Ram & Goat meaning in Daniel 8

I am studying Daniel 8 and I am currently looking at the Ram and the Goat. I am looking for Clarification on the meaning and significance of these to beasts.

I know that on the Day of Atonement, 2 Goats are used one for the Lord and one for Azazel.

I know that there are Rams used as burnt offerings in other sacrifices.

I know there are sin offerings, trespass offerings, etc, and sometimes goats are used and sometimes Rams are used.

I am looking for an explanation of the meaning of the ram and the goat in the context of sacrifice. can someone bring clarification to this issue? When do you use a Ram and when do you use a goat for in the temple service and which offering is it?

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Leviticus 16

1Now the LORD spoke to Moses after the death of two of Aaron’s sons when they approached the presence of the LORD. 2And the LORD said to Moses: “Tell your brother Aaron not to enter freely into the Most Holy Placea behind the veil in front of the mercy seatb on the ark, or else he will die, because I appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.

3This is how Aaron is to enter the Holy Place: with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. 4He is to wear the sacred linen tunic, with linen undergarments. He must tie a linen sash around him and put on the linen turban. These are holy garments, and he must bathe himself with water before he wears them. 5And he shall take from the congregation of Israel two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering.

6Aaron is to present the bull for his sin offering and make atonement for himself and his household. 7Then he shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

8After Aaron casts lots for the two goats, one for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat,c 9he shall present the goat chosen by lot for the LORD and sacrifice it as a sin offering. 10But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement by sending it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

11When Aaron presents the bull for his sin offering and makes atonement for himself and his household, he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering. 12Then he must take a censer full of burning coals from the altar before the LORD, and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense, and take them inside the veil. 13He is to put the incense on the fire before the LORD, and the cloud of incense will cover the mercy seat above the Testimony,d so that he will not die. 14And he is to take some of the bull’s blood and sprinkle it with his finger on the east side of the mercy seat; then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the mercy seat.

15Aaron shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and bring its blood behind the veil, and with its blood he must do as he did with the bull’s blood: He is to sprinkle it against the mercy seat and in front of it.

16So he shall make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the impurities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting which abides among them, because it is surrounded by their impurities. 17No one may be in the Tent of Meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he leaves, after he has made atonement for himself, his household, and the whole assembly of Israel.

18Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the LORD and make atonement for it. He is to take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19He is to sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

20When Aaron has finished purifying the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, he is to bring forward the live goat. 21Then he is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the iniquities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man appointed for the task. 22The goat will carry on itself all their iniquities into a solitary place, and the man will release it into the wilderness.

23Then Aaron is to enter the Tent of Meeting, take off the linen garments he put on before entering the Most Holy Place, and leave them there. 24He is to bathe himself with water in a holy place and put on his own clothes. Then he must go out and sacrifice his burnt offering and the people’s burnt offering to make atonement for himself and for the people. 25He is also to burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

26The man who released the goat as the scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may reenter the camp.

27The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; and their hides, flesh, and dung must be burned up. 28The one who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water, and afterward he may reenter the camp.

29This is to be a permanent statute for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month, you shall humble yourselvese and not do any work—whether the native or the foreigner who resides among you— 30because on this day atonement will be made for you to cleanse you, and you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31It is a Sabbath of complete rest for you, that you may humble yourselves; it is a permanent statute.

32The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest shall make atonement. He will put on the sacred linen garments 33and make atonement for the Most Holy Place,f the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, and for the priests and all the people of the assembly. 34This is to be a permanent statute for you, to make atonement once a year for the Israelites because of all their sins.”

And all this was done as the LORD had commanded Moses.



Footnotes:

2 a Or the Holy Place ; also in verses 16, 17, 20, 23, and 27
2 b Or atonement cover ; here and throughout this chapter
8 c Literally the other to Azazel ; similarly twice in verse 10 and once in verse 26
13 d The Testimony  refers to the stone tablets in the ark of the covenant inscribed with the Ten Commandments.
29 e Or afflict your souls  or deny yourselves ; also in verse 31
33 f Or the Holy Sanctuary 

BobRyan said:

Dan 8 explicitly tells the reader that the Ram is Persia and the Goat is Greece. see vs 20,21

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I am not talking about the prophetic interpretation. I am looking at the sanctuary imagery. Rams and Goats were used in the sacrifice the ram was usually the burnt offering and the Goat was the sin offering. The problem is that nowhere in the list of sacrifices and offerings listed to you only a Ram & Goat offered, the closest you get is the Day of Atonement sacrifice where you get a Ram and 2 Goats sacrificed for the people's sins.

