Hillary Clinton's plan for Automatic Green Cards for foreign college graduates is revived for 2024 -- “You’d turn colleges into visa mills”

essentialsaltes · Jun 21, 2024

Trump pledges green cards for college grads, reviving a Hillary Clinton idea

“You’d turn colleges into visa mills,” one advocate of restricting immigration said.

“What I wanted to do, and what I will do is, you graduate from a college, I think you should get automatically as part of your diploma a green card to be able to stay in this country,” Trump said in an interview on a podcast titled “All-In” released today. A green card is the colloquial term for legal permanent residency.

Trump went on to specify that he would apply the policy to anyone attending a two- or four-year college.

Trump previously expressed support in 2015 for green cards for college graduates. But the idea was more widely associated with Hillary Clinton, his Democratic opponent, whose campaign website said she would “staple” a green card to master’s and doctoral diplomas in science, technology, engineering and math. The proposal was attacked by immigration hard-liners in Trump’s camp, including the far-right website Breitbart and then-Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.), who became Trump’s attorney general.

Trump campaign spokeswoman Karoline Leavitt clarified ... “This would only apply to the most thoroughly vetted college graduates who would never undercut American wages or workers.” [How does that work exactly? These are not the farm laborers and construction workers doing jobs Americans generally don't. These are people with college degrees.]

wing2000 · Jun 21, 2024

essentialsaltes said:
Trump campaign spokeswoman Karoline Leavitt clarified ... “This would only apply to the most thoroughly vetted college graduates who would never undercut American wages or workers.” [How does that work exactly? These are not the farm laborers and construction workers doing jobs Americans generally don't. These are people with college degrees.]

...was wondering the same thing...

Pommer · Jun 21, 2024

Great idea!
Who wants to start a diploma/visa mill?

Fantine · Jun 21, 2024

Many foreign students come from very wealthy families, and if you invest $500,000 in the U.S. you can get an automatic green card. Jared Kushner did that for a number of Chinese businesspeople who invested in his building at 666 Fifth Avenue.

essentialsaltes · Jun 23, 2024

Trump keeps flip-flopping his policy positions after meeting with rich people

Donald Trump privately hinted at a shift in immigration policy at a Business Roundtable meeting last week. He told the group “we need brilliant people” in this country, according to one of the attendees, who was granted anonymity to describe a private meeting. And when he talked about finding ways to keep American-educated talent at home, some top CEOs, like Apple’s Tim Cook, were seen nodding their heads.

The public move came a week later: On “The All-In Podcast” on Thursday, Trump said foreign nationals who graduate from U.S. colleges and universities should “automatically” be given a green card upon graduation.

It was the latest major policy shift from a candidate who has proven equal parts hardline and chameleon-like over time. Trump’s pivot on immigration followed his reversal on TikTok, embracing an app he once tried to ban, and his shift on cryptocurrency.

Donald Trump does a TikTok FlipFlop after meeting with Billionaire Tiktok Investor/GOP Donor

essentialsaltes said:
Billionaire Winklevoss twins donate $1m each to Trump as champion of cryptocurrency
The Winklevoss brothers are each worth $2.7bn, according to Forbes. They have been grappling with a crypto crackdown, amid the wider fallout from the collapse of Sam Bankman-Fried’s FTX exchange.

Tyler Winklevoss also posted a lengthy critique of Joe Biden’s policies on crypto. “It’s time to take our country back,” he declared. “It’s time for the crypto army to send a message to Washington. That attacking us is political suicide.”

C'mon America, let's stick it to the elites and help these billionaire techbros make more money!

ThatRobGuy · Jun 23, 2024

Obviously we can't discount the fact that Trump can be quite fickle on matters (and it wouldn't be the first time he turned on a dime as merely opposing a Democrat idea equates to instant social credit among certain right-wing circles; IE: if a prominent Democrat says the sky is blue, a Republican could get a round of applause at a rally by saying "no it's not")

But I wonder if this subtle difference is what's partially driving it:

essentialsaltes said:
Trump went on to specify that he would apply the policy to anyone attending a two- or four-year college.

Trump previously expressed support in 2015 for green cards for college graduates. But the idea was more widely associated with Hillary Clinton, his Democratic opponent, whose campaign website said she would “staple” a green card to master’s and doctoral diplomas in science

There's a difference in perceptions with regards to "elitism" when discussing "2-year & 4-year" institutions vs. when people are discussing Masters and Doctoral degrees.

