Staying Orthodox

gzt · May 21, 2024

A reflection from the always thoughtful Steve Robinson:

Staying Orthodox

Re-Calibrating the Compass of Faith

steverobinson.substack.com

ArmyMatt · May 21, 2024

good stuff

WanderedHome · Jun 11, 2024

Haven’t logged in here in awhile, but this story hit the nail on the head for why I left the Orthodox Church. Been away for a few years now. Pretty much just ghosted everyone and the church itself… This is the first time I’ve admitted that... I missed the simplicity of the churches I grew up in- where people were not perfect either, but they were trying. And showing up. And while not perfect in love, they had a new spirit and new heart (from Ezekiel 36… Whenever I tried to talk to a priest about that new heart Ezekiel talks about, I’d get a blank or confused stare). The new heart was the evidence that they had truly come to Christ and not just following the old family tradition. While they didn’t believe the Eucharist was the real Body and Blood, there was a solid foundation of faith- and intense gratitude- in the shed blood of Christ (for them personally) to build on. They had generally turned their back on the world and the devil’s vanities and were walking the path of surrendering to Christ. They loved Jesus and were not afraid to wear their heart on their sleeve and talk about what Christ means to them. You didn’t have to fear walking into church and someone giving you the “evil eye,” telling you to “just shut up about it,” or someone else trying to blackmail you. People greeted you with a smile, a hug, or a handshake, and were truly interested in how your week went and how your spiritual state was. They offered encouragement, help, or just presence when you were down and celebrated and danced with you when things were up.

I am now finally finding “my first love” in honest openness in my prayers before God and hearing His still small voice replying and convicting in my spirit… but the trouble is, the Orthodox Church changed me a lot (I hated the person I was becoming, as Orthodox, and felt like I was losing Christ, my first love that I had since I gave my life over to Christ as a teen) and now it is hard to find my place in the world of churches. I still have never entertained the thought of going back East. It makes me shudder every time I think about it.

… It’s funny, my username is WanderedHome, but I never really felt at home in the Orthodox Church. That username was just me lying to myself, trying to make myself feel like I made the right decision. Wanting desperately for it to be home. The truth is I often felt like a foreigner in a strange land. Always keeping an eye open to find a small group of “expats” that I could relate to, and who understood my faith in Christ, who understood what things are like back in the homeland. I mostly got “expats” who had an ax to grind against “the homeland” and a bunch of uncharitable straw man arguments about why it was wrong or bad.

Lukaris · Jun 11, 2024

WanderedHome said:
Haven’t logged in here in awhile, but this story hit the nail on the head for why I left the Orthodox Church. Been away for a few years now. Pretty much just ghosted everyone and the church itself… This is the first time I’ve admitted that... I missed the simplicity of the churches I grew up in- where people were not perfect either, but they were trying. And showing up. And while not perfect in love, they had a new spirit and new heart (from Ezekiel 36… Whenever I tried to talk to a priest about that new heart Ezekiel talks about, I’d get a blank or confused stare). The new heart was the evidence that they had truly come to Christ and not just following the old family tradition. While they didn’t believe the Eucharist was the real Body and Blood, there was a solid foundation of faith- and intense gratitude- in the shed blood of Christ (for them personally) to build on. They had generally turned their back on the world and the devil’s vanities and were walking the path of surrendering to Christ. They loved Jesus and were not afraid to wear their heart on their sleeve and talk about what Christ means to them. You didn’t have to fear walking into church and someone giving you the “evil eye,” telling you to “just shut up about it,” or someone else trying to blackmail you. People greeted you with a smile, a hug, or a handshake, and were truly interested in how your week went and how your spiritual state was. They offered encouragement, help, or just presence when you were down and celebrated and danced with you when things were up.

I am now finally finding “my first love” in honest openness in my prayers before God and hearing His still small voice replying and convicting in my spirit… but the trouble is, the Orthodox Church changed me a lot (I hated the person I was becoming, as Orthodox, and felt like I was losing Christ, my first love that I had since I gave my life over to Christ as a teen) and now it is hard to find my place in the world of churches. I still have never entertained the thought of going back East. It makes me shudder every time I think about it.

