Foolishness and deceptiveness of orthodox beliefs

mikeforjesus · Aug 17, 2024

Orthodox look very stupid defending church beliefs since if you need the church to be saved how can who is in a country where he is far from priests be saved or if one is close to priest but dies before he can reach priest. Some may try to say such people in other countries will not go to heaven but not to hell either but such is deceptive as all need jesus but how about those close to church does church teach need to be catechumen to be saved and if so what does it take to be catechumen but if one does not where does church explain one does not need to be catechumen to be saved because it may not be possible.

But actually the gospel is required for everyone that is why the great commision says to preach the gospel to every creature he who does not believe will be damned so that atleast those who heard and did not believe will be damned

HTacianas · Aug 17, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
Orthodox look very stupid defending church beliefs since if you need the church to be saved how can who is in a country where he is far from priests be saved or if one is close to priest but dies before he can reach priest. Some may try to say such people in other countries will not go to heaven but not to hell either but such is deceptive as all need jesus but how about those close to church does church teach need to be catechumen to be saved and if so what does it take to be catechumen but if one does not where does church explain one does not need to be catechumen to be saved because it may not be possible

Well, let's examine you question regarding catechumen and the Church. Looking to the example of a catechumen in the bible we find the jailer of Acts 16. He asked what he needed to do to be saved and he was told to believe in Jesus. But it didn't end there. The Apostles then "spoke the word of the Lord to him", i.e., he went through a catechism, see Acts 16:32. He was then baptized. Now you say you consider it to be "stupid" to rely on the Church for salvation yet the jailer of Acts had no path to salvation until the Church came to him in the person of the Apostles. Now if it was somehow possible for him to be saved without the Apostles how on earth would he have done it? Could he have saved himself? How would he even have known about salvation without the Church?

mikeforjesus · Aug 17, 2024

It makes sense if you want to be careful but dont consider justice to consider if it is a deception that it looks stupid that you are still defending you need the church even though there can not be a priest or orthodox person to baptise a person and the church says that is only in emergency so does not give assurance if not in emergency if person can work to travel how much effort required. And the church does not use definition of bible for catechumen that assumed must be present in church for some time to be catechumen. An evangelist who comes not part of church may tell gospel about christ.

ArmyMatt · Aug 17, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
Orthodox look very stupid defending church beliefs since if you need the church to be saved how can who is in a country where he is far from priests be saved or if one is close to priest but dies before he can reach priest.

if you are going to call us stupid, don’t lead off with a run-on sentence.

but to answer your question, we also believe that God takes our situation into account when He judges us. so He knows those who die before they can get to a priest or live far away or whatever.

mikeforjesus said:
Some may try to say such people in other countries will not go to heaven but not to hell either but such is deceptive as all need jesus but how about those close to church does church teach need to be catechumen to be saved and if so what does it take to be catechumen but if one does not where does church explain one does not need to be catechumen to be saved because it may not be possible

be that as it may, we do not teach of a third place, dunno where you got that from.

to be a catechumen, you head to your closest Church and talk to the priest. if not, contact him to work something out.

mikeforjesus said:
so you are still defending you need the church even though there can not be a priest or orthodox person to baptise a person and the church says that is only in emergency so does not give assurance if not in emergency if person can work to travel how much effort required.

Philip Ludwell was an American convert to Orthodoxy in the 1700s, and his closest priest was in England. yes, you need the Church because that’s what Scripture teaches.

mikeforjesus said:
And the church does not use definition of bible for catechumen that assumed must be present in church for some time to be catechumen.

not sure what this means.

mikeforjesus said:
An evangelist who comes not part of church may tell gospel about christ.

maybe, but it’s not the Gospel found in the Bible.

BNR32FAN · Aug 17, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
Orthodox look very stupid defending church beliefs since if you need the church to be saved how can who is in a country where he is far from priests be saved or if one is close to priest but dies before he can reach priest. Some may try to say such people in other countries will not go to heaven but not to hell either but such is deceptive as all need jesus but how about those close to church does church teach need to be catechumen to be saved and if so what does it take to be catechumen but if one does not where does church explain one does not need to be catechumen to be saved because it may not be possible

Yeah I wouldn’t begin the discussion by calling them stupid. You should at the very least give them an opportunity to explain their official position. I’m not an Orthodox member but it’s my understanding that believers in Christ will be able to join the church after their death.

prodromos · Aug 17, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
Orthodox look very stupid defending church beliefs since if you need the church to be saved how can who is in a country where he is far from priests be saved or if one is close to priest but dies before he can reach priest. Some may try to say such people in other countries will not go to heaven but not to hell either but such is deceptive as all need jesus but how about those close to church does church teach need to be catechumen to be saved and if so what does it take to be catechumen but if one does not where does church explain one does not need to be catechumen to be saved because it may not be possible

It seems you came here not to debate, but rather to try and provoke an angry response. You won't get that here.

