Southern Baptist Convention doesn't vote to expel churches with female pastors , but does vote to condemn IVF

essentialsaltes · Jun 12, 2024

Southern Baptists narrowly reject formal ban on churches with any women pastors

The vote received support from 61% of the delegates but failed to get the required two-thirds supermajority. The action reversed a preliminary vote last year in favor of the official ban.

But it still leaves the Southern Baptist Convention with its official doctrinal statement saying the office of pastor is limited to men.

Opponents noted that the SBC already can oust churches that assert women can serve as pastors — as it did last year and again Tuesday night.

frienden thalord · Jun 12, 2024

RileyG said:
There’s been a bunch of schisms in the SBC affiliation, along with other Baptist groups.

They have a right to say no if that’s their theology.

Of course with most Christian sects it’s just divide, divide, divide, sadly.

Thus, there are 60,000+ different sects today.

Hello riley . what was the one thing paul warned about to the churches .
And what was his advice to the church about those who caused divisions that were contrary , NOT to UNITY and getting along ,
but rather to the ORIGINAL DOCTRINE ye learned . He said mark them and Avoid them .
The problem within a lot of places is , so many are now over looking SOUND doctrine and have rather
turned to just trying to find common ground . What did paul , what did peter say about women leaders .
And take note they used BIBLICAL reasons . SEe we have been taught that that was all about the age they lived in .
BUT they both USED BIBLICAL examples as to WHY they did as they did .

FireDragon76 · Jun 12, 2024

RileyG said:
Depends what you mean by that. But overall the Abrahamic faiths are patriarchal, yes.

The early Church likely had women as prophets and preachers, perhaps even elders. We know for sure they served as evangelists and deacons. Alot of these terms may have been used interchangeably, as well, and may not have been fixed hierarchical offices.

The Radical Reformation, especially among the Spiritualists, has always had groups like the Quakers and Shakers that believed in the equality of men and women, including the right to preach.

essentialsaltes · Jun 13, 2024

Southern Baptists formally oppose in vitro fertilization

Delegates in Indianapolis voted for the resolution opposing IVF, which also urged the denomination’s members “to advocate for the government to restrain actions inconsistent with the dignity and value of every human being, which necessarily includes frozen embryonic human beings.”

Jason Thacker, an adviser to the Southern Baptist Resolutions Committee, said at a news conference Wednesday that the resolution “unequivocally” affirmed the Alabama Supreme Court’s position that embryos are considered children, regardless of location.

The SBC resolution argued that “though all children are to be fully respected and protected, not all technological means of assisting human reproduction are equally God-honoring or morally justified.”

9Rock9 · Jun 13, 2024

PloverWing said:
It makes me sad, but it's consistent with the direction the SBC has been taking in the last few decades. Now that they have added a male-only-ministry clause to their statement of faith, I'm not surprised that they're expelling congregations who disagree.

The theology of the denominational leadership is to exclude women. The theology of the congregations is more diverse, although it's becoming less diverse as congregations are expelled or choose to leave. The Southern Baptists aren't supposed to be top-down in their decision-making structure -- formally, they're democratic and congregational -- but power-plays can happen in any large group, and here we are.

Tbf, the SBC is technically respecting the congregational autonomy of the dissenting churches. The denomination has no authority over the the local church when it comes to ordination, administering ordinances, nor what a church is allowed to teach.

All it can do is expel churches that go against the convictions of the denomination. The expelled church can still have women pastors and officiate gay weddings, and keep their property. They just no longer receive financial support from the SBC.

Unlike in a lot of other denominations, SBC leaders aren't gonna confiscate property nor fire ministers of that church. It's more "you do you, but you'll have to explain yourself to God on Judgment Day."

Just like the churches in the SBC, the conventions are also autonomous and can decide which churches they want to affiliate with.

Elliewaves · Jun 13, 2024

It's interesting to note that Mike Pence was in attendance at the SBC. He and his wife concieved their son through IVF. He has been open about that and supportive of IVF but did not speak about it at the SBC.

RileyG · Jun 14, 2024

Elliewaves said:
It's interesting to note that Mike Pence was in attendance at the SBC. He and his wife concieved their son through IVF. He has been open about that and supportive of IVF but did not speak about it at the SBC.

Maybe he picks and chooses what doctrines you believe in? Color me shocked.

FireDragon76 · Jun 15, 2024

RileyG said:
Maybe he picks and chooses what doctrines you believe in? Color me shocked.

As far as I know, Pence is a member of the Evangelical Covenant Church.

RileyG · Jun 15, 2024

FireDragon76 said:
As far as I know, Pence is a member of the Evangelical Covenant Church.

Oh.

That’s a very, very small denomination.
Less than 1,000,000 members.

