Baptists (and others)-- Wives submit to husbands? Wives and husbands equal partners?

Rose_bud

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There is a hierarchical relationship in their origin: "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve." (1 Tim. 2:13)

Hi jas3:wave:

Thank you. I should have been more clear. There is not a hierachal relationship with the primordial parents that dictates that Adam is to rule over Eve. The context in Genesis 1 indicates a co-rulership.

Adam was created before Eve. I don't think I've said otherwise. I do believe I've also mentioned that the animals were created before Adam. So was the trees the sun and the moon. And yet they were both called to rule the animals. From the information we have about the people groups living in the ancient times, we also know they specifically bowed down to this created elements. Sun, moon, trees etc.

We will get to Tim whose context is false teaching and orderly worship. As we progressively go through the texts in the order mentioned in post #37.

The context in Genesis 1 is about the Creator. Who He is, what He has done and what he mandated for humanity. A co-rulership.


Regardless of what modern scholars say, St. Paul clearly lays the blame on Eve: "And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 Tim. 2:14)

I don't think I said that she was not deceived. I specifically said she was. So we agree.
I said that in the past the biblical text was translated to ignore the fact that Adam was with her when she took the fruit. Resulting in a reading that makes Eve the villain. Yet he was present, when she saw, she took and she gave. She did not go around looking for him. From the text we see God responds to both and judges both their actions.
You are more than welcome to disregard what whomever writes. But I would urge you to prayerfully consider the work done on translations of the text and how it influences our understanding.
 
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tall73

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I'm sorry I'm coming in late. I only skimmed the first five pages, and I may rehash something that's already been said.
No problem!

When we get into mutual submission, I think this entails putting another person's needs above your wants. Not their wants above your needs, but their needs above your wants. And we should all be that way toward everyone. Philippians 2:3. Also on mutual submission, remember that while Sarah was praised for her submission to Abraham, God also told Abraham to listen to Sarah and do as she asked of him. Genesis 21:12.

Agreed!

And the account you mention is a good example of how the husband is to submit to God, and seek his will in the matter, not his own desires. Abraham and Sarah placed themselves in a difficult situation by pursuing a child through their own wisdom.

It is also a reminder to husbands to listen to what wives say, as they may also be discerning the will of God, or propose a course of action in line with the will of God

It also shows Sarah's submissiveness, in that she appeals to Abraham to act on her behalf.

We can all acknowledge that Hagar was poorly treated, as even the text says she was harshly treated by Sarah, (which Abraham signed off on, without asking God) causing her to try to run away the first time.

And it even shows an extreme example of submission on the part of Hagar, who was caught in the middle, was mistreated by Sarah, and yet Hagar was asked to go back and submit, and the Lord blessed her.

Genesis 16:6-13​
6 So Abram said to Sarai, “Indeed your maid is in your hand; do to her as you please.” And when Sarai dealt harshly with her, she fled from her presence.​
7 Now the Angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?”​
She said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.”​
9 The Angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” 10 Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” And the Angel of the LORD said to her:​
“Behold, you are with child,​
And you shall bear a son.​
You shall call his name Ishmael,​
Because the LORD has heard your affliction.​
12 He shall be a wild man;​
His hand shall be against every man,​
And every man’s hand against him.​
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”​
13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” (NKJV)​

Note: I am not citing this to say that women should return to an abusive situation. This is a unique revelation from God to her in this difficult situation.

But in this case God did call Hagar to submit to that. And He is God. She did so, and He did watch over her and bless her.

The account makes us uncomfortable. But not because God was wrong! Rather, because it shows how people can be abused or mistreated in a sinful world, and even such as Abraham and Sarah took actions which brought this on, by not listening to God.

And Hagar was blessed by trusting, and following God in an extreme situation.



We can't isolate the submission of wives and separate it from the love of husbands. They're a package deal. Ephesians 5:25-29.

Very much agreed.