… It’s funny, my username is WanderedHome, but I never really felt at home in the Orthodox Church. That username was just me lying to myself, trying to make myself feel like I made the right decision. Wanting desperately for it to be home. The truth is I often felt like a foreigner in a strange land. Always keeping an eye open to find a small group of “expats” that I could relate to, and who understood my faith in Christ, who understood what things are like back in the homeland. I mostly got “expats” who had an ax to grind against “the homeland” and a bunch of uncharitable straw man arguments about why it was wrong or bad.

Personally Orthodoxy has not made me uptight towards Catholics or Protestants. To me the same positive & negative human aspects are found in all Christian groups & congregations. While I believe Orthodox Christian faith is the truth, I believe individuals of all Christian confessions will either have salvation or not. The same worldly delusions and deceptions challenge orthodox beliefs of all confessions.

WanderedHome · Jun 11, 2024

Lukaris said:
To me the same positive & negative human aspects are found in all Christian groups & congregations…. The same worldly delusions and deceptions challenge orthodox beliefs of all confessions.

This is true, but I have never seen it so intensely as in the Orthodox Church. It’s just a different spirit among the people. Can’t really explain it. It’s like the negative attitudes simply being around rather than coming from within. The difference between “a heart of stone and a heart of flesh,” as Ezekiel puts it.

rturner76 · Jun 11, 2024

Even as an adherent to the Roman Church, I can find no error in the Orthodox way. I admire their purity of faith and the only reason I went Roman is because of the different ethnic representations I had a hard time feeling at home in a Russian or Ukrainian church where the liturgy was done in those languages along with the Ethiopian and Greeak among others. I couldn't figure out what Church I belonged to.

Lukaris · Jun 12, 2024

WanderedHome said:
This is true, but I have never seen it so intensely as in the Orthodox Church. It’s just a different spirit among the people. Can’t really explain it. It’s like the negative attitudes simply being around rather than coming from within. The difference between “a heart of stone and a heart of flesh,” as Ezekputs it.

I believe the situation with

WanderedHome said:
This is true, but I have never seen it so intensely as in the Orthodox Church. It’s just a different spirit among the people. Can’t really explain it. It’s like the negative attitudes simply being around rather than coming from within. The difference between “a heart of stone and a heart of flesh,” as Ezekiel puts it.

I am speaking on a broad basis.

I believe cultural differences can make human failings seem more intense especially in cliquish aspects. There are friendly & unfriendly Orthodox parishes in America where ethnicity or being more “American” is actually secondary to the overall atmosphere.

This aside, I believe a major handicap of Orthodoxy as a whole is an inability of the laity to often effectively articulate their faith. Such a problem is shared by nice and not so nice people. There are good people who often lack an ability to positively express their faith effectively ( this is not a lack of faith itself, or a lack of intellect but of instruction).

While I am a convert, my father’s family was Syrian & Orthodox and my grandfather left our parish during a bad ethnic squabble during WW 2 ( my dad was baptized cradle Orthodox but knew little of it). My mother was descended from an American colonist, indentured servant in 17th c. Connecticut. I kind of take an east & west view of things. Our current Orthodox parish is actually a fairly friendly place ( we need to do better of course).

ArmyMatt · Jun 12, 2024

rturner76 said:
Even as an adherent to the Roman Church, I can find no error in the Orthodox way. I admire their purity of faith and the only reason I went Roman is because of the different ethnic representations I had a hard time feeling at home in a Russian or Ukrainian church where the liturgy was done in those languages along with the Ethiopian and Greeak among others. I couldn't figure out what Church I belonged to.

the OCA and Antiochian Archdiocese use the most English and are the most American.

and the ethnic thing is/was in Rome as well. there are Irish Catholic parishes that historically banned non-Irish Catholics from entering.

rturner76 · Jun 12, 2024

ArmyMatt said:
the OCA and Antiochian Archdiocese use the most English and are the most American.

and the ethnic thing is/was in Rome as well. there are Irish Catholic parishes that historically banned non-Irish Catholics from entering.