FenderTL5 · Aug 17, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
Orthodox look very stupid defending church beliefs since if you need the church to be saved how can who is in a country where he is far from priests be saved or if one is close to priest but dies before he can reach priest. Some may try to say such people in other countries will not go to heaven but not to hell either but such is deceptive as all need jesus but how about those close to church does church teach need to be catechumen to be saved and if so what does it take to be catechumen but if one does not where does church explain one does not need to be catechumen to be saved because it may not be possible

Well that's a fine how do you do. Good morning to you, also.

mikeforjesus · Aug 17, 2024

prodromos said:
It seems you came here not to debate, but rather to try and provoke an angry response. You won't get that here.

Well good if I dont get an angry response for if you are angry that does not affect me that is your fault or if you are angry and only want to offer to try to control a debate that is non virtuous of you but I dont want others to be angry but I did come to attack to insult the tradition as I dont judge the people but that is stumbling block that it does not work to be biblical that I did want to debate though if can prove it works because then I would wonder if need to be obedient.

Clare73 · Aug 17, 2024

HTacianas said:
Well, let's examine you question regarding catechumen and the Church. Looking to the example of a catechumen in the bible we find the jailer of Acts 16. He asked what he needed to do to be saved and he was told to believe in Jesus. But it didn't end there. The Apostles then "spoke the word of the Lord to him", i.e., he went through a catechism, see Acts 16:32. He was then baptized. Now you say you consider it to be "stupid" to rely on the Church for salvation yet the jailer of Acts had no path to salvation until the Church came to him in the person of the Apostles. Now if it was somehow possible for him to be saved without the Apostles how on earth would he have done it? Could he have saved himself? How would he even have known about salvation without the Church?

The church is the body of Christ.

Today he can read a Bible, having no connection to or knowledge of the body of Christ, and become the body of Christ through faith in Jesus Christ..

prodromos · Aug 17, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
Well good if I dont get an angry response for if you are angry that does not affect me that is your fault or if you are angry and only want to offer to try to control a debate that is non virtuous of you but I dont want others to be angry but I did come to attack to insult the tradition as I dont judge the people but that is stumbling block that it does not work to be biblical that I did want to debate though if can prove it works because then I would wonder if need to be obedient.

Please make some effort to learn how to write in short sentences if you wish to be understood. The latter part of what you wrote above made no sense.

All4Christ · Aug 17, 2024

Stating that “Orthodox look very stupid” is an attack on Orthodox Christians, not our beliefs. However, I don’t think many (if any) of us will get angry from your posts.

For many years, you posted on a thread that you created in the My Two Cents forum. In that thread, you debated internally about which Church was correct (between the Orthodox or Catholic Church). This is a significant departure from your previous posts.

P.S. Punctuation is a wonderful communication tool.

HTacianas · Aug 17, 2024

Clare73 said:
The church is the body of Christ.

Today he can read a Bible, having no connection to or knowledge of the body of Christ, and become the body of Christ through faith in Jesus Christ..

Act 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples

Act 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

Act 19:3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”

Act 19:4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

FenderTL5 · Aug 17, 2024

Clare73 said:
The church is the body of Christ.

Today he can read a Bible, having no connection to or knowledge of the body of Christ, and become the body of Christ through faith in Jesus Christ..

One will be hard-pressed to be part of something they have no knowledge of nor connection with.

