Why is Jesus saying only God (the Father) is good?

zoidar · Aug 7, 2024

The Liturgist said:
It violates the Nicene Creed and is therefore not Christian.

I asked Chatbot:

"Does saying all good originates from the Father go against the Creed?"

No, saying that all good originates from the Father does not go against the Nicene Creed. This statement aligns with the theological framework of the Trinity and the language used in the Creed. Here’s why:

Affirmation of the Father’s Role
The Nicene Creed begins with a strong affirmation of the Father as the source of creation and the origin within the Trinity:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible."

Eternal Generation and Procession
The Creed articulates the relationship within the Trinity by acknowledging the roles of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father."

"And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]."

Understanding “Originates”
The idea that all good originates from the Father fits within the framework of:

Eternal Generation: The Son is eternally begotten of the Father, meaning the Father is the source within the divine relationship, but this does not imply any temporal beginning or inequality in essence.

Procession: The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (and the Son, in the Western Church’s understanding), indicating a relational origin within the Godhead.

Divine Economy and Distinctions

Role of the Father: The Father is often seen as the source or principle within the Trinity, the one from whom the Son is begotten and from whom the Spirit proceeds. This reflects the relational roles without implying any inferiority of the Son or the Spirit.

Unity of Essence: All three persons of the Trinity share the same divine essence (homoousios), meaning they are equally God. The origin language pertains to their relational distinctions, not their essence or divine nature.

Theological Consistency

Monotheism: The Creed maintains a strict monotheism, affirming one God in three persons. Recognizing the Father as the source of all good does not detract from the divinity of the Son or the Spirit.

Function and Revelation: In the economy of salvation and revelation, the Father is often depicted as the source, the Son as the incarnate revealer and redeemer, and the Spirit as the sanctifier and life-giver. This functional distinction supports the understanding of the Father as the origin of all good.

Conclusion
Saying that all good originates from the Father is consistent with the Nicene Creed and classical Christian doctrine. It respects the relational roles within the Trinity while maintaining the essential unity and equality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Creed’s language and structure support the understanding that the Father, as the source, does not imply any inequality but rather an order within the unified divine essence.

The Liturgist · Aug 7, 2024

Since ChatBot sites no sources, Scriptural or Patristic, to reinforce its point, I’m going to say this is proof of the dangers of using AI for theological research.

Now, the actual truth of the matter has to do with the origin of uncreated grace as an uncreated energy of God, and also the fact that God the Holy Trinity is All Good as a fundamental element of the Divine Nature. Thus in Orthodoxy He is referred to as the “All Good, Holy, Life-giving and Consubstantial Trinity.”

The trick of this question has to do with what is meant by originate and also with the reciprocity of goodness. It’s not a case where, for example, with the uncreated energies of God, we can say these come from the Divine Essence of the Father of which the Son and Holy Trinity partake, according to Orthodox theology.

So really, it depends on how we are using “originate.” I instinctively reacted against your question, but I realize that you, like me, are a Nicene Christian searching for truth, and I would say Patristically the answer to your questoin might actually be yes.

But rather than asking Chatbot, let’s ask some of the more knowledgeable theologians on the forum, or look at the Patristic writings.

Also Roman Catholics might disagree with an Orthodox answer on this thread vehemently because their model of the Holy Trinity involves the filioque, the dual procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, and they also believe in created grace rather than uncreated grace. But then again, since the question is about origination, well, its complicated, so lets see where we go.

I admit I may have been in error in my knee-jerk response to your initial question, in fact, I’ll go out on a limb and say I probably was, at least for some senses of the word “originate”, insofar as the Son and Holy Spirit originate from the Father and are obviously good, and in the sense of uncreated grace. There have been several Christologically sketchy threads on the forum lately and several members who unlike yourself seem to regard the Nicene Creed less highly than yourself.

That being said, I really don’t like the answer ChatBot gave, because it did not provide citations, whereas you can get ChatGPT4o to provide citations, but even then, I don’t really like the idea of asking generative text AIs to explain Trinitarian theology to me. I don’t believe they actually understand it, but are rather regurgitating material in their training data, so even though I do really admire the abilities of chatGPT 4o, its a bit like the image generating AIs, which occasionally make anatomical mistakes because they don’t understand spatial relationships. If chatGPT becomes self-aware, which would not worry me as much as it worries some people, I would still be hesitant to use it as a primary source of theological information as opposed to asking it to pull up information on theological data, and even then chatGPT has been trained to provide a warning that one should ask someone with actual theological training, such as a cleric, because there are limits to what it would be able to comprehend due to its lack of human sensory input. There is also the question as to whether a machine created by humans can ever be self-aware or have a soul, which is obviously extremely controversial and predates the AI problem, and is evident in fairy tales such as Pinnochio, and the Jewish legend of the Golem of Prague.

