• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

(1- Having an unveiled face) By beholding we become changed (What is called Antinomianism is not Lawlessness)

Grip Docility

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2017
7,019
2,785
North America
✟19,306.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross, which includes keeping the Sabbath holy.
This hope is in the Law of Moses, not Jesus, IMO
the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth,
Jesus is the Only Truth.
the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law,
This Hope is in the Law, not Jesus.
the Mosaic Law is truth.
Jesus is the Truth, not the Mosaic Law. This exalts the Law as God of mankind, IMO.
In Joh 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is.
Death is the consequence of sin. This is why it is the Ministry of Death, Chiseled in Stone. Hebrews 2:14, 1 Corinthians 15:55,56
In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God
The Mosaic Law is to have the mind set on the flesh.
who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law.
Galatians is clear that this type of discussion can cut one off from the Grace of Jesus Christ, IMO.
the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew
This is re-crucifying Jesus Christ, IMO
where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Mosaic Law. All of this again includes the command to keep the Sabbath holy.
This is tying up heavy burdens on the backs of believers, IMO
Jesus saves us from our sins
The entire life debt. "It is finished" (Paid in full)
(Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20),
That Law is at enmity with the Spirit. We are under the Law of Love, not the law of sin and death. The accuser used the Law as his power against mankind. IMO
so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our obedience to it,
You are saying we are saved by obedience to the Law and trying to verbally cover your tracks. You make it clear that one that doesn't follow the Law is lost. This means that to be saved, one must obey Moses. IMO
being a doer of it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically the content of his gift of saving us form not being a doer of it. For example, Jesus leading us to keep the Sabbath holy is intrinsically the way that he is saving us from not keeping the Sabbath holy.
You are welcome by the Apostle Paul to esteem a day over others.
The way to love God is by being a doer of His character traits, such as the way to love justice is by being a doer of justice.
Please define "doing justice".
The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of the Mosaic Law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12)
Are we gods?
, which is because it is God's instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits. In other words, everything that God commanded in the Mosaic Law was specifically commanded to teach us how to love a different aspect of His character,
The Ministry of Death Chiseled in stone didn't have the Adulterous about to get stoned to death feeling loved.

I believe that Jesus gave a NEW COMMAND for a reason. Love is Love and Stone is Stone.
which is why the Bible repeatedly connects our love for God with our obedience to His commandments in both the OT and the NT.
The Old and New wine don't mix. It bursts the vessel and wastes the wine, per Jesus' own words. IMO
For example, in John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and his teachings are not his own, but that of the Father.
John 13 contains the very Commands being spoken of. Jesus gives these NEW commands.
The way to love the Father is exactly the same as the way to love the Son because the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of His character (Hebrews 1:3).
We have to be perfect like God in our flesh, to be loved by God?
Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued live in sin,
Why is 1 John 1:8 in scripture?
so there must be an aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in he present by being a doer of the Mosaic Law
This is not being saved by Jesus Christ, but the Law of Moses. Hebrews the entire book is clear that if we turn from Jesus back to Moses, there is no sacrifice left for us. IMO
. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having firs been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of those works is the aspect of our salvation that we are experiencing in the present, so those who refuse to experience being a doers of aspects of the Mosaic Law are depriving themselves of those aspects of God's gift of salvation. In other words, obedience to the Mosaic Law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.
Is Jesus our Savior, or are we "Co-Saviors" of ourselves with Jesus?
 
  • Love
Reactions: Spiritual Jew
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,560
2,848
MI
✟436,605.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is not a surprise that you refused to answer my questions because if you did it would completely undermine your position. It is absurd to interpret Paul as speaking against what he said is the word of faith that we proclaim and to interpret him as quoting from what he consider to be Scripture in order to support a point that is arguing against what he was quoting from.


I've not lied. The Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142) and Jesus embodied the truth by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it (John 14:6), so I am promoting truth while your position is opposed to truth.


Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of Christ, not about refusing to follow him.


I don't.