Clare73 · Aug 17, 2024

HTacianas said:
Act 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
Act 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
Act 19:3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”

Act 19:4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Paul is referring to the special empowerment of the Holy Spirit, as at Pentecost, not to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in their new birth

Lukaris · Aug 17, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
Orthodox look very stupid defending church beliefs since if you need the church to be saved how can who is in a country where he is far from priests be saved or if one is close to priest but dies before he can reach priest. Some may try to say such people in other countries will not go to heaven but not to hell either but such is deceptive as all need jesus but how about those close to church does church teach need to be catechumen to be saved and if so what does it take to be catechumen but if one does not where does church explain one does not need to be catechumen to be saved because it may not be possible

Situations around us are complicated & I don’t know yours and it is probably best I speak in general terms that are not a burden to you (as best I can).

Anyway, do what you can and follow the Lord. Call on the Lord ( Romans 10:9-13), do your best in keeping His commandments ( see John 14:15-18, Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:1-12, Romans 13:8-10, ( if you can) give alms ( Matthew 6:1-4), pray for yourself and neighbor by the commandments as the Lord teaches us to pray ( Matthew 6:5-13, see also 1 Timothy 2:1-6).

The Lord told the rich young man the same basic things in Matthew 19:16-31 especially in verses 16-19. The young man could have probably said prior to verse 20“thank you Lord, now I know that I must live my life by your commandments & not assume I have “kept” them” ( verse 20).

HTacianas · Aug 17, 2024

Clare73 said:
Paul is referring to the special empowerment of the Holy Spirit, as at Pentecost, not to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in their new birth

Where does it say that?

BNR32FAN · Aug 17, 2024

Clare73 said:
The church is the body of Christ.

Today he can read a Bible, having no connection to or knowledge of the body of Christ, and become the body of Christ through faith in Jesus Christ..

Sadly our Orthodox brothers & sisters don’t believe anyone outside of the Orthodox Church is in the Body of Christ. However they do believe that the true teachings of God will be revealed to the followers of Christ who are outside of the Orthodox Church when they die and they will be given the opportunity to accept the teachings of the Orthodox then they will be accepted into the Body of Christ. I had a very long discussion on this subject with our Orthodox brethren here on CF and this is how they explained it to me. I don’t agree with it but I would point out that this explanation does refute the claim made in the OP that believers outside of the Orthodox Church cannot be saved. I do believe that God’s teachings will be revealed to us who believe after we die and I also do believe that probably all of us will come to the realization that we were in error and will have to accept what has been revealed to us as truth. However, I absolutely do not agree that followers of Christ are not in the Body of Christ because of errors they may have in their theology, I believe that we are joined to the Body of Christ when we humble ourselves to Him as our love for Him grows and submit to His will and His teachings.

BNR32FAN · Aug 17, 2024

Clare73 said:
Paul is referring to the special empowerment of the Holy Spirit, as at Pentecost, not to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in their new birth

A similar situation happened in Acts 8 where believers were baptized and didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Peter & John traveled to Samaria and laid hands on them.

Clare73 · Aug 17, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
Sadly our Orthodox brothers & sisters don’t believe anyone outside of the Orthodox Church is in the Body of Christ. However they do believe that the true teachings of God will be revealed to the followers of Christ who are outside of the Orthodox Church when they die and they will be given the opportunity to accept the teachings of the Orthodox then they will be accepted into the Body of Christ. I had a very long discussion on this subject with our Orthodox brethren here on CF and this is how they explained it to me. I don’t agree with it but I would point out that this explanation does refute the claim made in the OP that believers outside of the Orthodox Church cannot be saved. I do believe that God’s teachings will be revealed to us who believe after we die and I also do believe that probably all of us will come to the realization that we were in error and will have to accept what has been revealed to us as truth. However, I absolutely do not agree that followers of Christ are not in the Body of Christ because of errors they may have in their theology, I believe that we are joined to the Body of Christ when we humble ourselves to Him as our love for Him grows and submit to His will and His teachings.

Necessary to that is (at least implied) faith in and trust on the (blood, Ro 3:25) atoning work and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.

ArmyMatt · Aug 17, 2024

mikeforjesus said:
Well good if I dont get an angry response for if you are angry that does not affect me that is your fault or if you are angry and only want to offer to try to control a debate that is non virtuous of you but I dont want others to be angry but I did come to attack to insult the tradition as I dont judge the people but that is stumbling block that it does not work to be biblical that I did want to debate though if can prove it works because then I would wonder if need to be obedient.

except you didn’t insult or attack our tradition. you said weird stuff that was really ignorant of us.

if you want to go after us, go after what we actually believe.

Foolishness and deceptiveness of orthodox beliefs

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