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Are the worms and fire used to torment living people? (Rethinking Mark 9:48)

DamianWarS

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Yes, I agree that "perish" in John 3:16 is "the antithesis to eternal life." That much is clear just from a plain reading of the verse in English. If we dig deeper, we can see that the Greek word translated "perish" is apollumi. That word, and a closely related noun (apolleia), are the most commonly used words in the New Testament to describe the final fate of the lost. When it refers to something done by or happening to people, apollumi very consistently involves the loss of life. Other Greek authors used apollumi to specifically refer to what we call annihilation. All of this strengthens the case for annihilation. I have a detailed video on apollumi if you are interested:
I agree that annihilation can be easily interpreted in the text and I tend to lean that way but because of the ambiguity of the subject I am content with leaving it not fully knowing and take the warning as is that I don't want to go there.

The reference to Gehenna with the worm that never dies and the fire that is never quenched may not be speaking about eternal torment upon an individual but rather more of a place of eternal death that when you pass through you are forever gone, and then another behind you, and another behind them, a constant line that requires always stoked fires and results in never ending decay. to the individual it is final but to the place it never turns off. I get how this is tempting to fit it with annihilation and it fits a garbage dump sort of place like the origins of Gehenna where things go and don't come out but eventually rot and disappear, yet because it is constantly fueled with new things the fire and the worm keep on going.

The text uses "their worm doesn't die..." Which is my only pause. It's the same in Hebrew, a possessive is used giving the worm a very personal feel like one worm is assigned to one person and it never dies and keeps on gnawing because perhaps the flesh also keeps on going. We like annihilation because it's more comforting to know something is put out of their misery but then we read they have assigned worms that never die which begs the question does their host never die too? Regrettably although annihilation fits a "eternal death" description we can't deny that never ending decay upon an individual also fits like a death that never ends.
 
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Mark Corbett

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I agree that annihilation can be easily interpreted in the text and I tend to lean that way but because of the ambiguity of the subject I am content with leaving it not fully knowing and take the warning as is that I don't want to go there.

The reference to Gehenna with the worm that never dies and the fire that is never quenched may not be speaking about eternal torment upon an individual but rather more of a place of eternal death that when you pass through you are forever gone, and then another behind you, and another behind them, a constant line that requires always stoked fires and results in never ending decay. to the individual it is final but to the place it never turns off. I get how this is tempting to fit it with annihilation and it fits a garbage dump sort of place like the origins of Gehenna where things go and don't come out but eventually rot and disappear, yet because it is constantly fueled with new things the fire and the worm keep on going.

The text uses "their worm doesn't die..." Which is my only pause. It's the same in Hebrew, a possessive is used giving the worm a very personal feel like one worm is assigned to one person and it never dies and keeps on gnawing because perhaps the flesh also keeps on going. We like annihilation because it's more comforting to know something is put out of their misery but then we read they have assigned worms that never die which begs the question does their host never die too? Regrettably although annihilation fits a "eternal death" description we can't deny that never ending decay upon an individual also fits like a death that never ends.
Neither the original Greek in Mark 9 nor the Hebrew in Isaiah 66 indicate that the worm NEVER dies. Rather, it says that the worm does "not die." Sometimes "not" may mean "never," but very often "not" does not mean "never." I give specific examples in the video of Bible verses that use the phrase "not die" where it clearly does not mean "never die." It means something like "not die in the current situation." Thus, the worms will not die before completing their task of turning the dead bodies into dust.
 
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CoreyD

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Neither the original Greek in Mark 9 nor the Hebrew in Isaiah 66 indicate that the worm NEVER dies. Rather, it says that the worm does "not die." Sometimes "not" may mean "never," but very often "not" does not mean "never." I give specific examples in the video of Bible verses that use the phrase "not die" where it clearly does not mean "never die." It means something like "not die in the current situation." Thus, the worms will not die before completing their task of turning the dead bodies into dust.
The whole immortal soul and eternal torment in hell, have long been indoctrinated in our psyche.
Thus, it will not be easy to erase, and will often be the basis for how many analyze scripture.
To see the scriptures in their "pure" state, one would need to let go of the doctrines.
 