I get that and didn't mean any disrespect. I was just saying why I went Roman even though I thought that Orthodoxy was the more antient tradition. Part of it was just the convenience of having an RCC church in every city and town where I may go. The more ethnic Orthodox churches in my specific area held the liturgy in the languages of the country they were from so I just couldn't understand what was being said and I found it more difficult to fit in. I know there are American-based Orthodox Churches, but there are only a few in my area and some are pretty far away where mt local RCC parishes surround me everywhere. So it wasn't a matter of not believing what they teach, it ended up being more about convenience.

E.C. · Jun 12, 2024

WanderedHome said:
This is true, but I have never seen it so intensely as in the Orthodox Church. It’s just a different spirit among the people. Can’t really explain it. It’s like the negative attitudes simply being around rather than coming from within. The difference between “a heart of stone and a heart of flesh,” as Ezekiel puts it.

I think I understand this. I mean, sure, we may not argue over basic theological precepts like the need for Confession because the parish council president had a private revelation reading the Bible one night, but instead we divide ourselves over things like the Calendar issue and little "t" traditions. Instead of treating our fellow Orthodox with love, we treat him with disdain because he celebrates the Nativity on December 25 instead of January 7 which naturally makes him a heretic who has voided any possibility of salvation.

Lukaris said:
This aside, I believe a major handicap of Orthodoxy as a whole is an inability of the laity to often effectively articulate their faith. Such a problem is shared by nice and not so nice people. There are good people who often lack an ability to positively express their faith effectively ( this is not a lack of faith itself, or a lack of intellect but of instruction).

Agreed on the lack of instruction. This is where having multiple jurisdictions that don't collaborate has been our downfall: schools.

There are twenty-seven canonical Orthodox parishes in the DC area and the only form of Orthodox schooling that exists is either Sunday school, Greek school, or a homeschooling co-op of maybe a dozen kids. Of these twenty-seven parishes, the smallest ones have maybe a dozen or two families while the largest ones have 1,000 families registered with probably about 200-300 on your average Sunday. The priests of the four cathedrals are fortunate enough to draw a $100,000 salary (DC is expensive).

But the main reason why we don't have a single Orthodox school? Because "we" can't let "them" run it. Pick two different jurisdictions for "we" and "them" and you'll have the same answer no matter what. Instead of consolidating our resources for a common good, we waste it on ourselves and our own desires because God forbid "we" are not the ones in charge of everything.

ArmyMatt said:
the OCA and Antiochian Archdiocese use the most English and are the most American.

and the ethnic thing is/was in Rome as well. there are Irish Catholic parishes that historically banned non-Irish Catholics from entering.

Yep. Thank God for Catholic Bishop John Ireland for pushing St Alexis Toth and many others back to the true faith!

On a serious note, yes, it exists within Catholicism as well; after all, the Polish National Catholic Church exists for a reason. My school was Irish Catholic while our rival school was Italian Catholic and without fail every single middle school dance of the half-dozen or so Catholic schools in the area always had an Irish boy and an Italian boy fighting over who would slow-dance with the Mexican Catholic girls! A light-humored example, but yes.

ArmyMatt · Jun 13, 2024

rturner76 said:
So it wasn't a matter of not believing what they teach, it ended up being more about convenience.

I dunno. if I believe Orthodoxy is true, and the only Church is a Greek one that does services in Greek, then that’s where I am gonna go. it’ll be annoying to be sure, but I would rather have Christ than convenience.

rturner76 · Jun 13, 2024

ArmyMatt said:
I dunno. if I believe Orthodoxy is true, and the only Church is a Greek one that does services in Greek, then that’s where I am gonna go. it’ll be annoying to be sure, but I would rather have Christ than convenience.

I totally understand especially as the New Testament was mostly written in Greek. Part of the convenience for me is that I know not one iota of Greek. It would take me years to get literate in Greek (especially ancient Greek). I need a church that I can attend and understand right now. Vatican II changed a lot of things for the Roman CHurch by allowing native languages to be used rather than strictly Latin. I'ts not all just about convenience but like you said "I want Christ" and for me, I feel I can get closer to Christ if I hear the liturgy in a language that I can understand. Also like I said, with my chosen church, the same liturgy is given in every Roman Church around the world, all reading from the same book.