And when comparing 2015 to now, there's definitely been a shift in perception among certain pockets of the right with regards to people who have advanced degrees in science, as "Doctoral Degrees in Science" became semi-synonymous with "the people who made the recommendations that led to me getting laid off and being forced to stay locked up in my house in 2020" in the eyes of a lot of folks in the GOP.

Obviously on certain scientific topics, the GOP base hasn't had a great relationship with the science community (climate change stands out as a notable example), but I'd say covid made that "relationship" even more strained.

Academia itself has become hot button issue as well with proposals for cancelling out student loans.

I would guess that many (who may not have seen it this way in 2015) now see it as "if degree = green card, and someone's talking about using tax payer funds to bail out student loans every 4 weeks, it's tantamount to us paying for someone else to get a green card"

comana · Jun 23, 2024

How about instead of courting wealthy foreign students to fill our universities and our jobs, let’s educate our own high school grads via affordable college education.

ThatRobGuy · Jun 23, 2024

comana said:
How about instead of courting wealthy foreign students to fill our universities and our jobs, let’s educate our own high school grads via affordable college education.

I'd prefer we focus more on changing perceptions about college degrees being "necessary" for anything and everything... and start promoting more vocational training.

There's only a few career paths out there that actually warrant a college degree requirement. For most jobs (even ones in professional settings), on-the-job training or a year or two of vocational training would be sufficient.

The idea that we've accepted it as "normal" that a middle management job at a rental car place should require a 4-year degree is kind of silly when you think about it.

comana · Jun 23, 2024

ThatRobGuy said:
I'd prefer we focus more on changing perceptions about college degrees being "necessary" for anything and everything... and start promoting more vocational training.

There's only a few career paths out there that actually warrant a college degree requirement. For most jobs (even ones in professional settings), on-the-job training or a year or two of vocational training would be sufficient.

The idea that we've accepted it as "normal" that a middle management job at a rental car place should require a 4-year degree is kind of silly when you think about it.

I am in full agreement, however, just about any decent paying job does require some form of training/ education beyond HS. Even trade schools have become overpriced.

essentialsaltes · Jun 23, 2024

comana said:
How about instead of courting wealthy foreign students to fill our universities and our jobs,

From a certain perspective, that's foreign money coming in to the country.

comana said:
let’s educate our own high school grads via affordable college education.

From a certain perspective, that's taxpayer money flowing out to people who need to just lift themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Roman57 · Jun 23, 2024

ThatRobGuy said:
Obviously we can't discount the fact that Trump can be quite fickle on matters (and it wouldn't be the first time he turned on a dime as merely opposing a Democrat idea equates to instant social credit among certain right-wing circles; IE: if a prominent Democrat says the sky is blue, a Republican could get a round of applause at a rally by saying "no it's not")

But I wonder if this subtle difference is what's partially driving it:

There's a difference in perceptions with regards to "elitism" when discussing "2-year & 4-year" institutions vs. when people are discussing Masters and Doctoral degrees.

And when comparing 2015 to now, there's definitely been a shift in perception among certain pockets of the right with regards to people who have advanced degrees in science, as "Doctoral Degrees in Science" became semi-synonymous with "the people who made the recommendations that led to me getting laid off and being forced to stay locked up in my house in 2020" in the eyes of a lot of folks in the GOP.

Obviously on certain scientific topics, the GOP base hasn't had a great relationship with the science community (climate change stands out as a notable example), but I'd say covid made that "relationship" even more strained.

Academia itself has become hot button issue as well with proposals for cancelling out student loans.

I would guess that many (who may not have seen it this way in 2015) now see it as "if degree = green card, and someone's talking about using tax payer funds to bail out student loans every 4 weeks, it's tantamount to us paying for someone else to get a green card"

So the jist of what you are saying is that Hillary Clinton wanted to give greencard foreigners with advanced degrees white Donald Trump wants to give greencards to foreigners who are current students, including current community college students. And you linked it to strained relationship between Républicain party and science community.

But here is the question it leads to. From what i assumed earlier, the people democrats want to help and républicains dont are people without éducation, not with. Think of affirmative action. Blacks who studied well wont need it; its purpose is to help blacks who didnt study well. Or think of higher taxes. They would, statistically, hurt people that studied well to help people that didnt study well. Or even think of building the wall. Was the wall meant to protect us from highly éducated Mexicans? No, it was meant to protect us from the ones without education.

