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If you are led by the Spirit, you are NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW

tonychanyt

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Galatians 5:

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law.
We should not read "you are not subject to the law" in isolation. This verse is meant to contrast between the Spirit and the law. In the following context, the law denotes the law of flesh. The contrast becomes Spirit vs flesh:

16 Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law [of flesh]. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
What does it mean not to be subject to the law?

It means that we are subject to (led by) the Spirit, and we are not subject to (led by) the law of flesh. We are not lawless people but under the law of Christ. Berean Study Bible 1 Corinthians 9:

21b though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ.
We are not subject to the law of the flesh. We are not under or controlled by the law of the flesh. We are under the law of Christ.

See also Against the fruit of the Spirit there is no law
 

Josheb

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Galatians 5:


We should not read "you are not subject to the law" in isolation. This verse is meant to contrast between the Spirit and the law. In the following context, the law denotes the law of flesh. The contrast becomes Spirit vs flesh:


What does it mean not to be subject to the law?

It means that we are subject to (led by) the Spirit, and we are not subject to (led by) the law of flesh. We are not lawless people but under the law of Christ. Berean Study Bible 1 Corinthians 9:


We are not subject to the law of the flesh. We are not under or controlled by the law of the flesh. We are under the law of Christ.

See also Against the fruit of the Spirit there is no law
Why then did Paul and every other New Testament writer so frequently and consistently quote from the Law and apply the Law to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ?
 
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tdidymas

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Galatians 5:


We should not read "you are not subject to the law" in isolation. This verse is meant to contrast between the Spirit and the law. In the following context, the law denotes the law of flesh. The contrast becomes Spirit vs flesh:


What does it mean not to be subject to the law?

It means that we are subject to (led by) the Spirit, and we are not subject to (led by) the law of flesh. We are not lawless people but under the law of Christ. Berean Study Bible 1 Corinthians 9:


We are not subject to the law of the flesh. We are not under or controlled by the law of the flesh. We are under the law of Christ.

See also Against the fruit of the Spirit there is no law
Not sure what you mean by "law of the flesh." In the context of Gal. 5, when Paul uses the word "law," he is talking about the 10 Commandments and all of the statutes and ordinances designed around it. Most translations render v. 18b as "you are not under the law." It means that Christians are not subject to the law's eternal consequences (i.e. lake of fire judgment). In Rom. 8:9a says, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." So every Christian has the responsibility to prove by his lifestyle that the Spirit of God lives in him/her by living after the Spirit - that is, living by faith that God is guiding their life choices. Otherwise, their conscience becomes bothersome, does it not? This is what Gal. 5:16-25 is about. Our motive for making decisions in life is based on Jesus' love, not on conformance to the 10 Commandments.
 
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Ted-01

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Not sure what you mean by "law of the flesh." In the context of Gal. 5, when Paul uses the word "law," he is talking about the 10 Commandments and all of the statutes and ordinances designed around it. Most translations render v. 18b as "you are not under the law." It means that Christians are not subject to the law's eternal consequences (i.e. lake of fire judgment). In Rom. 8:9a says, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." So every Christian has the responsibility to prove by his lifestyle that the Spirit of God lives in him/her by living after the Spirit - that is, living by faith that God is guiding their life choices. Otherwise, their conscience becomes bothersome, does it not? This is what Gal. 5:16-25 is about. Our motive for making decisions in life is based on Jesus' love, not on conformance to the 10 Commandments.
Personally, I think that Paul changed subjects.

He was talking about not being subject to the Law/Old Covenant but then goes on to talk about "walking in the Spirit (& love)" and segues into how to walk in the Spirit by not walking according to the law of the flesh.

Gal. 5:13 (segue)
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh
 
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tdidymas

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Personally, I think that Paul changed subjects.

He was talking about not being subject to the Law/Old Covenant but then goes on to talk about "walking in the Spirit (& love)" and segues into how to walk in the Spirit by not walking according to the law of the flesh.

Gal. 5:13 (segue)
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh
"Law of the flesh" is not a phrase that appears in the Bible. Are you talking about the "law of sin"?
 
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tdidymas

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Yeah, that'll work... the law of sin, in the flesh.
Paul clearly states in Rom. 8 that we who have the Spirit of God dwelling in us are NOT "in the flesh." Therefore, we must make a distinction, and not confuse terms. Sin is a term used for failing to please God; that is, failing to do God's will. Flesh is a term used for the natural body and its functions and chemistry. There is a great difference. Living "after the flesh" (Paul's phrase in Rom. 8) means to make bodily desires the master of your life. Living "after the Spirit" means to make the Spirit's guidance through God's word the master of your life, that is, living by faith. Would you agree?