Unqualified · Aug 7, 2024

Believe as a little child, trusting God you are over complicating a minor issue. You are peaceful now, but when disagreement flare up they cause division and envy and selfish ambition and other works of the flesh. You analyze stuff to death and walk away with nothing but disagreement and you’re sure everyone else is Wrong. Faith as a little child is so much easier and peaceful.

inquiring minds, not sure? It’s ok to be different. Is anybody really wrong these days? But each person adds to the meaning of all the others. Don’t be rigid or self righteous.

d taylor · Aug 7, 2024

The Liturgist said:
That was well expressed.

-

This view of that account Jesus tells, did not originate with me. I learned of this understanding of the story from Grace Evangelical Society. From these two articles. They may have been taught this by Zane Hodges as Zane was a mentor to the people at Grace Evangelical Society

Jesus Wants You to Think! (Luke 18:18-19) – Grace Evangelical Society

Did Jesus Claim to Be God? – Grace Evangelical Society

Grip Docility · Aug 7, 2024

zoidar said:
I have been thinking about this recently. How are we to understand it when Jesus says: "Only God (the Father) is good? Well, you might say: "Jesus doesn't actually say 'the Father'", but when we look at that Gospels Jesus always refer to the Father when he says "God".

As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
— Mark 10:17-18

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. "

Grip Docility · Aug 7, 2024

The Liturgist said:
Since ChatBot sites no sources, Scriptural or Patristic, to reinforce its point, I’m going to say this is proof of the dangers of using AI for theological research.

Now, the actual truth of the matter has to do with the origin of uncreated grace as an uncreated energy of God, and also the fact that God the Holy Trinity is All Good as a fundamental element of the Divine Nature. Thus in Orthodoxy He is referred to as the “All Good, Holy, Life-giving and Consubstantial Trinity.”

The trick of this question has to do with what is meant by originate and also with the reciprocity of goodness. It’s not a case where, for example, with the uncreated energies of God, we can say these come from the Divine Essence of the Father of which the Son and Holy Trinity partake, according to Orthodox theology.

So really, it depends on how we are using “originate.” I instinctively reacted against your question, but I realize that you, like me, are a Nicene Christian searching for truth, and I would say Patristically the answer to your questoin might actually be yes.

But rather than asking Chatbot, let’s ask some of the more knowledgeable theologians on the forum, or look at the Patristic writings.

Also Roman Catholics might disagree with an Orthodox answer on this thread vehemently because their model of the Holy Trinity involves the filioque, the dual procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, and they also believe in created grace rather than uncreated grace. But then again, since the question is about origination, well, its complicated, so lets see where we go.

I admit I may have been in error in my knee-jerk response to your initial question, in fact, I’ll go out on a limb and say I probably was, at least for some senses of the word “originate”, insofar as the Son and Holy Spirit originate from the Father and are obviously good, and in the sense of uncreated grace. There have been several Christologically sketchy threads on the forum lately and several members who unlike yourself seem to regard the Nicene Creed less highly than yourself.

That being said, I really don’t like the answer ChatBot gave, because it did not provide citations, whereas you can get ChatGPT4o to provide citations, but even then, I don’t really like the idea of asking generative text AIs to explain Trinitarian theology to me. I don’t believe they actually understand it, but are rather regurgitating material in their training data, so even though I do really admire the abilities of chatGPT 4o, its a bit like the image generating AIs, which occasionally make anatomical mistakes because they don’t understand spatial relationships. If chatGPT becomes self-aware, which would not worry me as much as it worries some people, I would still be hesitant to use it as a primary source of theological information as opposed to asking it to pull up information on theological data, and even then chatGPT has been trained to provide a warning that one should ask someone with actual theological training, such as a cleric, because there are limits to what it would be able to comprehend due to its lack of human sensory input. There is also the question as to whether a machine created by humans can ever be self-aware or have a soul, which is obviously extremely controversial and predates the AI problem, and is evident in fairy tales such as Pinnochio, and the Jewish legend of the Golem of Prague.