Thats why its so surprising why, when the topic of education becomes more explicit, then suddenly Democrats side with the educated ones and Republicans don't. And it is even more surprising when it surpasses their disagreements about the minorities to the point that Trump is willing to help the Mexicans that go to community college (and potentially a lot more similar to the minorities he would normally be against) yet he would still not want to support the educated ones.

Pommer · Jun 23, 2024

Roman57 said:
Think of affirmative action. Blacks who studied well wont need it; its purpose is to help blacks who didnt study well.

I think this premise is faulty.

BCP1928 · Jun 23, 2024

comana said:
How about instead of courting wealthy foreign students to fill our universities and our jobs, let’s educate our own high school grads via affordable college education.

Lack of qualified applicants. Foreign high school graduates don't need remedial work to do college-level work.

comana · Jun 23, 2024

BCP1928 said:
Lack of qualified applicants. Foreign high school graduates don't need remedial work to do college-level work.

That’s what community college helps with. Universities should not be admitting academically under qualified students.

BCP1928 · Jun 23, 2024

comana said:
That’s what community college helps with. Universities should not be admitting academically under qualified students.

One hopes so, but junior colleges have a more important role than remediating failed high school educations. In most of the rest of the world, a person who completes secondary school is considered qualified to take up genteel occupations--management training programs, commercial sales, officer candidate schools, things like that which we require a bachelor's degree for in this country. Consequently, their secondary school training is much more robust and appropriate for entering the working world then ours. It also makes them better qualified to do university-level work. They don't assume when planning their curricula and training their teachers that you have to go on to college to actually learn anything.

BCP1928 · Jun 23, 2024

comana said:
I am in full agreement, however, just about any decent paying job does require some form of training/ education beyond HS. Even trade schools have become overpriced.

Yes. they are overcharging for what mostly used to be taught at the secondary level. I don't blame them. I'm a workforce development specialist (retired). I spent much of my career teaching adults subjects that they were alleged to have mastered in high school but didn't. I made more money than a high school teacher with better facilities and working conditions as well as smaller class sizes than any high school. The joke is, the Conservative think they have it figured out that our schools have failed because students spend all their days sitting around and being groomed by sexual deviants and they want charter schools, voucher schools. Take out the woke! It won't work like they think. The schools aren't failing because they are "woke." They were failing before that and they will still be failing after.

Hans Blaster · Jun 23, 2024

BCP1928 said:
One hopes so, but junior colleges have a more important role than remediating failed high school educations.

There are two kinds of non-4-year post-secondary institutions (with some overlap):

2-year colleges and technical colleges or trade schools.

Tech colleges (or trade schools) typically prepare students for a specific profession that requires specialized training before starting that is not covered in HS. Things like dental hygenist, auto mechanic, electrician, printer, x-ray technician, etc.

2-year colleges focus on what is covered in general education requirements of US universities. Their students include local HS grads who want to save money on lower tuition and living at home during the course work that doesn't require specialized instructors or equipment; students returning to the college track after some time away; part time and night students; and students cleaning up academic deficiencies that may have kept them out of college in the first place. The 4-year universities are perfectly fine having some of their big "service courses" covered in part by other institutions (they like AP for the same reason) and graduating students faster.

BCP1928 said:
In most of the rest of the world, a person who completes secondary school is considered qualified to take up genteel occupations--management training programs, commercial sales, officer candidate schools, things like that which we require a bachelor's degree for in this country. Consequently, their secondary school training is much more robust and appropriate for entering the working world then ours. It also makes them better qualified to do university-level work. They don't assume when planning their curricula and training their teachers that you have to go on to college to actually learn anything.

Part of this is systems that have different timings in the transition to university. In the English system, University-bound students don't go to uni until about 1 year after their American counter parts. Instead they go to a "6th form college" (I think that is what it is called) that covers roughly the last year of HS and freshman year of college in the US. Their time at "uni" is then limited to 3 years and largely focused on what we would call a "major". Anyone entering a US university from such a system *is* better prepared than typical US HS grads because they've effectively done their freshman year already 2-year community colleges are similar in their coverage of material. It's just a different system.

BCP1928 · Jun 23, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
There are two kinds of non-4-year post-secondary institutions (with some overlap):

2-year colleges and technical colleges or trade schools.

Tech colleges (or trade schools) typically prepare students for a specific profession that requires specialized training before starting that is not covered in HS. Things like dental hygenist, auto mechanic, electrician, printer, x-ray technician, etc.