In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not asked about which were the only commandments that we should follow, but about which was the greatest commandment, and the existence of the greatest two implies the existence of other commandments that are not the greatest. Everything in the Mosaic Law is either in in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them, for example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't break the Sabbath or commit murder, idolatry, adultery, theft, rape, favoritism, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law. The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of His other commandments to explain what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the Mosaic Law because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, so that does not leave any room to think we should just obey God's command to love, but not His other commands that explain how to do that.
If you want to put yourself under the curse of the law of Moses, then you better obey all 613 commandments without fail. Are you doing that? If not, then you are guilty of breaking all of them (James 2:10). You clearly do not understand being under grace rather than under the law. Peter rebuked his fellow Jews when they tried to tell Gentile believers they were required to follow the law of Moses (Acts 15) and you ignore that. I'm not going to say any more because you are clearly not going to listen to truth and are going to believe whatever you want to believe instead.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Grip Docility
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
This hope is in the Law of Moses, not Jesus, IMO
It is contradictory for someone to put their hope in God's word, but not in God's word made flesh. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy, so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in God's instructions and it is contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God, but not in His instructions.

Jesus is the Only Truth.
Jesus is God's word made flesh, so he is the truth, but that is in accordance with God's word being truth, not in contrast with it.

This Hope is in the Law, not Jesus.
It is contradictory to put your hope in Jesus, but not in what he taught.

Jesus is the Truth, not the Mosaic Law. This exalts the Law as God of mankind, IMO.
So then you deny the truth of Psalms 119:142?

Death is the consequence of sin. This is why it is the Ministry of Death, Chiseled in Stone. Hebrews 2:14, 1 Corinthians 15:55,56
In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the world of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it is a ministry of life for those who obey it (Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 2:6-7, Romans 6:19-23, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14) and the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who refuse to obey it is not a very good reason to refuse to obey it.

The Mosaic Law is to have the mind set on the flesh.
In Romans 8:4-7, it doesn't say that the Mosaic Law is to have the mind set on the flesh, but rather it contrasts those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. Likewise in Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are contrary to the Spirit are also contrary to the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

Galatians is clear that this type of discussion can cut one off from the Grace of Jesus Christ, IMO.
Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so it is absurd to interpret Galatians as warring that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ and that the way to not be cut off from him is by refusing to follow him.

This is re-crucifying Jesus Christ, IMO
In Titus 2:14, Christ gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus finished on the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what he finished.

This is tying up heavy burdens on the backs of believers, IMO
In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. Do you think that we should love God?

That Law is at enmity with the Spirit. We are under the Law of Love, not the law of sin and death. The accuser used the Law as his power against mankind. IMO
In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of Spirit with the law of sin and death, so while the law of sin is contrary to the Spirit, the Law of Moses is not, rather the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 26:26-27).

You are saying we are saved by obedience to the Law and trying to verbally cover your tracks. You make it clear that one that doesn't follow the Law is lost. This means that to be saved, one must obey Moses. IMO
No, there are many verses like Ephesians 2:8-10 that speak against earning our salvation as the result of our obedience to the Mosaic Law while also speaking in favor of our salvation requiring us to be doers of good works in obedience of it. Likewise, in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so we are required be a worker of lawfulness. In Hebrew 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, so the Bible is abundantly clear that our salvation from not being an obeyer of God intrinsically requires us to be an obeyer of God.

You are welcome by the Apostle Paul to esteem a day over others.
Paul didn't mentioned the Sabbath once in Romans 14 precisely because it had nothing to do with the topic he was discussing. The reason why were are to keep the Sabbath holy is not because man esteemed it as a disputable matter of opinion, but because God rest on on it after six days of Creation, He blessed it, He sanctified it, He sanctifies us, and because He commanded His children to keep it holy. The Sabbath is holy to God regardless of whether or not we keep it holy and what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that.

Paul was a servant of God, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying Him, but if you think that is what Paul was doing, then you should not consider him to be a servant of God. In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed His children to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if you think that Paul spoke against obeying God, then you should be quicker to disregard everything that he said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against obeying anything that He has commanded.

