"Teaching the Bible" in Public Schools?

Stephen3141 · Jun 28, 2024

Again, Protestant Fundamentalists do not distinguish between teaching the Judea-Christian moral-ethical (ME) system, and "teaching the Bible".

In general, the Judea-Christian ME model is compatible with the concepts of reality, evidence, a fair rule of law, and justice, that the founding American documents uphold. (These are not compatible with Trump's view of reality and morality.)

But this is not what Protestant Fundamentalists want. They want their own theology taught. And that, is not teaching a generally accepted ME model.

As long as the Protestant Fundamentalists demand that their own theology is taught in American schools, this will be a violation of church and state, under the founding America documents. It will also not be in agreement with the sacramental form of Christianity, of the first 4 centuries. (That is, this theology does not agree with the other major European Christian groups coming out of Europe -- Catholic and Lutheran.)

The anti-intellectualism of many of the Christian groups that want to dictate what is taught in public schools, disqualifies them from deciding the intellectual curricula of schools.

That's the core problem.

Oklahoma's top education official orders schools to teach the Bible

Maria Billingsley · Jun 28, 2024

Stephen3141 said:
Again, Protestant Fundamentalists do not distinguish between teaching the Judea-Christian moral-ethical (ME) system, and "teaching the Bible".

In general, the Judea-Christian ME model is compatible with the concepts of reality, evidence, a fair rule of law, and justice, that the founding American documents uphold. (These are not compatible with Trump's view of reality and morality.)

But this is not what Protestant Fundamentalists want. They want their own theology taught. And that, is not teaching a generally accepted ME model.

As long as the Protestant Fundamentalists demand that their own theology is taught in American schools, this will be a violation of church and state, under the founding America documents. It will also not be in agreement with the sacramental form of Christianity, of the first 4 centuries. (That is, this theology does not agree with the other major European Christian groups coming out of Europe -- Catholic and Lutheran.)

The anti-intellectualism of many of the Christian groups that want to dictate what is taught in public schools, disqualifies them from deciding the intellectual curricula of schools.

That's the core problem.

Oklahoma's top education official orders schools to teach the Bible

And what about the Koran, Book of Mormon, Vedas etc.? Soon these books will have to make their way into public schools . Beware of what you ask for.

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 28, 2024

Stephen3141 said:
Again, Protestant Fundamentalists do not distinguish between teaching the Judea-Christian moral-ethical (ME) system, and "teaching the Bible".

In general, the Judea-Christian ME model is compatible with the concepts of reality, evidence, a fair rule of law, and justice, that the founding American documents uphold. (These are not compatible with Trump's view of reality and morality.)

But this is not what Protestant Fundamentalists want. They want their own theology taught. And that, is not teaching a generally accepted ME model.

As long as the Protestant Fundamentalists demand that their own theology is taught in American schools, this will be a violation of church and state, under the founding America documents. It will also not be in agreement with the sacramental form of Christianity, of the first 4 centuries. (That is, this theology does not agree with the other major European Christian groups coming out of Europe -- Catholic and Lutheran.)

The anti-intellectualism of many of the Christian groups that want to dictate what is taught in public schools, disqualifies them from deciding the intellectual curricula of schools.

That's the core problem.

Oklahoma's top education official orders schools to teach the Bible

Ironic, yet predictable. The anti-science, anti-intellectual segment wants to tamper with the education process.

Wouldn't it be so much better if a comparative ethic curriculum introduced moral principles from across cultures. because the important fundamentals are pretty much universal.

okay · Jun 28, 2024

The sequence of events in Oklahoma is telling. First, add the acknowledgement of a 'Creator' to the education department's official values. Then mandate that the bible will be taught in all schools for grades 5-12, specifying that the teaching must include the 10 commandments which specify who that 'Creator' is and that he alone is to be worshipped. I don't see how that doesn't violate the US and Oklahoma constitutions.

Akita Suggagaki said:
Ironic, yet predictable. The anti-science, anti-intellectual segment wants to tamper with the education process.