The same church that was across from my childhood home. We knew the pastor, his wife, and children. It was a very, very small town.

FireDragon76 · Jun 15, 2024

RileyG said:
Oh.

That’s a very, very small denomination.
Less than 1,000,000 members.

The same church that was across from my childhood home. We knew the pastor, his wife, and children. It was a very, very small town.

It's even smaller than that. Only about 180,000 members. Smaller than even most Mainline Protestant churches. But part of a larger Scandinavian Pietist/Baptist tradition that has blended somewhat into American Evangelicalism.

I don't approve of in vitro fertilization or surrogacy, but I also realize I'm at odds with the vast majority of Americans., who seem to be fine with the commodification of human life (and hardly surprising, given the logic of capitalism). I'm not surprised there's alot of seeming hypocrisy coming from Evangelicals on the issue. It's not so much hypocrisy as having no philosophical basis for their ethics.

Hazelelponi · Jun 15, 2024

essentialsaltes said:
Southern Baptists formally oppose in vitro fertilization
Delegates in Indianapolis voted for the resolution opposing IVF, which also urged the denomination’s members “to advocate for the government to restrain actions inconsistent with the dignity and value of every human being, which necessarily includes frozen embryonic human beings.”

Jason Thacker, an adviser to the Southern Baptist Resolutions Committee, said at a news conference Wednesday that the resolution “unequivocally” affirmed the Alabama Supreme Court’s position that embryos are considered children, regardless of location.

The SBC resolution argued that “though all children are to be fully respected and protected, not all technological means of assisting human reproduction are equally God-honoring or morally justified.”

That's different. If they are taking that stance then I wonder what their official stance is on birth control?

It seems to me if you're going this extreme you're stance would then also be against birth control.

I'm interested in their scriptural arguments... Do you have a link to that?

Hazelelponi · Jun 15, 2024

FireDragon76 said:
I don't approve of in vitro fertilization or surrogacy, but I also realize I'm at odds with the vast majority of Americans.

I've actually never much considered it in light of Scripture myself. It's just kinda something wealthier Americans do who can't conceive naturally for whatever reason. So it's just not something most people give much thought to.

PloverWing · Jun 15, 2024

Hazelelponi said:
That's different. If they are taking that stance then I wonder what their official stance is on birth control?

It seems to me if you're going this extreme you're stance would then also be against birth control.

I'm interested in their scriptural arguments... Do you have a link to that?

When I was a Southern Baptist, the use of contraception was left to the discretion of the couple. In general, for most things on which Scripture does not clearly speak, Baptists see individuals as having liberty in those choices.

However: In the 1990s, the Southern Baptists began taking the position that life begins at conception and that all termination of pregnancy (even before implantation) was sinful. This view leads to an avoidance of contraceptive methods that interfere with implantation, such as IUDs. Logically, this also leads to opposing IVF, on the grounds that multiple embryos are created, but some embryos will be discarded without ever being implanted.

To my knowledge, contraceptive methods such as condoms are still acceptable to Southern Baptists.

Here are a couple of sources that I used to supplement my memory:

Southern Baptist attitudes changing on birth control

Questions about the morality of birth control increasingly appear in columns and blogs by SBC ethicists and ministers.

www.baptiststandard.com

Can Christians Use Birth Control?

The effective separation of sex from procreation may be one of the most important defining marks of our age--and one of the most ominous This awareness is spreading among American evangelicals, and ...

www.christianpost.com

essentialsaltes · Aug 30, 2024

Trump says insurance or government should pay for IVF

Getting whiplash here with people suddenly taking all sorts of views on a routine medical procedure. Ban it. Condemn it. Pay for it on the taxpayer dime.

okay · Aug 30, 2024

Of course Trump isn’t part of the SBC. Even if he were, I suspect there are millions of congregants in the SBC who are for IVF.

At this point I am just not sure whether I should believe anything Trump says, anyway.

RileyG · Aug 30, 2024

essentialsaltes said:
Trump says insurance or government should pay for IVF
Getting whiplash here with people suddenly taking all sorts of views on a routine medical procedure. Ban it. Condemn it. Pay for it on the taxpayer dime.

Are Trump and the SBC related? I think they're too conservative for him.

essentialsaltes · Aug 30, 2024

RileyG said:
Are Trump and the SBC related?

Nope. I just think it's strange that a medical procedure that's been pretty uncontroversial for 40 years... and suddenly different groups are coming out to either ban it, or to have the government pay for it.

RileyG · Aug 30, 2024

essentialsaltes said:
Nope. I just think it's strange that a medical procedure that's been pretty uncontroversial for 40 years... and suddenly different groups are coming out to either ban it, or to have the government pay for it.

Ok. That’s fair.

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