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Mark Corbett

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The whole immortal soul and eternal torment in hell, have long been indoctrinated in our psyche.
Thus, it will not be easy to erase, and will often be the basis for how many analyze scripture.
To see the scriptures in their "pure" state, one would need to let go of the doctrines.
I agree. It's not easy.
 
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DamianWarS

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Neither the original Greek in Mark 9 nor the Hebrew in Isaiah 66 indicate that the worm NEVER dies. Rather, it says that the worm does "not die." Sometimes "not" may mean "never," but very often "not" does not mean "never." I give specific examples in the video of Bible verses that use the phrase "not die" where it clearly does not mean "never die." It means something like "not die in the current situation." Thus, the worms will not die before completing their task of turning the dead bodies into dust.
Worms turning flesh into dust is a very surface literal thing. If we are to look at the text as a metaphor what role do the worms play? Is it just simply annihilation? and if so where does the second death fit into this?
 
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DamianWarS

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I agree. It's not easy.
The account of Lazarus and the rich man is interesting to me. Although the rich man goes to hades and seems to be enduring torment I think the point of the account is to show those called counted as a sons of Abraham ergo the redeemed and those who are not. The account shows a chasm that can't be crossed yet seems to still be close.

If I let my imagination help define some of these contrasts it may be that "hell" and God are the same thing. We all know that it is not our righteousness that gets us into heaven so our submitted material "as-is" is incompatible with God. If I had a pristine sheet of paper and an old soiled torn one they will both burn up just the same in fire and perhaps it's the same with God. We all need the substance of Christ who is of the same substance of the Father in order that we too are counted as sons of Abraham.

So the "place" may be arbitrary, we may all go to the exact same place but it might be that the presence of God is so all consuming that without being one with Christ all burns up into oblivion.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Worms turning flesh into dust is a very surface literal thing. If we are to look at the text as a metaphor what role do the worms play? Is it just simply annihilation? and if so where does the second death fit into this?
Yes, one of the advantages of the annihilation view is that it allows many texts to be read more literally in contexts where a literal reading makes good sense. It also allows interpreting the second death more literally. It means, literally, dying a second time. For more detail on the second death, I have this video:

 
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Zenos777

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I appreciate this thread. Hany people believe that hell is eternal. If the 1st death is a cessation of the body, then I would gather that the 2nd death is cessation on the soul. An annihilation, in the lake of fire, after the sins have been paid for, in hell...and you shall not get out until you have paid the last penny. I believe that a loving and Just God would cause those who rebelled against him to pay a price but eliminate them as if they were never born. How could heaven be heaven if we were thinking that some of our loved ones were burning forever.

Blessing to you!
 
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Dan Perez

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Neither the original Greek in Mark 9 nor the Hebrew in Isaiah 66 indicate that the worm NEVER dies. Rather, it says that the worm does "not die." Sometimes "not" may mean "never," but very often "not" does not mean "never." I give specific examples in the video of Bible verses that use the phrase "not die" where it clearly does not mean "never die." It means something like "not die in the current situation." Thus, the worms will not die before completing their task of turning the dead bodies into dust.
When Christ sits on the Great WHITE THRONE , the Devil will be cast into the Lake of Fire in Rev 20:10 and all the dead small and great will also be cast into the LAKE of FIRE , Rev 20;12-15 .

dan p
 
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Mark Corbett

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When Christ sits on the Great WHITE THRONE , the Devil will be cast into the Lake of Fire in Rev 20:10 and all the dead small and great will also be cast into the LAKE of FIRE , Rev 20;12-15 .

dan p
I agree that the Devil and then all those who are not saved will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is where people who are not saved will die a second time after being resurrected and judged. I explain this in more detail in this 20-minute video:
 
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Deblee

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I agree that annihilation can be easily interpreted in the text and I tend to lean that way but because of the ambiguity of the subject I am content with leaving it not fully knowing and take the warning as is that I don't want to go there.