And if so, we understand Paul's meaning in Gal. 5 as well, that when we see it in the same context as Rom. 8, we must conclude that anyone who lives "after the flesh" is not born of God, and their lifestyle proves it. But those who are born of God have the Spirit of God as their guide, and their lifestyle proves it, since Jesus said "by their fruit you shall know them." Would you also agree with this?

Then it follows in Paul's argument that the moral law informs us of what God's will is, and that we look to God to change our motives for making choices (cleaning the inside of the 'cup'), so that the outcome of this faith is that we are behaving in conformance with God's will. Because God promised to cleanse the hearts of His people, and we believe what He says. This is how we come to know that we are not subject to the law's condemnation. Agreed?
 
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Paul clearly states in Rom. 8 that we who have the Spirit of God dwelling in us are NOT "in the flesh." Therefore, we must make a distinction, and not confuse terms. Sin is a term used for failing to please God; that is, failing to do God's will. Flesh is a term used for the natural body and its functions and chemistry. There is a great difference. Living "after the flesh" (Paul's phrase in Rom. 8) means to make bodily desires the master of your life. Living "after the Spirit" means to make the Spirit's guidance through God's word the master of your life, that is, living by faith. Would you agree?
That's very interesting. I'm not sure if I can commit to agree because I'm not sure that I fully understand. I hope that you might be willing to clear things up for me.

You seem to be suggesting that once the Spirit of God indwells us, we are incapable of following the natural functions of the body and chemistry... is that what you are saying? You also seem to be separating following after the flesh from sin... to me, the way I understand Paul's (and other's) writing, in both Gal. 5 and Rom. 8 (and elsewhere), walking in the flesh is sin. Following those natural functions and chemistry are what I think some people refer to as the "law(s) of the flesh. Also, while Paul does seem to be teaching how and why we need to not walk in the flesh, nor allow it mastery over us, it is possible and indeed very likely, that we will be at war with our fleshly or carnal desires, all throughout our life in Christ. Do you disagree with any of this?
And if so, we understand Paul's meaning in Gal. 5 as well, that when we see it in the same context as Rom. 8, we must conclude that anyone who lives "after the flesh" is not born of God, and their lifestyle proves it. But those who are born of God have the Spirit of God as their guide, and their lifestyle proves it, since Jesus said "by their fruit you shall know them." Would you also agree with this?
Again, here you seem to be suggesting "sinless perfection" upon Salvation... but perhaps I'm misunderstanding. I'm a firm believer that we (Christians) must put on Christ and not walk according to the flesh but walk in the Spirit... but that's a daily battle. Not to forget to mention new believers who must learn all of this after having lived lives not just walking in the flesh but being taught and educated that it's proper, natural, and right to do so, according to the world's teaching. Fruit bearing trees can take years before any "good" fruit ever appears... the same can be true for born-again Christians.
Then it follows in Paul's argument that the moral law informs us of what God's will is, and that we look to God to change our motives for making choices (cleaning the inside of the 'cup'), so that the outcome of this faith is that we are behaving in conformance with God's will. Because God promised to cleanse the hearts of His people, and we believe what He says. This is how we come to know that we are not subject to the law's condemnation. Agreed?
Yes! This I do like... conditioned upon understanding the above clarification that I've asked for above. God will give us a pure heart and clean hands and renew our mind... this way He transforms us into a worthy vessel and a faithful son/steward to do His will as put away our own will. Dead to sin (and the law of the flesh) and alive to God no longer subject to the law's condemnation.
 
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tdidymas

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That's very interesting. I'm not sure if I can commit to agree because I'm not sure that I fully understand. I hope that you might be willing to clear things up for me.