So, I'm not denying that you're route has a clearer more efficient path to Christ and his teachings, and I have the utmost respect for Orthodoxy and see no error in it. I want to make that clear that I am not saying Orthodoxy is wrong in any way. It's just for me, like I said, I felt the Roman Church gave be a clear path to Christ. I mostly became Catholic so I could receive the real presence in the Eucharist. That is when I feel closest to Christ.

ArmyMatt · Jun 13, 2024

rturner76 said:
Part of the convenience for me is that I know not one iota of Greek. It would take me years to get literate in Greek (especially ancient Greek).

while that is annoying, it’s better to be in the inerrant Church without knowledge of the language, than outside her for any reason. I don’t know Bulgarian, but I would still choose a Bulgarian parish in Bulgarian than anything English that is false.

JSRG · Jun 13, 2024

WanderedHome said:
Haven’t logged in here in awhile, but this story hit the nail on the head for why I left the Orthodox Church. Been away for a few years now. Pretty much just ghosted everyone and the church itself… This is the first time I’ve admitted that... I missed the simplicity of the churches I grew up in- where people were not perfect either, but they were trying. And showing up. And while not perfect in love, they had a new spirit and new heart (from Ezekiel 36… Whenever I tried to talk to a priest about that new heart Ezekiel talks about, I’d get a blank or confused stare). The new heart was the evidence that they had truly come to Christ and not just following the old family tradition. While they didn’t believe the Eucharist was the real Body and Blood, there was a solid foundation of faith- and intense gratitude- in the shed blood of Christ (for them personally) to build on. They had generally turned their back on the world and the devil’s vanities and were walking the path of surrendering to Christ. They loved Jesus and were not afraid to wear their heart on their sleeve and talk about what Christ means to them. You didn’t have to fear walking into church and someone giving you the “evil eye,” telling you to “just shut up about it,” or someone else trying to blackmail you. People greeted you with a smile, a hug, or a handshake, and were truly interested in how your week went and how your spiritual state was. They offered encouragement, help, or just presence when you were down and celebrated and danced with you when things were up.

I am now finally finding “my first love” in honest openness in my prayers before God and hearing His still small voice replying and convicting in my spirit… but the trouble is, the Orthodox Church changed me a lot (I hated the person I was becoming, as Orthodox, and felt like I was losing Christ, my first love that I had since I gave my life over to Christ as a teen) and now it is hard to find my place in the world of churches. I still have never entertained the thought of going back East. It makes me shudder every time I think about it.

… It’s funny, my username is WanderedHome, but I never really felt at home in the Orthodox Church. That username was just me lying to myself, trying to make myself feel like I made the right decision. Wanting desperately for it to be home. The truth is I often felt like a foreigner in a strange land. Always keeping an eye open to find a small group of “expats” that I could relate to, and who understood my faith in Christ, who understood what things are like back in the homeland. I mostly got “expats” who had an ax to grind against “the homeland” and a bunch of uncharitable straw man arguments about why it was wrong or bad.

What have you changed to since? (your user profile still lists "Eastern Orthodox" as your religion)

WanderedHome · Jun 14, 2024

JSRG said:
What have you changed to since? (your user profile still lists "Eastern Orthodox" as your religion)

Still figuring it out. I haven’t changed the profile because the forum admins make it such a hassle to change anything

tampasteve · Jun 14, 2024

WanderedHome said:
Still figuring it out. I haven’t changed the profile because the forum admins make it such a hassle to change anything

I can change it to simple "Christian" if you wish, it would not preclude you from posting in the Orthodox forums with genuine questions and comments such as you have been doing.

WanderedHome · Jun 14, 2024

tampasteve said:
I can change it to simple "Christian" if you wish, it would not preclude you from posting in the Orthodox forums with genuine questions and comments such as you have been doing.

Sure. Thanks.

tampasteve · Jun 14, 2024

WanderedHome said:
Sure. Thanks.

Done

WanderedHome · Jun 14, 2024

tampasteve said:
Done

Wouldn't it just be easier to put an edit button on people's profiles so they can change it themselves?

tampasteve · Jun 14, 2024

WanderedHome said:
Wouldn't it just be easier to put an edit button on people's profiles so they can change it themselves?

Maybe, that's not up to me, I am not sure what would be involved in that. It isn't often that most people change the setting as it is.

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