Free will and determinism
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Hans Blaster
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stevil
Godless and without morals
I was thinking a bit more about the concept of rewinding time and pressing play again and how things would play out differently.
The genetic mutations are random, so evolution would play out differently. Even if the mutation wasn't significant, it might make a subtle difference in the life of the offspring, slightly differently expressed hormones or whatever, could impact the mood of the individual and hence could easily impact a decision here or there.
Diseases that change quite quickly due to the very fast reproduction rates, would play out differently.
Cancer can be random. Which means some individual randomly might not live long enough to have offspring or to make some significant difference that they did in the first play out of time.
I think there is very good reason to think if all you had was a rewind and play button, that things would play out differently especially the further back you rewind time.
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durangodawood
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Id like to see someone walk us through a person's decision making process, step by individual step, and show us exactly which step could have gone another way.
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stevil
Godless and without morals
And why it woud have gone another way. Even if there is a ghost in the shell, what would the soul decide differently this time around with potentially all physical things being exactly the same. Is the soul a little bit more morally flexible this time around?
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Anyone who manages not to get angry when his car won't work and his holiday plans are ruined is a saint. Anyone who blames his car is an idiot. Do you understand the difference?
Added. Now can you address the many points I have made, please?
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I think it's more important to consider what leads to each decision being made. From your blood sugar levels (you skipped breakfast), to the make up of your prefrontal cortex (your mother carried on drinking when she was pregnant), your culture (your great great grandfather moved to the US from Iran) to you actually being here (your great great x 1000 grandfather turned right instead of left coming out of his cave).
You can draw a direct line between them all. They are direct causes which led to you to making any decision at all. And they are infinite. Just think of everything that had to happen just so that your parents met. So we're not aware of them. They are lost to us. But if someone suffers severe brain damage then we think 'Well, that's obviously the cause of him deciding to do X - he wouldn't have done that otherwise.' (Just think of Phineas Cage: Phineas Gage - Wikipedia or Charles Whitman: University of Texas tower shooting - Wikipedia).
We make allowances for causes that are obvious, as in those two men. But cannot possibly consider every cause that led us to a single point. You can't feel constrained by things of which you are not aware. So we feel that our decisions are not determined.
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I'm sure people actually think this. They think that if conditions were exactly the same then this time they'd choose B or C instead of A. Which is how we describe am arbitrary decision. The dictionary definition of which is: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
So someone had a reason last time and it's not valid this time? Then it's arbitrary.
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Yeah, I'll accept that.
There's two ways of looking at this. You propose that the same situation repeats itself exactly (going back as far as you like) as if the film is being rerun. So Michael always decides to have Freddo killed (oops, spoiler alert). And you decide to have eggs instead of cereal. Or you say that you start with exactly the same conditions and see what happens. And in that case there will be a degree of randomness (you mentioned genetic changes for example).
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durangodawood
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For sure I recognize, at least in the abstract, all the conditions and conditioning that drive our behaviors and opinions. I think they are vastly underappreciated.
But even some free will proponents appreciate them too, yet still propose that there is a kernel of free-will "in there" that can contend against all that, even if its just a tiny voice that moves the needle only slightly. I'm trying to get at that question: is there even a tiny element of free will that can set itself back from all current conditions (including ones own state of mind) and influence future action in any degree from that vantage point. Or is any degree of free will ruled out by careful reasoning.
I think there is. But thats a position of faith in an emergent intangible essentially. I can see how reason challenges this.
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stevil
Godless and without morals
Yes, conditions will be changed because the universe isn't perfect, nothing is perfect, there is always randomness and always corruption. As excellent as our cells are at reproducing and error checking, mistakes still happen. As excellent as our computer systems are, our data storage systems are, corruption always happens. We can have data storage that is 99.999999% reliable, but we can't have 100% because the universe doesn't work that way.
But this randomness isn't an intelligence manipulating and controlling things, it is random and seems to be built into the way our universe operates, and the quantum physicists and mathematicians have formula that accurately model it. So given a set size e.g. a billion atoms or a billion data bits we can know pretty accurately how many will be corrupt or decay.