You seem to be suggesting that once the Spirit of God indwells us, we are incapable of following the natural functions of the body and chemistry... is that what you are saying?
No, that would be jumping to a false conclusion. When the apostle Paul says "you are not in the flesh" he is saying that the Spirit has changed the disposition of our heart, so that we no longer have the mindset of an unbeliever. The Holy Spirit works through the gospel and our conscience to sanctify our way of life. It doesn't mean we aren't tempted to sin anymore.
You also seem to be separating following after the flesh from sin... to me, the way I understand Paul's (and other's) writing, in both Gal. 5 and Rom. 8 (and elsewhere), walking in the flesh is sin. Following those natural functions and chemistry are what I think some people refer to as the "law(s) of the flesh. Also, while Paul does seem to be teaching how and why we need to not walk in the flesh, nor allow it mastery over us, it is possible and indeed very likely, that we will be at war with our fleshly or carnal desires, all throughout our life in Christ. Do you disagree with any of this?
I object to using the phrase "law of the flesh," since it is not a biblical phrase, and it can easily be misconstrued. It's like "sinful nature" is not a biblical phrase, and people misconstrue it also.

But I never said that walking in the flesh was not sin, it's actually sinful behavior because making the body functions the master of behavior is idolatry. I'm making a distinction between flesh and sin. Flesh is not sin, but making flesh master is sin. The nature of fallen man is that he has no spiritual connection with God, and he gets in the habit and addiction to pursuing fleshly desires. Fleshly desires are not evil in themselves, but the misuse and abuse of those desires is sinful. The problem with natural man who does not have the Spirit guiding him has little other purpose than to pursue the pleasures of this life. This is the mindset of those "in the flesh" according to Paul in Rom. 8, and that the Christian is no longer in because we have a new identity to motivate us.
Again, here you seem to be suggesting "sinless perfection" upon Salvation... but perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
Yes, you are misunderstanding. Many people also misunderstand John's statement in 1 John 3:9 saying, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." This statement is not about sinless perfection, but about direction of life choices and lifestyle. Notice I said "lifestyle," so "perfection" is jumping to a false conclusion. The same apostle who wrote that also wrote "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves..." and he does not contradict himself. James also wrote "we all stumble in many ways," and notice that by saying "we" they are including themselves in it. We don't become perfect when God sanctifies us "by the sanctifying work of the Spirit." It is progressive, and there is always room for improvement.
I'm a firm believer that we (Christians) must put on Christ and not walk according to the flesh but walk in the Spirit... but that's a daily battle. Not to forget to mention new believers who must learn all of this after having lived lives not just walking in the flesh but being taught and educated that it's proper, natural, and right to do so, according to the world's teaching. Fruit bearing trees can take years before any "good" fruit ever appears... the same can be true for born-again Christians.
I agree.
Yes! This I do like... conditioned upon understanding the above clarification that I've asked for above. God will give us a pure heart and clean hands and renew our mind... this way He transforms us into a worthy vessel and a faithful son/steward to do His will as put away our own will. Dead to sin (and the law of the flesh) and alive to God no longer subject to the law's condemnation.
Again, there could be some theology behind the phrase "law of the flesh" that I don't know about, since it's not a biblical phrase. But beside that, I tend to agree.
 
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Grip Docility

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Personally, I think that Paul changed subjects.

He was talking about not being subject to the Law/Old Covenant but then goes on to talk about "walking in the Spirit (& love)" and segues into how to walk in the Spirit by not walking according to the law of the flesh.

Gal. 5:13 (segue)
13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh
They are one in the same. The Stone heart is contrasted against the Heart of Flesh that the Spirit in dwelling Gives us to walk in the Golden Rule by Him, alone.

It’s literally a cleaver way of God saying… “Have a Heart”!

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
 
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Ted-01

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No, that would be jumping to a false conclusion. When the apostle Paul says "you are not in the flesh" he is saying that the Spirit has changed the disposition of our heart, so that we no longer have the mindset of an unbeliever. The Holy Spirit works through the gospel and our conscience to sanctify our way of life. It doesn't mean we aren't tempted to sin anymore.

I object to using the phrase "law of the flesh," since it is not a biblical phrase, and it can easily be misconstrued. It's like "sinful nature" is not a biblical phrase, and people misconstrue it also.

But I never said that walking in the flesh was not sin, it's actually sinful behavior because making the body functions the master of behavior is idolatry. I'm making a distinction between flesh and sin. Flesh is not sin, but making flesh master is sin. The nature of fallen man is that he has no spiritual connection with God, and he gets in the habit and addiction to pursuing fleshly desires. Fleshly desires are not evil in themselves, but the misuse and abuse of those desires is sinful. The problem with natural man who does not have the Spirit guiding him has little other purpose than to pursue the pleasures of this life. This is the mindset of those "in the flesh" according to Paul in Rom. 8, and that the Christian is no longer in because we have a new identity to motivate us.