2-year colleges focus on what is covered in general education requirements of US universities. Their students include local HS grads who want to save money on lower tuition and living at home during the course work that doesn't require specialized instructors or equipment; students returning to the college track after some time away; part time and night students; and students cleaning up academic deficiencies that may have kept them out of college in the first place. The 4-year universities are perfectly fine having some of their big "service courses" covered in part by other institutions (they like AP for the same reason) and graduating students faster.

Right. And in many locations the two institutions are combined. But the problem is still there. I taught "at" a university but not "for" the university for a while. I was actually employed by the local community college to teach remedial math to university freshmen, and there were so many of them that it was decided to teach the classes at the University campus rather than making the students travel some distance to the community college for just the one class. The problem exists for tech and trade students as well, who should have every bit as good a grasp of high school math as university entrants. Plus good tech and trade courses at the high school level, somewhere over the rainbow (Other countries do it, dammit!)

Hans Blaster said:
Part of this is systems that have different timings in the transition to university. In the English system, University-bound students don't go to uni until about 1 year after their American counter parts. Instead they go to a "6th form college" (I think that is what it is called) that covers roughly the last year of HS and freshman year of college in the US. Their time at "uni" is then limited to 3 years and largely focused on what we would call a "major". Anyone entering a US university from such a system *is* better prepared than typical US HS grads because they've effectively done their freshman year already 2-year community colleges are similar in their coverage of material. It's just a different system.

I was teaching at a secondary school in Independent Samoa when the school added the 13th year and qualified as a "college". Those kids could get white collar jobs without wasting time and space in a university.

Hans Blaster · Jun 23, 2024

BCP1928 said:
Right. And in many locations the two institutions are combined. But the problem is still there. I taught "at" a university but not "for" the university for a while. I was actually employed by the local community college to teach remedial math to university freshmen, and there were so many of them that it was decided to teach the classes at the University campus rather than making the students travel some distance to the community college for just the one class.

Did their tuition at the university cover your CC class? Either way it sounds like the students were told to take your CC class (on campus) and then it would count the same for the university as if the university had taught the remedial math class directly.

BCP1928 said:
The problem exists for tech and trade students as well, who should have every bit as good a grasp of high school math as university entrants.

My last contact with HS math was trig class. Most of my classmates went on to college at some level after graduating. (I had to stay behind because I was a junior.) Trig (w/ pre-calc) was seen as a college prep course in the late 80s and I think it still is. There were others headed to college (plus tech school) who were in other fairly advanced math like Alg II which we'd taken the year before.

BCP1928 said:
Plus good tech and trade courses at the high school level, somewhere over the rainbow (Other countries do it, dammit!)

Our schools had a whole bunch of Bus.Ed., shop, and Ag classes. I only took typing, print shop, and accounting, but there were many more that the other half or more of my class mates were taking. (The classmates I only knew from English, PE, and maybe band.)

BCP1928 said:
I was teaching at a secondary school in Independent Samoa when the school added the 13th year and qualified as a "college". Those kids could get white collar jobs without wasting time and space in a university.

I'm never quite sure what these generic white collar jobs w/o experience that are being referred to. Every position I have been even close to involved with filling has required specific advanced training.

BCP1928 · Jun 23, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
Did their tuition at the university cover your CC class? Either way it sounds like the students were told to take your CC class (on campus) and then it would count the same for the university as if the university had taught the remedial math class directly.

Universities aren't allowed to teach high school level subjects. The students had to enroll separately and pay the class tuition to the Junior College. No JC or university credit was allowed.

Hans Blaster said:
My last contact with HS math was trig class. Most of my classmates went on to college at some level after graduating. (I had to stay behind because I was a junior.) Trig (w/ pre-calc) was seen as a college prep course in the late 80s and I think it still is. There were others headed to college (plus tech school) who were in other fairly advanced math like Alg II which we'd taken the year before.

Our schools had a whole bunch of Bus.Ed., shop, and Ag classes. I only took typing, print shop, and accounting, but there were many more that the other half or more of my class mates were taking. (The classmates I only knew from English, PE, and maybe band.)

I'm never quite sure what these generic white collar jobs w/o experience that are being referred to. Every position I have been even close to involved with filling has required specific advanced training.

Mostly corporate management or sales trainees and civil service jobs. Frat connections helped, too . That whole business is vanishing away and I have noticed that kids are starting to realise that a generic degree is not much use these days when the line between white collar and blue collar has become blurred and jobs that pay anything require a technically trained individual rather than a college boy (or girl).

Hillary Clinton's plan for Automatic Green Cards for foreign college graduates is revived for 2024 -- “You’d turn colleges into visa mills”

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