Love isn't merely having warm fuzzy feelings toward somebody. If a husband hurls demands at his wife, doesn't listen to her input, criticizes and mocks her, makes personal decisions for her such as how she may dress and whether or not she may wear makeup, burdens her with rules and restrictions until she's caged in and miserable and feels more like his servant than his wife, he isn't loving her as Christ loves the church. He broke his end of the deal, and I don't think she owes him submission in that case.

This is the sort of situation where appeal to the church could be helpful--if the church is understanding that headship is to look like Christ's love. The husband may need correction from spiritual leadership in the church. Potentially both could, depending on the situation.

And being open to that is also submission on the husband and wife's part.
 
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tall73

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tall73 said:
But the arguments for it
are not describing cultural
concession


I can argue for something on all sorts of grounds, but those grounds may not be the reason why I have to make the argument in the first place. Just because Peter or Paul, in acknowledging the unequal reality of first-century marriage, make remarks about that which are Scripturally or theologically resourced, doesn't mean that Scripture or theology mandate that inequality.

The text acknowledges that the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church--the Romans can't institute that, and would not want to, because they didn't regard Christ.

That is not Peter and Paul acknowledging Roman culture. It is a statement acknowledging God's choice of headship, and what that should look like in following Christ.

It is acknowledging a spiritual reality, not a Roman cultural reality.

And you arguing for something on various grounds is not the same as inspired Scripture instructing something on spiritual grounds.

You have acknowledged it calls for one way submission in a way that is different for the wife than the husband.

But you have inserted your own rationale for the reason, rather than what the text states.
 
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Paidiske

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You have acknowledged it calls for one way submission in a way that is different for the wife than the husband.

But you have inserted your own rationale for the reason, rather than what the text states.
I told you before, I make sense of these texts not in isolation but in view of the whole Scripture. And that does not put forward a view of God's intention for marriage being one of power differential and control.
 
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tall73

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I told you before, I make sense of these texts not in isolation but in view of the whole Scripture. And that does not put forward a view of God's intention for marriage being one of power differential and control.


Yes, i imagine if you only read texts that reference a "power differential" through the lens of those texts that don't, then you won't see the "power differential."

But that is really just admitting which lens you are choosing to impose on the text.

The texts that do have a "power differential" still exist, along with their rationales.

You even admitted that the texts call on women to submit, in a way men are not, but attributed it to cultural concession.

But then instead of explaining how these arguments were those of cultural concession--which they are not--now you indicate a filtering lens.

That is not convincing. Why should people not read these texts for what they say?
 
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Paidiske

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Yes, i imagine if you only read texts that reference a "power differential" through the lens of those texts that don't, then you won't see the "power differential."
I see that it is not the whole picture, or even the focus of the picture.
But that is really just admitting which lens you are choosing to impose on the text.
Maybe. If that's true, though, it's true of all of us; we each bring a lens, and decide how to make sense of apparent contradictions or tensions in the text.
Why should people not read these texts for what they say?
Two reasons. "What they say" - or at least what they mean by what they say - is in dispute. And, perhaps far more important, in the case of one reading, we can demonstrate massive harm resulting from that reading. Since we know that the overall purpose of God is not harmful but liberating, life-giving, and so on, we can look at the fruit and see that this is not what God inspired.
 
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tall73

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I see that it is not the whole picture, or even the focus of the picture.

Maybe. If that's true, though, it's true of all of us; we each bring a lens, and decide how to make sense of apparent contradictions or tensions in the text.

You cannot get rid of tensions or even see the whole picture, though, by grouping all the ones that make you uncomfortable, and then only reading them through the lens of the others. You have to be willing to look at all the texts, and account for the various parts, to work through the presenting apparent contradiction.

You have to see why various things are said, even if they don't match what you would think, or hope. Unless, you are claiming they are actual contradictions, and not just initially apparent contradictions. Then perhaps you have no need to.

But then we are back to my earlier questions of whether you see these passages as inspired. And you already answered that, and asked me to go with that answer, that yes, you do see them as inspired. So I will do so.