Wouldn't it be so much better if a comparative ethic curriculum introduced moral principles from across cultures. because the important fundamentals are pretty much universal.

Fully agree.

Since this is to be in effect for the 2024-2025 school year, I doubt there will be time to carefully craft the curricula for the different grade levels (not that I am convinced the proponents had anything in mind beyond exerting their power). I fear it will be a free-for-all that will mostly damage the witness of the Gospel in this country. I hope I'm wrong. If I were a teacher in OK, I would postpone the bible unit until the end of the school year to give the inevitable lawsuits time to work through the courts.

The article mentions that this superintendent hired a PR firm (at taxpayer expense, of course) to help him get national media attention. I guess it worked...

dzheremi · Jun 28, 2024

In an American public school context, "Putting the Bible (back) in schools" has never been about anything other than maintaining the hegemony that certain kinds of Protestants apparently think is their birthright (because they're "Bible-believing" Christians or whatever; I guess the rest of us are chopped liver), all while complaining that anything that they personally disagree with is "indoctrination" or "programming" of students. Bah.

Stephen3141 · Jun 28, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
Ironic, yet predictable. The anti-science, anti-intellectual segment wants to tamper with the education process.

Wouldn't it be so much better if a comparative ethic curriculum introduced moral principles from across cultures. because the important fundamentals are pretty much universal.

I prefer that schools taught philosophical Moral Theory, and the most common 7-8 models of
morality-ethics (ME).

These models take in most of the belief systems in human history.
And studying these models is more enlightening (I think), than arguing
over individual virtues and vices.

Some of these models are disastrous (such as embracing a model in which all
ME values are relative), as they are not compatible with any fair rule of law
or concepts of justice.

Many cultures and religions have embraced the same virtues and vices, and
so this agreement can be taught, without being accused of teaching a
specific religion.

A good source book is...

Moral Theory book by Mark Timmons

Handmaid for Jesus · Jun 28, 2024

Maria Billingsley said:
And what about the Koran, Book of Mormon, Vedas etc.? Soon these books will have to make their way into public schools . Beware of what you ask for.

QFT!

.

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 28, 2024

Stephen3141 said:
I prefer that schools taught philosophical Moral Theory, and the most common 7-8 models of
morality-ethics (ME).

Yes. And I am reminded of Aesop's fables. Moral principles put in simple narratives for even the smallest children.

I learned most of them through cartoons.

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 28, 2024

And, BTW, what is the principle message to be learned in the life of Christ? Love? Self sacrifice? Compassion? Dying to self? Service? Agape?

Does anyone think these will be the emphases of "Teaching the Bible in Public Schools"?

I doubt it.

dzheremi · Jun 28, 2024

I dunno. I had to learn about Islam (the Qur'an, the "five pillars", etc.) in a history class at my very non-religious public high school, and I think I came out fine. Granted, this was before 9/11, so people couldn't just screech "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE QUR'AN!" as a scare tactic and expect to be taken seriously...

JimR-OCDS · Jun 28, 2024

If they teach how the US was founded and what the founding fathers
believed, they'll have to show the book of Exodus from the Bible.

Fact is, both Jefferson and Franklin proposed the national seal to
that of the children of Israel fleeing Egypt.

The founding father's often quoted the Old Testament in their writings and
such.

So, post the Ten Commandments, why not? Show me one of the commandments
you oppose.

Post the teachings of Jesus Christ, especially the Beatitudes. Show me which one
you oppose.

Only Judeo/Christianity teach what was given by God and which has built the West.

I'd rather they have the Bible in public schools, then the books on homosexuality
and transgenderism that are no used.

okay · Jun 28, 2024

Maria Billingsley said:
And what about the Koran, Book of Mormon, Vedas etc.? Soon these books will have to make their way into public schools . Beware of what you ask for.

I would be fine with a comparative study of religions that includes those texts, since that doesn't seem to violate the constitution.

I do think it is possible to use the bible in a public school in a way that is constitutional, but just mandating that it be taught with no real guidelines or curriculum seems like a recipe for violations of the law.