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Seems like my type of guy:
Modern European and American history is centered around the effort to gain freedom from the political, economic, and spiritual shackles that have bound men.
One tie after another was severed. Man had overthrown the domination of nature and made himself her master; he had overthrown the domination of the Church.
Freud went further than anybody before him in directing attention to the observation and analysis of the irrational and unconscious forces which determine parts of human behavior.
Since this book stresses the role of psychological factors...particularly those concerning the operation of unconscious forces in man’s character and their dependence on external influences...
Although there are certain needs, such as hunger, thirst, sex, which are common to man, those drives which make for the differences in men’s characters...are all products of the social process.
Human nature, though being the product of historical evolution...
Those strivings and character traits by which men differ from each other...These and many other strivings and fears to be found in man develop as a reaction to certain life conditions.
...but primarily his personality is molded by the particular mode of life, as he has already been confronted with it as a child through the medium of the family,
Human nature is neither a biologically fixed and innate sum total of drives nor is it a lifeless shadow of cultural patterns to which it adapts itself smoothly; it is the product of human evolution...
In the process of dynamic adaptation to culture, a number of powerful drives develop which motivate the actions and feelings of the individual. The individual may or may not be conscious of these drives, but in any case they are forceful and demand satisfaction once they have developed.
If this is a guy to whom you think I should listen, then I hope you're not ignoring him either. Maybe you'll now accept that 'you' have been formed by conditions not only not under your control, but by conditions of which you are completely unaware (and some that you think don't even exist).
Now please excuse me...I have another few chapters to read.
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o_mlly
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Yes, he's got you pegged as the passive authoritarian.
The passive authoritarian “wants to receive commands, so that he does not have the necessity to make decisions and carry responsibility.”
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C'mon...you need to respond to any of the numerous comments. Erich is backing up everything I've been telling you so far. Remember this bit:
'Now this intellect is yours. Nobody else's. It's the one that you have now. But it's not the one you had a few years ago. Not the one you had when you were a child. It's developed. It has matured. It wasn't fixed. The decisions you made when you were six weren't the same ones you made when you were sixteen. Which were different to the ones you made when you were 36. And at each stage they'd be different to the guy who steals your wallet.'
Almost all of what Fromm has said in the quotes above back that up. And he's the guy you said I should listen to. You can skip the evolution comments and the ones about the church. Just take on board the other half a dozen. Do you agree with them or not?
And this one was quite important:
'Mentally consider a situation, an event, a condition, at any time that would result in a different outcome (to a decision you made on where you lived, your job etc). Got that in your head? You should have - it's ridiculously easy. Good.
Now tell me why you'd make a different decision if nothing changed.'
Can you please answer that? Thanks.
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durangodawood
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Theres nothing in the determinist view that would make a person welcome authority impinging on the fulfillment of their desires - whether those desire are "low" pleasure-appetites. or "high" aspirations to righteous living.
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o_mlly
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You can tell when a thread is exhausted. One of two things happens: The OP is just trying in vain for a new record number of posts, or he just don't read well.
I'm thinking in this case, it's the latter so, so long.
Oh, and yes, I do remember. Isn't that you plagiarizing me again? See my post #518.
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durangodawood
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He keeps repeating himself because you dont seem to want to tackle his question head on.
Ive been hoping for a response from you - or anyone - to:
How can one given circumstance deliver a range of possible outcomes in a way thats not arbitrary or random? (Considering that at any moment even your own state of mind is part of the one circumstance).
No attempts to drill into this. Just avoidance. Oh well.
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This one? I'm not sure of the relevance.
No, my intellect is that of the person I am now. Not the person I used to be. Yours has changed as well. For why that has happened, see those quotes from Erich. *
Of course. Why couldn't they?
Who cares when it happens? It's not relevant. What had this post of yours have to do with anything I've been asking you in my last half a dozen? Which you refuse to address.
*Edit: Ah, light bulb moment. Because I used the common example of change in the intellect by pointing out that it was different at different ages, you classed that as plagiarism. That's like me accusing you of plagiarism if you bring up the trolley problem.
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