The reference to Gehenna with the worm that never dies and the fire that is never quenched may not be speaking about eternal torment upon an individual but rather more of a place of eternal death that when you pass through you are forever gone, and then another behind you, and another behind them, a constant line that requires always stoked fires and results in never ending decay. to the individual it is final but to the place it never turns off. I get how this is tempting to fit it with annihilation and it fits a garbage dump sort of place like the origins of Gehenna where things go and don't come out but eventually rot and disappear, yet because it is constantly fueled with new things the fire and the worm keep on going.

The text uses "their worm doesn't die..." Which is my only pause. It's the same in Hebrew, a possessive is used giving the worm a very personal feel like one worm is assigned to one person and it never dies and keeps on gnawing because perhaps the flesh also keeps on going. We like annihilation because it's more comforting to know something is put out of their misery but then we read they have assigned worms that never die which begs the question does their host never die too? Regrettably although annihilation fits a "eternal death" description we can't deny that never ending decay upon an individual also fits like a death that never ends.
Like you, the phrase "their worm" causes me to think carefully about this text.

I'm pretty old, and I seem to remember that phrase being used, in the old days, to refer to something inside a person, like a soul, maybe. It's not plural, so it probably does refer to the worms that eat bodies.

More than one kind of death is referred to in Scripture. The death of the body is one kind. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord -- for believers. Death of the body comes to believers and unbelievers, and it can be a consequence of sin, or a punishment for sin.

There's also talk of the second death, the death of the soul in hell. Sorry, can't quote you scriptures on this, but hope I gave you a little food for thought. It's a tough subject.
 
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Der Alte

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Neither the original Greek in Mark 9 nor the Hebrew in Isaiah 66 indicate that the worm NEVER dies. Rather, it says that the worm does "not die." Sometimes "not" may mean "never," but very often "not" does not mean "never." I give specific examples in the video of Bible verses that use the phrase "not die" where it clearly does not mean "never die." It means something like "not die in the current situation." Thus, the worms will not die before completing their task of turning the dead bodies into dust.
I wonder why God did not make it clear that "their worm does not die" Does not mean never but does not die until it has devoured its assigned body. Wouldn't God know that it could be misinterpreted years in the future?
 
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Aaron112

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Many Christians believe that the worms and fire that Jesus mentions in Mark 9:48 are being used to torment living people in hell forever.
I thought from the title itself that you were asking about living people on earth.
If and when anyone is in the grave, they are not "living" and at the time they are in the grave they are not aware of anything, good or bad, or any thoughts, or anything going on on earth or anywhere, as Scripture Says Simply.
 
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Deblee

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I wonder why God did not make it clear that "their worm does not die" Does not mean never but does not die until it has devoured its assigned body. Wouldn't God know that it could be misinterpreted years in the future?
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Worms and Fire
Mark 9:48
Many Christians believe that the worms and fire that Jesus mentions in Mark 9:48 are being used to torment living people in hell forever. That is certainly a terrifying thought. Being burned with fire is extremely painful. Being eaten from the inside by worms is terrifying and would also be agonizing. And then if one thinks about these things going on for days, and then years, and then hundreds and thousands and millions of years on and on for eternity - well, it is terrible.
But is that what Jesus meant? I think he meant something different. I think he was referring to worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. What do you think? Why?
Optional: If you want to see a little more detail on WHY I hold the view that I hold, you may watch this 14-minute video:

There are different types of fire in the scriptures, not all of them destructive. The burning bush that didn't destroy it from the O.T. or the ministers a flame of fire from Hebrews come immediately to mind. Even the testing/trial fire from Paul in 1 Cor. Fire is then, in scripture, a spiritual typology subject that can be broken down into categories that have different meanings and different works, some good, some destructive (short version.)

Worm, same general discourse as above.

Most of these association or typology terms need to be reverse engineered from the O.T. where they were deployed and often in the N.T. elaborated upon. Put them all in a package. Break down the meanings into categories. It's quite fun for those who are into the Word.

In general, it's not always and only bad. Just as fire in the natural. It can serve multiple purposes. In scripture these purposes are Divinely Directed, so we should learn from the examples, and not fear to hear His Words, whatever meanings they bring. Man shall "live" by every Word of God, so there should be only Godly fear involved, and for our benefits.
 
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