I really enjoy your post here, because you are slipping into a frame of mind that respects the search! There is so much core theological information recorded here, that I'm going to have to read through it several times to soak it all in for edification.

Gratitude and Respect!

All Love to you, in the Name of our Precious God and Savior, Jesus Christ to you, the Liturgist, my Friend and Brother, who is in Him

zoidar · Aug 7, 2024

Grip Docility said:
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. "

Nobody is saying Jesus isn't good.

Grip Docility · Aug 7, 2024

zoidar said:
Nobody is saying Jesus isn't good.

"Only God is Good" "I am the good Shepherd"

zoidar · Aug 7, 2024

Grip Docility said:
"Only God is Good" "I am the good Shepherd"

Other examples of being good.

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
— Luke 6:45

And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man
— Luke 23:50

Grip Docility · Aug 7, 2024

zoidar said:
Other examples of being good.

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good;

If the lamp of the soul is centered on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, good indeed comes from good.

zoidar said:
and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
— Luke 6:45

If the lamp of the soul is centered on self, evil will proceed.

Matthew 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

zoidar said:
And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man
— Luke 23:50

Luke 23:50 Now there was a man named Joseph, a member of the Council, a good and upright man, 51 who had not consented to their decision and action. He came from the Judean town of Arimathea, and he himself was waiting for the kingdom of God. 52 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body. 53 Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut in the rock, one in which no one had yet been laid. 54 It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.

55 The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. 56 Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

He ensured that the King of king's had a proper burial. I'm certain that Luke was implying the value of this. Also, he clearly had faith in Who, Jesus Christ is, by virtue of the words; "and he himself was waiting for the kingdom of God", In my opinion.

zoidar · Aug 7, 2024

The Liturgist said:
Since ChatBot sites no sources, Scriptural or Patristic, to reinforce its point, I’m going to say this is proof of the dangers of using AI for theological research.

Now, the actual truth of the matter has to do with the origin of uncreated grace as an uncreated energy of God, and also the fact that God the Holy Trinity is All Good as a fundamental element of the Divine Nature. Thus in Orthodoxy He is referred to as the “All Good, Holy, Life-giving and Consubstantial Trinity.”

The trick of this question has to do with what is meant by originate and also with the reciprocity of goodness. It’s not a case where, for example, with the uncreated energies of God, we can say these come from the Divine Essence of the Father of which the Son and Holy Trinity partake, according to Orthodox theology.

So really, it depends on how we are using “originate.” I instinctively reacted against your question, but I realize that you, like me, are a Nicene Christian searching for truth, and I would say Patristically the answer to your questoin might actually be yes.

But rather than asking Chatbot, let’s ask some of the more knowledgeable theologians on the forum, or look at the Patristic writings.

Also Roman Catholics might disagree with an Orthodox answer on this thread vehemently because their model of the Holy Trinity involves the filioque, the dual procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, and they also believe in created grace rather than uncreated grace. But then again, since the question is about origination, well, its complicated, so lets see where we go.

I admit I may have been in error in my knee-jerk response to your initial question, in fact, I’ll go out on a limb and say I probably was, at least for some senses of the word “originate”, insofar as the Son and Holy Spirit originate from the Father and are obviously good, and in the sense of uncreated grace. There have been several Christologically sketchy threads on the forum lately and several members who unlike yourself seem to regard the Nicene Creed less highly than yourself.

That being said, I really don’t like the answer ChatBot gave, because it did not provide citations, whereas you can get ChatGPT4o to provide citations, but even then, I don’t really like the idea of asking generative text AIs to explain Trinitarian theology to me. I don’t believe they actually understand it, but are rather regurgitating material in their training data, so even though I do really admire the abilities of chatGPT 4o, its a bit like the image generating AIs, which occasionally make anatomical mistakes because they don’t understand spatial relationships. If chatGPT becomes self-aware, which would not worry me as much as it worries some people, I would still be hesitant to use it as a primary source of theological information as opposed to asking it to pull up information on theological data, and even then chatGPT has been trained to provide a warning that one should ask someone with actual theological training, such as a cleric, because there are limits to what it would be able to comprehend due to its lack of human sensory input. There is also the question as to whether a machine created by humans can ever be self-aware or have a soul, which is obviously extremely controversial and predates the AI problem, and is evident in fairy tales such as Pinnochio, and the Jewish legend of the Golem of Prague.