Please define "doing justice".
Justice could not be said to be one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law if it were not instructions for how to be a doer of justice.

Are we gods?
What does that have to do with the fact that God's law is His instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits?

The Ministry of Death Chiseled in stone didn't have the Adulterous about to get stoned to death feeling loved.
If Jesus had stoned her, then he would have sinned in violation of God's law.

I believe that Jesus gave a NEW COMMAND for a reason. Love is Love and Stone is Stone.
There is nothing brand new about the command to love our neighbor because it can be found in Leviticus 19:18, but what is new about that command is the quality of the example by which we should love our neighbor, and indeed the Greek word used refers to newness in regard to quality rather than in regard to time:

3501 /néos ("new on the scene") suggests something "new in time" – in contrast to its near-synonym (2537 /kainós, "new in quality").

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law so if Jesus had been giving a brand new command, then he would have sinned and therefore disqualified himself from being our Savior. Part of the command to love our neighbor as ourselves is the command to love ourselves, so in order to correctly obey that command we need to know how we should love ourselves, and the answer to that is that we should love ourselves as Jesus loves us, which is therefore how we should also love our neighbor. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so he loved us through his obedience to it and that is is also how we should love our neighbor. Love is not doing something other than what is in accordance with the Mosaic Law. Changing the medium upon which God's law is written from stone to our hearts does not change the content of what it instructs, for example, the command to honor our parents written on stone has the same content as the command to honor our parents written on our heart.


The Old and New wine don't mix. It bursts the vessel and wastes the wine, per Jesus' own words. IMO
Jesus gave the parable about the wine skins to answer a question about why his disciples weren't fasting, so you are blatantly taking it out of context, moreover, you are trying to turn it against his entire ministry, which was spent teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example. Furthermore, that doesn't detract from the fact that the Bible repeatedly states in both the OT and the NT that the way to love God is by obeying His commandments, which is because His commandments are His instructions for how to love Him.

John 13 contains the very Commands being spoken of. Jesus gives these NEW commands.
Again, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so his teachings should not be understood as being contrary to what the Father has taught. Furthermore, in John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commandments with those of the Father.

We have to be perfect like God in our flesh, to be loved by God?
I said that the way to love the Father is exactly the same as the way to love the Son because the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of His character (Hebrews 1:3).

Why is 1 John 1:8 in scripture?
There is a different between someone who is not sinless, but still an obeyer of God and someone who is a disobeyer of God.

This is not being saved by Jesus Christ, but the Law of Moses.
The way that Jesus saves us from not being an obeyer of the Law of Moses is by teaching us to experience being an obeyer of it.

Hebrews the entire book is clear that if we turn from Jesus back to Moses, there is no sacrifice left for us. IMO
Hebrews does not say that, but rather it says that opposite:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

In Romans 3:20, it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, so it is also the way that we have received knowledge of the truth, so if we go back to being a transgressor of the Law of Moses, then there remains no sacrifice left for us. Jesus is God's word made flesh and the Mosaic Law is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to turn from Jesus back to the Law of Moses. Likewise, it is contradictory to turn from Jesus back to what Jesus taught.

Is Jesus our Savior, or are we "Co-Saviors" of ourselves with Jesus?
Jesus is our Savior from sin and the way that he saves us from sin is by leading us to be obeyers of God's law/refrainers from sin. God did not give His law as instructions for how to save ourselves.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
If you want to put yourself under the curse of the law of Moses, then you better obey all 613 commandments without fail. Are you doing that? If not, then you are guilty of breaking all of them (James 2:10). You clearly do not understand being under grace rather than under the law. Peter rebuked his fellow Jews when they tried to tell Gentile believers they were required to follow the law of Moses (Acts 15) and you ignore that. I'm not going to say any more because you are clearly not going to listen to truth and are going to believe whatever you want to believe instead.
You refusing to obey God's law does not make you any less of a lawbreaker. If I break any law and become a lawbreaker, then I need to repent, which again in precisely what James was encouraging them to do. I've quoted many verses that show that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, which is what it means to be under grace, yet you deliberately ignore them, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, so you are clearly guilty of what you accuse me of. There are plenty of ways to try to turn God's word against obeying God's word by those who are determined to do that, but it shouldn't make sense to you to do that.