Yes, you are misunderstanding. Many people also misunderstand John's statement in 1 John 3:9 saying, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." This statement is not about sinless perfection, but about direction of life choices and lifestyle. Notice I said "lifestyle," so "perfection" is jumping to a false conclusion. The same apostle who wrote that also wrote "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves..." and he does not contradict himself. James also wrote "we all stumble in many ways," and notice that by saying "we" they are including themselves in it. We don't become perfect when God sanctifies us "by the sanctifying work of the Spirit." It is progressive, and there is always room for improvement.

I agree.

Again, there could be some theology behind the phrase "law of the flesh" that I don't know about, since it's not a biblical phrase. But beside that, I tend to agree.
Thank you for explaining to me your point of view so that I can understand it better and get to know you a little better.
I can tend to be a "stickler" for proper use of words and phrases, but I do it for less noble reasons.
Thanks for making me think!
 
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Grip Docility

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Why then did Paul and every other New Testament writer so frequently and consistently quote from the Law and apply the Law to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ?
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law, like one under the law—though I myself am not under the law—to win those under the law.
There are two different usages of the word LAW, between 1 Corinthians 9:20 and 1 Corinthians 9:21​
1 Corinthians 9:20​
1 Corinthians 9:21​
3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Definition: that which is assigned, usage, law
Usage: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

Just to be certain that this very Law being mentioned by Paul is the Decalogue, (10 Commandments), we find that this is the precise word that is used to pen the following verses in the same Koine Greek.

Matthew 5:17 N-AMS
GRK: καταλῦσαι τὸν νόμον ἢ τοὺς
NAS: to abolish the Law or
KJV: to destroy the law, or
INT: to abolish the law or the
Matthew 5:18 N-GMS

And...

GRK: ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου ἕως ἂν
NAS: shall pass from the Law until
KJV: pass from the law, till all
INT: from the law until anyhow​
Jesus Christ has made it possible for Paul to ensure that it is clear that he is not Under this Law because Jesus Christ fulfilled this Law.
Matthew 5:17 “Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
1772. ennomos
2 Usages
Acts 19:39 Adj-DFS
GRK: ἐν τῇ ἐννόμῳ ἐκκλησίᾳ ἐπιλυθήσεται
NAS: this, it shall be settled in the lawful assembly.
KJV: in a lawful assembly.
INT: in the lawful assembly it will be solved

1 Corinthians 9:21 Adj-NMS
GRK: θεοῦ ἀλλ' ἔννομος Χριστοῦ ἵνα
NAS: of God but under the law of Christ,
KJV: but under the law to Christ,)
INT: to God but within law to Christ that
Jesus Christ is the KING. Revelation 19:13 He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God. ... 16 And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

This is why the very structure of James 2:8 Indeed, if you keep the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well.

James 2:8 defines the ROYAL LAW as specifically "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Under this Law, it then specifies that if Love is given partially based on Carnal Judgment that the ROYAL LAW is transgressed, which then rolls the individual under the LAW of FREEDOM (James 2:12) back under the Law of Stone that leads to sin and death (Hebrews 2:14, 1 Corinthians 15:54,55,56, 2 Corinthians 3:7).

Jesus lays the foundation for this understanding in John 8:15 You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man.
The Stone Law requires Carnal obedience that other men can visibly see and judge.​
Romans 2:16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.​
The Love within a person's heart and the motives behind it can only be discerned by God. This is why the Royal Law is only fully observable by Jesus Christ's knowledge of each individuals human "heart" (Soul).​

21 To those who are without that law, like one without the law—not being without God’s law but within Christ’s law—to win those without the law.
Here the very Greek supports that Paul is calling Jesus Christ's Law the Law of God or "God's Law".​

Christ's Law (John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”​
Again, Jesus Christ, The King of king's, ROYAL LAW;
James 2:8 Indeed, if you keep the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well.​
 
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Josheb

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20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law, like one under the law—though I myself am not under the law—to win those under the law.
There are two different usages of the word LAW, between 1 Corinthians 9:20 and 1 Corinthians 9:21​
1 Corinthians 9:20​
1 Corinthians 9:21​
3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Definition: that which is assigned, usage, law
Usage: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

Just to be certain that this very Law being mentioned by Paul is the Decalogue, (10 Commandments), we find that this is the precise word that is used to pen the following verses in the same Koine Greek.