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 28, 2024

JimR-OCDS said:
So, post the Ten Commandments, why not? Show me one of the commandments
you oppose.

It would raise the question of what day is really the Sabbath.

okay · Jun 28, 2024

JimR-OCDS said:
So, post the Ten Commandments, why not? Show me one of the commandments
you oppose.

I don’t oppose any of them. But like most Christians I violate the sabbath, and oppose the biblical punishment for that violation. I don’t want to get stoned in either sense of the word, but if I had to choose I would pick the one that wasn’t guaranteed to kill me

.

I do oppose violating the constitution, and that is what this story looks like to me.

okay · Jun 28, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
It would raise the question of what day is really the Sabbath.

Someone once gave me a tract that claimed Sunday worship not only violates the sabbath but is the mark of the beast. Since OK is unlikely to have any real curriculum in place by the start of the school year, a teacher with those beliefs may feel empowered to share them with their students.

Might make for interesting conversations around the family dinner table next year. “Johnny, what did you learn in school today?”

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 28, 2024

okay said:
“Johnny, what did you learn in school today?”

I learned that you violate one of the Ten Commandments and are going to Hell. Pass the potatoes, please.

Tuur · Jun 28, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
Ironic, yet predictable. The anti-science, anti-intellectual segment wants to tamper with the education process.

Wouldn't it be so much better if a comparative ethic curriculum introduced moral principles from across cultures. because the important fundamentals are pretty much universal.

Ah, the joys of a Christian forum. You can just feel the love for different denominations.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 29, 2024

Maria Billingsley said:
And what about the Koran, Book of Mormon, Vedas etc.? Soon these books will have to make their way into public schools . Beware of what you ask for.

Sounds like the problem Is treating all religions equally.

JimR-OCDS · Jun 29, 2024

okay said:
I don’t oppose any of them. But like most Christians I violate the sabbath, and oppose the biblical punishment for that violation. I don’t want to get stoned in either sense of the word, but if I had to choose I would pick the one that wasn’t guaranteed to kill me .

I do oppose violating the constitution, and that is what this story looks like to me.

The Ten Commandments don't call for stoning those who violate the Sabbath, other parts of the OT may, but not the commandments themself. If you are Christian, the Christian Church observes the Lord's Day, as the Sabbath.
If not, well it doesn't hurt you. The other commandments were written into our laws at one time. They've slowly
been removed.

As Jesus taught, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The Church had every right in
making Sunday, the day of Christ's resurrection, as the Sabbath.

Here in MA, we used to have blue laws which mandated closing of retail businesses on Sundays and Holidays.
Atheists demanded an end to that. Now, people are forced to work in retail businesses on Sundays and Holidays,
and secularism dominates society and of course, brings all the problems that societies which abandoned God bring
upon themselves.

okay · Jun 29, 2024

JimR-OCDS said:
Here in MA, we used to have blue laws which mandated closing of retail businesses on Sundays and Holidays.
Atheists demanded an end to that. Now, people are forced to work in retail businesses on Sundays and Holidays,
and secularism dominates society and of course, brings all the problems that societies which abandoned God bring
upon themselves.

I'm also in MA! Yes, retail is exempt from blue laws, although for many retailers they cannot require workers to take shifts on Sunday - it has to be voluntary. Of course there are exceptions (as well as other kinds of businesses that still have restrictions)

https://www.mass.gov/guides/working-on-sundays-and-holidays-blue-laws

I thought the exceptions were mostly the result of businesses lobbying lawmakers in the interest of the almighty dollar, but I could be wrong. Do you have a reference regarding your comment about atheists?

I used to have a coworker that was Jewish, so on Friday she left very early to prepare for the Sabbath. She made up the time by working a few hours on .... Sunday. That should not be illegal. Heck, she actually follows the ten commandments in their original meaning, unlike most Christians.

Jason

"Teaching the Bible" in Public Schools?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

Well-Known Member

You can't steal my joy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Dissident

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

Active Member

Similar threads