And now we are back to having to address what all of the texts say, and not just group together the ones we like, to use as a lens to read the ones we do not.

There is mutual submission. There is the principle that Christian leadership is self-sacrificing, and humble, and not lording it over others. And there is also submission of wives to husbands. If you see those as in tension, then work through how they relate to one another. Don't group together one side and try to keep it out of the picture.

Two reasons. "What they say" - or at least what they mean by what they say - is in dispute.

You haven't disputed what it says. You acknowledged what it said. You only disputed the why, claiming cultural concession. But the reasons given clearly are not arguing cultural concession.

And so once that argument gave way, now you are down to which group of texts you want to go with, from the groups you picked by your own judgment. But you know that doesn't solve the issue, because the other texts are still there, still part of Scripture, and should not be dismissed.

And, perhaps far more important, in the case of one reading, we can demonstrate massive harm resulting from that reading. Since we know that the overall purpose of God is not harmful but liberating, life-giving, and so on, we can look at the fruit and see that this is not what God inspired.

No, in fact, we still don't judge biblical principles based on people who ignore them. No wife was ever harmed by submitting to a husband who loved her as Jesus loved the church.

Many people have been harmed by the husband's failure to do that. But that does not call into question what the text says, because people disregard it.

You have imposed your own standard of what type of reading you will accept, based on your perception of the implications. But that falls into two problems:

a. You misrepresent the implications of the ACTUAL reading. No wife is harmed by submitting to the husband who loves her like Christ loves the church. You already admitted you do submit to Christ. But the text speaks of the love of the husband that is like that of Christ loving the church. And you haven't actually spelled out what submitting to THAT would look like. You have only spelled out the many (and very true) abuses by those who don't follow what the text says.

b. You have said that it is spiritual abuse if someone is reminded of the obligation to submit to something God instituted.

But it is not spiritual abuse for the text of Hebrews to say to yield to leadership in the church, when that leadership really is sincere, and watching out for your souls, and take seriously that they must give an account. You won't be harmed by submitting to shepherds who love like Jesus. But you have not entertained what that would look like. Because you set the rule that only Jesus can be submitted to. But that is not what the text says.

And, while you say you don't see the connection, we see that God did establish ruling authorities to punish the wrongdoer, and commend those who do well, and those who resist them resist the ordinance of God, and bring judgment on themselves.

Was Paul spiritually abusing the Roman church by writing that? Would it be spiritual abuse if a church read Romans 13 during Scripture reading?
Romans 13:1-5 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. (NKJV)​

You must reconcile all the texts, and what the Bible says about submission. Otherwise, you won't get the "whole picture". You will only get the picture you choose to look at.
 
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Paidiske

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There is mutual submission. There is the principle that Christian leadership is self-sacrificing, and humble, and not lording it over others. And there is also submission of wives to husbands. If you see those as in tension, then work through how they relate to one another. Don't group together one side and try to keep it out of the picture.
I'd go back to what I said in my first post in this thread: "We are called to submit to one another, and wifely submission to husbands is only within that dynamic of mutual submimssion. It is not a one-way dynamic of control, but a two-way dynamic of service."
You haven't disputed what it says. You acknowledged what it said. You only disputed the why,
No, actually, I'm not just disputing why. I'm disputing what some people think it means.
No wife was ever harmed by submitting to a husband who loved her as Jesus loved the church.
Only because no husband who loved her as Jesus loved the church would ever use her submission in a controlling way. But many, many women have been harmed by being told that they must submit to their husbands in a one-sided, unequal way.
a. You misrepresent the implications of the ACTUAL reading.
Sorry, no. I have worked with far too many abuse survivors to buy into this no true Scotsman kind of argument. Their bruises and broken bones speak far more loudly.
And you haven't actually spelled out what submitting to THAT would look like.
It looks like mutuality and equality, and not one-sided submission.
b. You have said that it is spiritual abuse if someone is reminded of the obligation to submit to something God instituted.
Spiritual abuse is, at its core, using people's religious beliefs, or religious authority, in order to control someone else. So telling someone else to submit absolutely does fall within that.
But it is not spiritual abuse for the text of Hebrews to say to yield to leadership in the church, when that leadership really is sincere, and watching out for your souls, and take seriously that they must give an account.
It is, however, spiritual abuse when that text is used to tell people they cannot disagree with their leaders, or refuse to follow their instruction, or whatever else. Being open to being led does not bind people to obey every pastoral instruction or demand or suggestion.
Was Paul spiritually abusing the Roman church by writing that?
There are definitely times when the way Paul expresses himself would be... suspect... by today's professional standards. He can be downright manipulative at times. At the very least, we cannot always look at the way he writes, and take that as a model for church leadership today.
 