Matthew 5:17 N-AMS
GRK: καταλῦσαι τὸν νόμον ἢ τοὺς
NAS: to abolish the Law or
KJV: to destroy the law, or
INT: to abolish the law or the
Matthew 5:18 N-GMS

And...

GRK: ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου ἕως ἂν
NAS: shall pass from the Law until
KJV: pass from the law, till all
INT: from the law until anyhow​
Jesus Christ has made it possible for Paul to ensure that it is clear that he is not Under this Law because Jesus Christ fulfilled this Law.
Matthew 5:17 “Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
1772. ennomos
2 Usages
Acts 19:39 Adj-DFS
GRK: ἐν τῇ ἐννόμῳ ἐκκλησίᾳ ἐπιλυθήσεται
NAS: this, it shall be settled in the lawful assembly.
KJV: in a lawful assembly.
INT: in the lawful assembly it will be solved

1 Corinthians 9:21 Adj-NMS
GRK: θεοῦ ἀλλ' ἔννομος Χριστοῦ ἵνα
NAS: of God but under the law of Christ,
KJV: but under the law to Christ,)
INT: to God but within law to Christ that
Jesus Christ is the KING. Revelation 19:13 He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God. ... 16 And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

This is why the very structure of James 2:8 Indeed, if you keep the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well.

James 2:8 defines the ROYAL LAW as specifically "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Under this Law, it then specifies that if Love is given partially based on Carnal Judgment that the ROYAL LAW is transgressed, which then rolls the individual under the LAW of FREEDOM (James 2:12) back under the Law of Stone that leads to sin and death (Hebrews 2:14, 1 Corinthians 15:54,55,56, 2 Corinthians 3:7).

Jesus lays the foundation for this understanding in John 8:15 You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man.
The Stone Law requires Carnal obedience that other men can visibly see and judge.​
Romans 2:16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.​
The Love within a person's heart and the motives behind it can only be discerned by God. This is why the Royal Law is only fully observable by Jesus Christ's knowledge of each individuals human "heart" (Soul).​

21 To those who are without that law, like one without the law—not being without God’s law but within Christ’s law—to win those without the law.
Here the very Greek supports that Paul is calling Jesus Christ's Law the Law of God or "God's Law".​

Christ's Law (John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”​
Again, Jesus Christ, The King of king's, ROYAL LAW;
James 2:8 Indeed, if you keep the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well.​
Nice post.

Unblessedly, it does not address the points made in Post #2. The different uses of "Law" does not make them wholly distinct from one another. That would be a false dichotomy and false dichotomies are always and everywhere logically fallacious, NOT a correct rendering of whole scripture. Look, the effort is commendable, and I appreciate it but Post 12 does not actually answer the question asked. It addresses a question not asked. One of the objectively verifiable and unassailable facts of the entire New Testament is that the NT writers frequently cited the Law and chronically applied to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ. They just did not do so as a means of obtaining justification or righteousness (that detail escapes many Christians).

Give the question another try, and answer the question asked, not a question not asked.
 
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Grip Docility

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Nice post.
Thank you
Unblessedly, it does not address the points made in Post #2.
In my opinion it did.
The different uses of "Law" does not make them wholly distinct from one another.
It does, by the very usage of the words in biblical context, which matches this same dichotomy in James 2. In my opinion.
That would be a false dichotomy and false dichotomies are always and everywhere logically fallacious,
Using the word fallacious and opining on something doesn't make it factually fallacious, in my opinion.
NOT a correct rendering of whole scripture.
I respectfully disagree.
Look, the effort is commendable
Thank you
, and I appreciate it but Post 12 does not actually answer the question asked.
In my opinion, it did.
It addresses a question not asked.
I learned that approach from the King of king's. Sometimes questions are better than answers, in my opinion.
One of the objectively verifiable and unassailable facts of the entire New Testament is that the NT writers frequently cited the Law and chronically applied to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ.
Galatians disagrees, in my opinion.
They just did not do so as a means of obtaining justification or righteousness (that detail escapes many Christians).
Galatians 4 says cast out the slave woman and her son born on Sinai, which persecute the Woman and Child of Faith, does it not?
Give the question another try, and answer the question asked, not a question not asked.
?
 
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Josheb

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Give the question another try, and answer the question asked, not a question not asked.
This is now twice in two separate threads in which a question asked was not answered.

