe all denominations but its based on the creation account in Genesis because God tells he tells us the end from the beginning the end is man in the image of God that man is Jesus Christ at his second comming.
So Gods object is to create mankind in his image and the heavenly host there has been 3 men created in Gods image the first Adam Israel and the last Adam Jesus Christ when he returns to gather the body of believers to present to the Father.

Love and Peace
Dave