Christ's Law (The Royal Law / God's Law) is incompatible with the (Big Ten) IMHO

SabbathBlessings said:

The law of sin and death is not the Ten Commandments, that is the law of Liberty James 2:10-12. Its why we have this warning on Paul's writing 2 Peter 3:16 especially when we use Paul's teachings to contradicts the teachings John 14:15-18 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 and example of Jesus John 15:10 1 John 2:6

I would go through these passages with you if I felt it would make a difference, but sadly, no context that has been brought in so far, has really even been addressed so I think we are at an impasse and all gets sorted out soon enough.

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2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stones,...

Which other Law was chiseled in letters on stones?

I'm not following. How do you suggest that this will be "sorted out soon enough"?

I agree that we have reached an "impasse". I, again, offer reconciliation with you as my Sibling in Jesus, as I have been doing every time we have this discussion, under the biblical concept of agreeing to disagree, yet remaining unified under the Love of Jesus Christ.

This is my opinion.

SabbathBlessings said:

The Ten Commandments, no doubt, but Paul is contrasting the spirit of the law with the letter, which is what the New Covenant is about. No longer on tables of stone, but of tables in the heart. Heb 8:10 No longer based on us doing, but on God doing. If one doesn't truly understand the difference of the OC with the NC which is established on better promises Heb 8:6 not better laws because God's law is perfect Psa 19:7. Its the application of the law that changed, not the law itself that is holy, just and righteous Rom 7:12 where Jesus taught, not to break or teach others to break the least of these ,Mat 5:19 Paul does not have the authority to undermine God or Jesus. I believe its the reason we have this warning on Paul's writings 2 Peter 3:16 it would not be there if it wasn't a major problem.

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I thought you said that the 10 Commandments weren't the Law of sin and death? Did I misunderstand you? Link here

2 Corinthians 3:7 says that they are the very "ministry of death".
Romans 3:20 says that they reveal sin.

I want to ensure that I am listening correctly.

BobRyan said:

Under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 - that same Law is written on the heart.
As long as it is merely external on stone and not on the heart - the person is lost.

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Bob, you and I find reconciliation in scripture. I offered it in the contrasting dialogue to Sabbath Blessings and actually prefer it to back and forth. I am only going back and forth with @SabbathBlessings because they are convicted to do so, so I am honoring their desire.

I want to re-establish with you that I am not claiming to have superior doctrine and acknowledge that I am a fallible human, only sharing what I believe the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ has impressed upon my soul in my personal walk. I encourage you to back Sabbath blessings up, but, because you and I are at peace, I don't desire to directly debate you. We reconcile in the Love of Jesus Christ. I would enjoy if you rebut any of my points to Sabbath Blessings, but I am merely debating them, due to a lack of possible reconciliation. I know that we all are convicted and such forth, but am honoring the wishes of Sabbath Blessings to dialogue in reference to this matter.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, Bob, Brother who Rests in Him

SabbathBlessings said:

It's not the law that is the "ministry of death" the law is holy, righteous and good Rom 7:12 Psa 119:172 and everlasting Mat 5:19

Its the application of the law that Paul is contrasting. The Old Covenant written on stone was about us doing Exo 19:8 based on our strength, the New Covenant, God is the one doing, Heb 8:10 its based on His strength, as long as we don't rebel against what God placed in our hearts His law, Heb 8:10 and He gives us the power to obey through His Spirit John 14:15-18 if we do not rebel against God's law, which makes us an enmity against God and we can't please him Rom 8:7-8. Paul is not teaching us to rebel against God, but is hard to understand, which is why if we can't make the same argument from the teachings of Jesus, I would be careful this warning doesn't apply to us, because it sounds serious 2 Peter 3:16. Paul never countermanded God or Jesus, he was a servant Rom 1:1 and a servant is never greater than their master. John 13:16

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I am trying to follow you. In post number 18, our dialogue follows this train of thought.

SabbathBlessings said:

The ministry of death is sin Rom 6:23 God‘s law is holy, just and righteous Rom 7:12 Psa 119:172. It’s not the law that is the problem, it’s sin- breaking God’s law that is. All the law does is point out our sins and our need for a Savior who forgives us when we confess and helps us to overcome when we love and have faith in Him John 14:15-18 Those who are an enmity against God are not subject to God’s law Rom 8:7-8 so its a matter of who we serve Rom 6:16

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The following is my reply in Post number 19.

2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stones,...
Hebrews 2:14 Because God's children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death.