The imagery needs to be explored in more detail and examined for more meaning there is something there I am just not sure what it means. hence my question.

Update:

In the study of the Ram & Goat from a Sanctuary perspective the representation of the Ram & Goat is as follows

Rams & Goats were used in sacrifices for sin. For sin to be, there has to be a law, so this prophecy is something about God's law being violated.

Rams have been used in sacrifice since the earliest days, Abraham is the first recorded incident involving a Ram, however, Noah is said to have sacrificed burnt offerings of All the ritually clean animals which would include a Ram. In addition to this Adam is said to have been clothed with skins, while it does not say what type of skins, we can see in the story of Cain and Able, that Able takes from his flock to sacrifice. This model would have been the tradition handed down to Noah and handed down to Abraham. So it is reasonable to conclude that a ram was or could have been used since Adam for sacrifice.

Rams were full-grown lambs and were for atoning for sin, giving thanks, and making a covenant.

Goats on the other hand were for intentional sins whereas Lambs were for general atonement. So the Goat is a symbol of willful sin.

So this prophecy is not just about nations, but also about some willful sin and violation of God's law and his covenant.

3 Resurrections said:

I had never considered this particular symbolism of the ram and the goat before, so thank you for bringing it up. Scripture is never accidental in its symbolism, so here are some of my thoughts on why there might be a distinction between the ram and the goat imagery in Daniel 8 for these ancient pagan empires of the Medo-Persians and the Greeks respectively.

We know that God definitely used the rise of the Medo-Persian empire to give the 4 decrees for His people to return to Judea and Jerusalem after their 70 years of captivity punishment, and then to rebuild the temple and the city. Cyrus particularly was mentioned BY NAME hundreds of years in advance in Isaiah 43:28 through 44:14. God called Cyrus "His anointed" and "My shepherd" who would give the first decree for God's people to return from captivity.

The "ram" imagery of atonement for sin, giving thanks, and making a covenant would be particularly fitting for the era of the Medo-Persian empire, since there were 4 decrees given by the Persian kings regarding the restoration of the exiled Israelite people back to their land, and the rebuilding of their temple and city infrastructure. Ezra 9:9 gratefully acknowledges this blessing of God's mercy extended to them through the kings of Persia.

Also, Daniel's angel tells him that in the first year of Darius the Mede, that he had "stood to confirm and to strengthen him" (Dan. 11:1). God's intentions for the establishment of the Medo-Persian empire in order to bless His people through those Persian kings were not going to fail. So the "ram's" covenant imagery for the Medo-Persian empire is a clear sign that God was directly working through these Persian kings to accomplish His purposes of blessing for His people and the restoration of the city Jerusalem and its temple.

As for the "goat" imagery for Alexander the Great, you mention that the goat sacrifices were a picture of intentional and willful sin. Well, Alexander the Great was well known for his tireless energy, determination, and willful intent to conquer the nations of the world as far as he could possibly go in his lifetime. The rapidity with which Alexander and his Greek soldiers conquered and subdued the nations of the known world was astonishing. This "goat" was "moved with choler" or great wrath against the "ram" of the Persian empire. Certainly Alexander the Greek waged a relentless campaign against that last Persian king until he was finally killed and Alexander's Greek kingdom had gained control. A "willful" spirit for this "goat" would seem to fit Alexander the Great's actions and personality, I should think.

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The Jews after Alexander became more and more corrupt. Some say the hellenizaton of the Jews began when they named their children in honor of him, adopted more Greek culture, and then appealed to the Selucids directly for the selection of the Priesthood. They would eventually appeal to Rome for assistance in fighting off the Seclucids and Potolemes. This would lead to further sin and the eventual killing of Christ, the destruction of the temple, and the altering of the Scriptures to hide the Messiah's identity, the Bar Kobas revolts, and the Jewish Diaspora.

3 Resurrections said:

I had never considered this particular symbolism of the ram and the goat before, so thank you for bringing it up. Scripture is never accidental in its symbolism, so here are some of my thoughts on why there might be a distinction between the ram and the goat imagery

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Thank you for your compliment. I am looking further of the imagery of the vision and it is yielding very good results, when I am done with my study I will publish my research on the matter.