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tall73

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And, while you say you don't see the connection, we see that God did establish ruling authorities to punish the wrongdoer, and commend those who do well, and those who resist them resist the ordinance of God, and bring judgment on themselves.​
Was Paul spiritually abusing the Roman church by writing that? Would it be spiritual abuse if a church read Romans 13 during Scripture reading?​

Romans 13:1-5 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. (NKJV)​

There are definitely times when the way Paul expresses himself would be... suspect... by today's professional standards. He can be downright manipulative at times. At the very least, we cannot always look at the way he writes, and take that as a model for church leadership today.

So is that a "yes" or a "no" to the question asked? Would reading Romans 13 during Scripture reading be spiritual abuse?
 
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Paidiske

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So is that a "yes" or a "no" to the question asked? Would reading Romans 13 during Scripture reading be spiritual abuse?
It would depend entirely on what's being done with it. If it's read in a way that's intended to give or reinforce a coercive message, it could well be.
 
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tall73

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It would depend entirely on what's being done with it. If it's read in a way that's intended to give or reinforce a coercive message, it could well be.
I am asking if reading the text with zero commentary is spiritual abuse. Or more to the point, is what Paul said in the text spiritual abuse?


Romans 13:1-5 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. (NKJV)​
 
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Paidiske

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I am asking if reading the text with zero commentary is spiritual abuse.
There's no reading without a context. It would depend on the context.
Or more to the point, is what Paul said in the text spiritual abuse?
A text is not abuse on its own; it's how that text is used and functions in relationships that's the issue.
 
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tall73

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There's no reading without a context. It would depend on the context.

A text is not abuse on its own; it's how that text is used and functions in relationships that's the issue.

Great! So then why say this?

There are definitely times when the way Paul expresses himself would be... suspect... by today's professional standards. He can be downright manipulative at times. At the very least, we cannot always look at the way he writes, and take that as a model for church leadership today.​
 
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tall73

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I don't understand. I'm saying two slightly different things there, but I think they're both true (and incredibly important).
Alright, let's ask this then. Was it abuse when Paul wrote it to his audience?
 
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Paidiske

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Alright, let's ask this then. Was it abuse when Paul wrote it to his audience?
We can't know. I think there are other examples in his letters that are more obviously problematic.
 
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tall73

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We can't know. I think there are other examples in his letters that are more obviously problematic.
We can't know if the Holy Spirit inspired spiritual abuse? Are you sure you want to say that?
 
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Paidiske

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We can't know if the Holy Spirit inspired spiritual abuse? Are you sure you want to say that?
My view of inspiration isn't that the Holy Spirit dictated every choice of word and rhetorical device. In fact, I'm pretty sure He didn't. Paul can get doctrine right but still express himself poorly.
 
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tall73

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My view of inspiration isn't that the Holy Spirit dictated every choice of word and rhetorical device. In fact, I'm pretty sure He didn't. Paul can get doctrine right but still express himself poorly.

So then, your measuring line is that anything you find "problematic" is of Paul, and anything you find palatable is of the Holy Spirit?
 
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So then, your measuring line is that anything you find "problematic" is of Paul, and anything you find palatable is of the Holy Spirit?
I don't feel the need to divide it up that way.
 
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