The Devil is the one who "had" the power of DEATH

1 Corinthians 15:54 Death has been swallowed up in victory.
The "Good Law", was used as a tool by Satan against Mankind to condemn them to DEATH, by the power of Sin, defined by THE NOMOS. Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death

The Royal Law is the Law of the Spirit. The Stone is specifically associated with Death.
1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! (FULFILLED THE LAW of Sin and Death)

To this, you replied this; in Post number 20.

SabbathBlessings said:

The law of sin and death is not the Ten Commandments, that is the law of Liberty James 2:10-12. in 2 Cor 3 Paul is contrasting the letter verses the Spirit. Its why we have this warning on Paul's writing 2 Peter 3:16 especially when we use Paul's teachings to contradict the teachings John 14:15-18 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 and example of Jesus John 15:10 1 John 2:6

I would go through these passages with you if I felt it would make a difference, but sadly, no context that has been brought in so far, has really even been addressed so I think we are at an impasse and all gets sorted out soon enough.

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You have been consistently clear that Romans 3:20 shows what the purpose of the Law is, in discussion. I remember earlier references where you connected this to God empowering us to overcome disobedience to this law through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is my best recollection of a long dialogue back and forth.

I replied this; This is Post number 21.

Grip Docility said:

2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stones,...

Which other Law was chiseled in letters on stones?

I'm not following. How do you suggest that this will be "sorted out soon enough"?

I agree that we have reached an "impasse". I, again, offer reconciliation with you as my Sibling in Jesus, as I have been doing every time we have this discussion, under the biblical concept of agreeing to disagree, yet remaining unified under the Love of Jesus Christ.

This is my opinion.

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You replied this; Post number 22

SabbathBlessings said:

The Ten Commandments, no doubt, but Paul is contrasting the spirit of the law with the letter, which is what the New Covenant is about. No longer on tables of stone, but of tables in the heart. Heb 8:10 No longer based on us doing, but on God doing. If one doesn't truly understand the difference of the OC with the NC which is established on better promises Heb 8:6 not better laws because God's law is perfect Psa 19:7. Its the application of the law that changed, not the law itself that is holy, just and righteous Rom 7:12 where Jesus taught, not to break or teach others to break the least of these ,Mat 5:19 Paul does not have the authority to undermine God or Jesus. I believe its the reason we have this warning on Paul's writings 2 Peter 3:16 it would not be there if it wasn't a major problem.

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I replied this; Post number 23

Grip Docility said:

I thought you said that the 10 Commandments weren't the Law of sin and death? Did I misunderstand you? Link here

2 Corinthians 3:7 says that they are the very "ministry of death".
Romans 3:20 says that they reveal sin.

I want to ensure that I am listening correctly.

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You, then replied this; Post number 24

SabbathBlessings said:

It's not the law that is the "ministry of death" the law is holy, righteous and good Rom 7:12 Psa 119:172 and everlasting Mat 5:19

Its the application of the law that Paul is contrasting. The Old Covenant written on stone was about us doing Exo 19:8 based on our strength, the New Covenant, God is the one doing, Heb 8:10 its based on His strength, as long as we don't rebel against what God placed in our hearts His law, Heb 8:10 and He gives us the power to obey through His Spirit John 14:15-18 if we do not rebel against God's law, which makes us an enmity against God and we can't please him Rom 8:7-8. Paul is not teaching us to rebel against God, but is hard to understand, which is why if we can't make the same argument from the teachings of Jesus, I would be careful this warning doesn't apply to us, because it sounds serious 2 Peter 3:16. Paul never countermanded God or Jesus, he was a servant Rom 1:1 and a servant is never greater than their master. John 13:16

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I'm going to go back through this, now that I have laid it out and try to follow your dialogue.

In post number 18, you call the Ministry of Death, Sin and bind it to Romans 6:23 (Keep in mind that I have never asserted that the 10 commandments are "unholy", but have agreed with you off and on that they show us that we sin Romans 3:20. I am saying that only God is Good by the Stone Law... ie.. God is our Rock)

In Post Number 19, I go forward and express that the Law of Stone (10 Commandments) is(are) the Ministry of Death.

In Post Number 20, you say that the 10 commandments are not the Ministry of death.

In Post Number 21, I quote 2 Corinthians 3:7 which call the letters chiseled in stone, The ministry of death.

In Post Number 22, you acknowledge that the 10 Commandments are the ministry of Death.

In Post Number 23, I'm confused, because you said in Post number 20 that the 10 commandments are not the ministry of Death.