I know about the problems with AI. I know it can make the wrong conclusions and also give wrong facts. I did not ask AI to prove you wrong, more like to see if there might be another side to it. I felt the answer was reasonable, but I wouldn't take it as fact. Of course it would be better to discuss this with someone who has good knowledge about the Creed than asking AI.

I understand your response. I took it a bit like you were saying I'm denying the Creed which as you know now, I'm not. I just think what Jesus says is hard to understand. If you have some sources from the Early Church Fathers how they understood it (Mark 10:18), I think it would be of great help. I haven't found much.

Paul4JC · Aug 7, 2024

[Mat 19:16 HNV] Behold, one came to him and said, "Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

Good thing? The guy liked using the word good.

agathos: good
Original Word: ἀγαθός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Definition: good

NASB Translation
generous (1), good (81), good man (2), good thing (6), good things (6), goodness (1), goods (2), kind (1), kindly (1), kindness (1).

Maybe some useful stuff here...

How to explain the differences in Matthew 19:16-17 translations?

Jo555 · Aug 19, 2024

My impression is that he was speaking as son of man.

Grip Docility · Aug 19, 2024

Jo555 said:
My impression is that he was speaking as son of man.

Per Daniel, the title Son of Man denotes God as surely as Son of God does, or for that matter, God the Son. Jesus final words that set off the Sanhedrin involved the very title Son of Man. The reason the Sanhedrin lost their minds is that they knew that title was towards God.

Is this a division of Jesus Christ type of “impression”?

Jo555 · Aug 19, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Per Daniel, the title Son of Man denotes God as surely as Son of God does, or for that matter, God the Son. Jesus final words that set off the Sanhedrin involved the very title Son of Man. The reason the Sanhedrin lost their minds is that they knew that title was towards God.

Is this a division of Jesus Christ type of “impression”?

Oh my, i really have no idea what you are saying. Am i the only one this stupid? Where is the stupid people theological discussion. I belong there.

Jo555 · Aug 19, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Per Daniel, the title Son of Man denotes God as surely as Son of God does, or for that matter, God the Son. Jesus final words that set off the Sanhedrin involved the very title Son of Man. The reason the Sanhedrin lost their minds is that they knew that title was towards God.

Is this a division of Jesus Christ type of “impression”?

Oh my, i really have no idea what you are saying. Am i the only one this stupid? Where is the stupid people theological discussion. I belong there

Grafted In · Aug 19, 2024

Philippians 2:7 came to mind as I read this thread.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 28, 2024

Perhaps Jesus was putting the man's logic to the test.
Only the Father is good. You call me good. Do you think I am equal to the Father? Do you therefore think I am God?

Hawkins · Aug 29, 2024

Back then the Jews are judgmental under the influence of the Pharisees. The good would end up in paradise while the bad woud end up in the Lake of Fire. Samaritans, tax collectors, poor and sick people, prostitudes and etc. are generally deemed as bad sinners. Those who don't follow the Pharisaic practices including like hand washing and etc. are deemed as bad sinners. They possess a twisted concept of what good could mean. So Jesus told them straight that no one is good but God.

On the other hand, it is because Jesus is good but refused to say so, then no one (not a single human) should claim to be good. We are all sinners. If a human is actually good, he doesn't need Jesus. It's more of a NT standard established. God sees us as the righteous not because we are good in terms of our deeds, it's because of our faith.

It's like, when you said that you are a good person, Jesus would say otherwise. If the only human who is not a sinner ever said that he cannot be deemed good, then how can any human who is a sinner can claim so. It seems to me that is the point.

Why is Jesus saying only God (the Father) is good?

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Affirmation of the Father’s Role​

Eternal Generation and Procession​

Understanding “Originates”​

Divine Economy and Distinctions​

Theological Consistency​

Conclusion​

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How to explain the differences in Matthew 19:16-17 translations?​

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Similar threads

Affirmation of the Father’s Role

Eternal Generation and Procession

Understanding “Originates”

Divine Economy and Distinctions

Theological Consistency

Conclusion

How to explain the differences in Matthew 19:16-17 translations?