Here in this thread the question asked was not asked of you. It was asked of @tonychanyt AND it was asked of Tony because of specific content Tony specifically posted in Tony's post. It was also asked explicitly of Tony because Tony has a looonng running history in multiple Christian forums of posting ops and not discussing them. When he does discuss them, he often appeals to his own reddit posts as proof of this posts' veracity. It it an incestuous appeal to authority - the supposed authority of himself. The question asked is explicitly predicated on things Tony stated in Tony's op.

While it is true anyone has liberty to respond to any post anytime the want, in any way they like, it is never true any poster can presume to speak for another. I asked Tony for Tony's view because I wanted Tony's view and not that of some presuming to speak for Tony. The liberty we ALL have to post as we see fit always exists within various contexts, like those stipulated in scripture and/or those stipulated in the forum's tou. In this case I will ask you to reflect upon Proverbs 26:17.

Proverbs 26:17
Like one who takes a dog by the ears Is he who passes by and meddles with strife not belonging to him.

The relevance of this verse is made apparent by the fact the question asked was not answered. The question asked was,
Why then did Paul and every other New Testament writer so frequently and consistently quote from the Law and apply the Law to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ?
And your first answer to that was,
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews; to those under the law, like one under the law—though I myself am not under the law—to win those under the law.
There are two different usages of the word LAW, between 1 Corinthians 9:20 and 1 Corinthians 9:21....​
Which is not an answer to the specific question asked. A bunch of scripture was posted, but the question asked was not answered. So, I asked you to give answering the question asked another try. The second attempt is,
So that is the second time the question asked has gone unanswered as you presume to answer a question asked of another poster, not you. Despite the fact the question was asked to @tonychanyt specifically in regard to statements made in Tony's op, I will give you one more opportunity to answer the question asked. Please answer the question asked and answer it without further delay or obfuscation. Remember what I said to you in the other thread: Method is just as important as content. It is impossible to have a cogent, intelligent conversation with anyone who never answers questions asked (or those who presume to speak for others). If the answer is, "I do not know," then say that. An honest and forthcoming acknowledgment is much better than the non-answers currently posted.


Why then did Paul and every other New Testament writer so frequently and consistently quote from the Law and apply the Law to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ?
 
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Grip Docility

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This is now twice in two separate threads in which a question asked was not answered.

Here in this thread the question asked was not asked of you. It was asked of @tonychanyt AND it was asked of Tony because of specific content Tony specifically posted in Tony's post. It was also asked explicitly of Tony because Tony has a looonng running history in multiple Christian forums of posting ops and not discussing them. When he does discuss them, he often appeals to his own reddit posts as proof of this posts' veracity. It it an incestuous appeal to authority - the supposed authority of himself. The question asked is explicitly predicated on things Tony stated in Tony's op.

While it is true anyone has liberty to respond to any post anytime the want, in any way they like, it is never true any poster can presume to speak for another. I asked Tony for Tony's view because I wanted Tony's view and not that of some presuming to speak for Tony. The liberty we ALL have to post as we see fit always exists within various contexts, like those stipulated in scripture and/or those stipulated in the forum's tou. In this case I will ask you to reflect upon Proverbs 26:17.

Proverbs 26:17
Like one who takes a dog by the ears Is he who passes by and meddles with strife not belonging to him.

The relevance of this verse is made apparent by the fact the question asked was not answered. The question asked was,

And your first answer to that was,

Which is not an answer to the specific question asked. A bunch of scripture was posted, but the question asked was not answered. So, I asked you to give answering the question asked another try. The second attempt is,

So that is the second time the question asked has gone unanswered as you presume to answer a question asked of another poster, not you. Despite the fact the question was asked to @tonychanyt specifically in regard to statements made in Tony's op, I will give you one more opportunity to answer the question asked. Please answer the question asked and answer it without further delay or obfuscation. Remember what I said to you in the other thread: Method is just as important as content. It is impossible to have a cogent, intelligent conversation with anyone who never answers questions asked (or those who presume to speak for others). If the answer is, "I do not know," then say that. An honest and forthcoming acknowledgment is much better than the non-answers currently posted.


Why then did Paul and every other New Testament writer so frequently and consistently quote from the Law and apply the Law to both Jewish and Gentile converts to Christ?
My sibling in Jesus, in my opinion, I find these words needing compassion and peace. I'm going to give you posting space and remove myself from dialogue with you.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you, sibling in Him.
 
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Soyeong

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Galatians 5:


We should not read "you are not subject to the law" in isolation. This verse is meant to contrast between the Spirit and the law. In the following context, the law denotes the law of flesh. The contrast becomes Spirit vs flesh:


What does it mean not to be subject to the law?