While I completely agree that we are not under the law, Paul spoke about multiple categories of law other than the Law of God, so it should be worth discerning which law he was referring to as us not being under. For example, in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that works of the law are not of faith. Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Moreover, in Romans 6:14, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so we are still under it, but are not under the law of sin. Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to the Law of God and against sin.

While Peter spoke against the position that Gentiles are required to become circumcised in order to become saved, he did not speak against Gentiles obeying what God has commanded. On the contrary, in Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which Peter spoke about Gentiles hearing from him and believing (Acts 15:6-7).
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,560
2,848
MI
✟436,605.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You refusing to obey God's law does not make you any less of a lawbreaker.
This is very disingenuous of you to put it that way. I do NOT refuse to obey God's law which is summed up in the 2 greatest commandments. I try to love God with all my heart, soul and mind and love others as myself in everything I do, so don't lie about me. You just broke one of God's commandments here, so you need to repent of your lie.

What I'm saying is that we are not under the law of Moses and I am NOT saying that we can just ignore all 613 commandments in the law of Moses as if it doesn't matter if we put other gods before God or if we lie, murder or steal and so on.

I again must tell you that Gentiles have NEVER been under the law of Moses but instead are under grace.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

And I believe you said before you don't follow all 613 commandments in the law of Moses. If you want to put yourself under the curse of the law, what gives you the right to pick and choose which of the 613 commandments you want to obey?
 
  • Love
Reactions: Grip Docility
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,657
4,681
Hudson
✟347,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
This is very disingenuous of you to put it that way. I do NOT refuse to obey God's law which is summed up in the 2 greatest commandments. I try to love God with all my heart, soul and mind and love others as myself in everything I do, so don't lie about me. You just broke one of God's commandments here, so you need to repent of your lie.
If there is any part of the Mosaic Law that you refuse to obey, then you are a lawbreaker, so that is not lying. Everything commanded in the Mosaic Law is either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor and a sum is inclusive of all of its parts, so by claiming to try to obey the greatest two commandments, you are also claiming to try to obey the Mosaic Law. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law. What God was commanding to the Israelites two by giving the greatest two commandments does not mean something different from what Jesus was instructing us to do by quoting those commandments. The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of the other commandments to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obeying them. Someone who was correctly obeying the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly obeying the Mosaic Law because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow.

What I'm saying is that we are not under the law of Moses and I am NOT saying that we can just ignore all 613 commandments in the law of Moses as if it doesn't matter if we put other gods before God or if we lie, murder or steal and so on.
The position that we are not under the Mosaic Law is the position that we can ignore all 613 of its commandments.

I again must tell you that Gentiles have NEVER been under the law of Moses but instead are under grace.
In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, but you want God to be gracious to you instead of teaching you to obey it. The position that Gentiles have never been under the Mosaic Law is the position that Gentiles have never been obligated to refrain from doing what it reveals to be sin, that Gentiles have never needed salvation from sin, that Gentiles have never needed the Gospel message, that Gentiles have never needed grace, and that Gentiles have never needed Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example. There is no "but" in the Greek, rather John 1:16 says grace upon grace, so it is speaking about about example of grace being added upon another.

And I believe you said before you don't follow all 613 commandments in the law of Moses. If you want to put yourself under the curse of the law, what gives you the right to pick and choose which of the 613 commandments you want to obey?
The Bible repeatedly says that the Mosaic Law is a blessing, so do you think that those verses are wrong? While there are illegitimate reasons for not following God's commandments, there are also legitimate ones based on what is instructed, and James 2:10 is only speaking against illegitimate reasons. For example, not even Jesus obeyed the commandments in regard to giving birth or to having a period because he was not a woman, and James 2:10 is not suggesting that that means Jesus was a lawbreaker. Likewise, Deuteronomy 17:18 gives a law that is only for the King of Israel.
 
Upvote 0