In Post Number 24, you then say that the 10 commandments are not "The Law", but then suggest that they are the Law, that is written on our hearts, thus declaring it not the Law that is the Ministry of death.

Here we are at a new Post and I am completely lost as to why the Stone Law seems to be a matter of discussion that is very complex to nail down in theological verbiage, between you and I, in discussion.

This should be simple, from my perspective. We both agree that the 10 Commandments are the Ministry of Death. Why does this agreement fade rapidly with further discussion. Please help me understand, because it is difficult to follow in discussion when terms change in definition from post to post. I take equal responsibility for this, but want to make it clear that this discussion is currently confusing to me.

SabbathBlessings said:

My wishes are never to debate, but my hope and prayer is that we all consider the context of the passages and reconcile with the teachings of Jesus. It’s an important topic to get right Mat 5:19-30 Mat 19:17 Rom 6:16 1 John 2:3-6 Rev 22:14-15 so my apologies if you took it any other way, it is in love, but I agree there comes a time when we need to walk away and leave it to the Holy Spirit to hopefully open up our eyes so we not only understand God’s will for His children but also live it, just as Jesus lived it for our example to follow.

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The second you declare agreement to disagree as Siblings in Jesus, I will gladly accept that concept between us. I already have this concept written in my heart, but do not desire to leave you without response if you desire to discuss this to what you believe is it's fullest extent. All respect to you, my Sibling in Jesus Christ.

SabbathBlessings said:

You keep making arguments I’m not making, like you have here and other places. I already said to agree to disagree see Post 14, so you might want to go back and read my posts.

My convictions are not superior, I just never make a point to argue against Jesus. Jesus said If you love Me keep My commandments John 14:15 when asked which ones to enter into life He quotes directly from the Ten Commandments Mat 19:17-19, when He condemned the Pharisees for keeping their own rules over obeying the commandments of God He again quoted from the Ten Commandments Mat 15:4-14 Mark 7:7-13 stating ones worships in vain and their heart is far from Him, Jesus warns us not to break the least of these commandments agains quoting from the Ten Commandments and that our righteousness needs to exceed the Pharisees Mat 5:19-30 so its not that my conviction is superior to your, I just do not go against the teachings of Jesus. Nothing in the scriptures can contradict His teachings, He is the WAY and not only taught us from the Ten Commandments, He lived it for our example to follow. 1 John 2:6 so when people get hung up on Paul teachings, but never reconcile with the teachings and example of Jesus, I think it’s a dangerous place to be. Pauls words can get easily twisted but if we stick with what Jesus taught and lived, He will only lead us on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14 Not that I am against Paul’s teachings, just too many rely on them over the teachings of Jesus and we need to reconcile Paul’s teachings to Jesus, not Jesus to Paul. Paul i the servant, Jesus is our SAVIOR.

We don’t have to agree, I’m okay with that and will probably not respond further unless something new or interesting comes up. But I do wish you well in seeking Truth to God’s Word.

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You are fairly referring to this;

SabbathBlessings said:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree but hope you will consider in prayer.

God bless.

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My Sibling in Jesus Christ, We both have the TRUTH (Jesus). We both have God's Word. (Jesus). I prayerfully rejoice to consider you my Sibling in Jesus Christ and am thankful that we can Agree to Disagree and count one another Siblings in Jesus Christ.

BobRyan said:

In Matt 19 and James 2 we see the Ten Commandments quoted from
So also in Eph 6:1-2.

These are included in what the Bible calls "The Commandments of God".

They are the ministry of death/condemnation for the lost as Paul points out in Rom 3:19-20. For as 1 John 3:4 and Rom 3 say "they define what sin is" -- in other words "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 -- "By the Law comes the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:20

By contrast -- for the saints that same law "is written on the heart" Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-12

They are not the ministry of death to the saints - because under the New Covenant the commandments of God are written on heart and mind

Agreed - in the case of the lost - the Law of God that defines what sin is - condemns all the lost Rom 3:19-20

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3.

Because in that same chapter - Rom 3:31 we "establish the Law" as born-again Christians - the very same law that is in Rom 3:19-20 in the case of the lost - is "established" in the case of the saints.

Same chapter , same term, same author, same context.

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Respect to you, my Brother in Jesus for sharing how you perceive this!

All Love to you, in His beautiful name, my Sibling in Him.

- Grip

Christs Law is Love thy neighbor and depends on Christs forgiveness given and that forgiveness extended to others.

It is superior to the 10.

The 10 are old covenant.

Christ is our everything.