It means that we are subject to (led by) the Spirit, and we are not subject to (led by) the law of flesh. We are not lawless people but under the law of Christ. Berean Study Bible 1 Corinthians 9:


We are not subject to the law of the flesh. We are not under or controlled by the law of the flesh. We are under the law of Christ.

See also Against the fruit of the Spirit there is no law
In Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed are works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while everything listed are fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, so it would be absurd to interpret that passage as saying that we are not under the Law of God when we are led by the Spirit and are now free to partake it what it reveals to be the desires of the flesh.
 
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TahitiRun

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There are two different usages of the word LAW, between 1 Corinthians 9:20 and 1 Corinthians 9:21​
Actually, without trying to interrupt the thread, a quick read of the text shows Paul using five Greek terms translated as "law" or "the law".

Here are the actual texts and the terms under consideration:

1Co 9:20 καὶ ἐγενόμην τοῖς ᾿Ιουδαίοις ὡς ᾿Ιουδαῖος, ἵνα ᾿Ιουδαίους κερδήσω· τοῖς ὑπὸ νόμον ὡς ὑπὸ νόμον, ἵνα τοὺς ὑπὸ νόμον κερδήσω·

1Co 9:21 τοῖς ἀνόμοις ὡς ἄνομος, μὴ ὢν ἄνομος Θεῷ, ἀλλ᾿ ἔννομος Χριστῷ, ἵνα κερδήσω ἀνόμους·

The five Greek terms, in order of occurrence, are:

1. νόμον (three times in 1Co 9:20, each time without the article)

2. ἀνόμοις (once in 1Co 9:21, without the article)

3. ἄνομος (twice in 1Co 9:21, each time without the article)

4. ἔννομος (once in 1Co 9:21, without the article)

5. ἀνόμους (once in 1Co 9:21, without the article)

If we examine each of the terms used, we find the following:

1. νόμον: a noun that means (within NT usage) "law".

2. ἀνόμοις: an adjective used in the dative case (ie: to/at) that means "lawless".

3. ἄνομος: an adjective used in the nominative case (ie: subject) that means "lawless".

4. ἔννομος: an adjective used in the nominative case that means "lawful or statutory".

5. ἀνόμους: an adjective in the accusative case (ie: motion towards) that means "lawless".

Also of particular note: English translations will often insert the definite article ("the") where no article is actually used in the Greek text. This has the unfortunate result of needlessly obfuscating scripture through the use of the "my way or the highway" translation approach. The scriptural "highway" being preferable to the "my way" translations.

Although lack of the article in the Greek text does not necessarily imply indefinite usage of a term, inserting the article dogmatically or doing so for doctrinal purposes is really unwarranted. Contextually, there should be strong evidence or at the very least a grammatical need by the target language for using articles where none are found.

The same can be said of the OP text in Gal 5:18, shown here:

Gal 5:18 εἰ δὲ πνευματι ἄγεσθε, οὐκ ἐστὲ ὑπὸ νόμον.

Here, there is no article being used with "πνευματι" or "νόμον".

It's not "the Spirit" (ie: the "Holy Spirit" or perhaps the "Spirit" of Christ) but rather simply "spirit" (ie: "breath" of God that animates all living beings, Gen 2:7).

Likewise, within the second clause, it's not "the Law" (the Law of Moses perhaps ?), but rather simply "law", law being contextually undefined and to be interpreted accordingly by the reader.

With that understanding, Gal 5:18 reads: "and if by spirit you are led, you are not under law". This reading, which I believe is the correct reading of the text, presents a much different understanding of what Paul wrote.

Anyway, back to the thread...
 
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HIM

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Galatians 5:


We should not read "you are not subject to the law" in isolation. This verse is meant to contrast between the Spirit and the law. In the following context, the law denotes the law of flesh. The contrast becomes Spirit vs flesh:


What does it mean not to be subject to the law?

It means that we are subject to (led by) the Spirit, and we are not subject to (led by) the law of flesh. We are not lawless people but under the law of Christ. Berean Study Bible 1 Corinthians 9:


We are not subject to the law of the flesh. We are not under or controlled by the law of the flesh. We are under the law of Christ.

See also Against the fruit of the Spirit there is no law
If we are not sinning through Christ. But if we are then the Law is for us. For the Law is for the sinner.
 
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