Fallen Angels

Paleouss · Apr 23, 2024

BobRyan said:
Demons are angels who fell:

Hi Bob, glad to read something of yours again. I frequetly read what you write on this site, I like it.

Hope your week has started out well.

To add to what you have said...

When one looks at the book of Hebrews 1:13-14, one finds that the words "angels" and "spirits" are used synonymously. Additionally, as you said, Satan (an angel) is called a demon named Beelzebub and is the ruler of demons in Matthew 12:24. Further, Satan is referred to as a "spirit" when it is written "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Eph 2:2). We are told that God makes “His angels spirits” (Psa 104:4) and in Numbers we are told that the Lord is the “God of the spirits of all flesh” (Num 27:16). And then in 1Cor 15:39-40, we are told what kinds of flesh there are and that they are different.

angels = spirits (Heb 1:13-14, Psa 104:4, Num 27:16)
Satan (angel) = demon (Matt 12:24-26)
Satan (angel) = spirit (Eph 2:2)
angels = demons & spirits

All this along with Revelation 12:4, like you said, that tells us who we should expect to see as foreign to the earth, i.e., fallen angels.

There are more verses but I won't make this post exhaustive.

BobRyan said:
Matthew 25:41: “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

I like this Bob. I havn't considered this before. Basically, it outlines what "heavenly bodies" (1Cor 15:40) are on the left...the devil and his angels. Since we can find angels, demons and spirits used synonymously in the Scripture then it is reasonable to conclude that Matt 25:41 is accounting for all the "heavenly bodies" (1Cor 15:39-40) that are on the left. The "heavenly bodies" (1Cor 15:40 ESV) that are not of the "same flesh" (1Cor 15:39 NKJV) as the "earthly bodies" (1Cor 15:40).

Peace be with you brother

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2024

Paleouss said:
Hi Bob, glad to read something of yours again. I frequetly read what you write on this site, I like it. Hope your week has started out well.

Thanks - nice to see you posting here.

Paleouss said:
To add to what you have said...

When one looks at the book of Hebrews 1:13-14, one finds that the words "angels" and "spirits" are used synonymously.

Excellent point. I missed that --

Rose_bud · Apr 23, 2024

BobRyan said:
never the book of Enoch

In sola scriptura testing groups this is never used

oh you mean Genesis 6 -- yep I hear about Gen 6 just about every month from the pulpit.

Good for you.

Rose_bud · Apr 23, 2024

Paul4JC said:
Naked Bible 93: The Book of Enoch in the Early Church

Naked Bible 93: The Book of Enoch in the Early Church

The book we know as 1 Enoch was well known to early Christians. Its importance produced an understandable question among some influential early Christian writers and, one may presume, Christians in general: Should 1 Enoch be considered inspired and thus “Scripture” in the manner of other books...

nakedbiblepodcast.com

I read his book, the unseen realm a few years back. It was informative, especially his take on the ancient worldview. And how we approach the text without considering what the patriarchs, must have thought when looking up into the sky and how they viewed gods. Thanks, I'll relook at it again. I can't remember what he said about Genesis 6, I'll take another look.

BobRyan · Apr 23, 2024

Paul4JC said:
As I already stated you don't have an original source for [(1) Evil spirits are fallen angels)]. So there is no basis for this position.

The main source for [(2) Evil spirits are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim (the product of fallen angel and human women procreation).] is the Book of 1 Enoch, which the earlier church fathers agreed with.

not included in the Canon of scripture. And for good reason.

It says that giants were over half a mile tall. That is pure nonsense.

Paul4JC · Apr 23, 2024

BobRyan said:
not included in the Canon of scripture. And for good reason.

It says that giants were over half a mile tall. That is pure nonsense.

Where does 1 Enoch say giants were over a half mile tall? It does not.

BobRyan said:
We have the Bible for that.

That is not the Bible so it is 'no source' for those interested in sola scriptura testing of all doctrine

And Paul himself warns his readers in 2 Thess 2:1-4 that fake documents were destined to come out, fake letters, fake books, some claiming to be written by Paul.

You are misquoting Paul. He is talking about forgeries using his name, people claiming to be Paul

BobRyan said:
Note "Demons" , "Evil spirits" , "Devils" are not mentioned at all in the entire chapter of Genesis 6. That is not what it is about.
=============
Demons are angels who fell:

"Satan and HIS angels" = "the dragon and HIS angels"

2 Peter 3
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, held for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly

Rev 12
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven crowns. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven

It is then a case of "Satan and HIS angels" vs the angels of heaven in Rev 12.

7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Matthew 25:41: “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

Matt 12:23 “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
954. Beelzeboul -- Beelzebul, a name of Satan

... 2 Ki 1:2) -- Beelzebul, a title of Satan which stresses he is the prince
over demons . See also 4567 ("Satan").

Matt 10:8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

KJV devils: G1140 daimonion
NASB demons: G1140 daimonion

Okay, but which verse says Angels are demons?

Paul4JC · Apr 23, 2024

Rose_bud said:
I read his book, the unseen realm a few years back. It was informative, especially his take on the ancient worldview. And how we approach the text without considering what the patriarchs, must have thought when looking up into the sky and how they viewed gods. Thanks, I'll relook at it again. I can't remember what he said about Genesis 6, I'll take another look.

I read it too, as well as some of his other books. He wrote a book on 1 Enoch, Angels, and one on Demons too. [Amazon.com: Michael Heiser: Books] Also a lot is on his podcasts and YT.

He passed away last year. He was a rare scholar whose aim was to give scholarly works to regular people or the layman. He is dearly missed.

Rose_bud · Apr 23, 2024

Paul4JC said:
I read it too, as well as some of his other books. He wrote a book on 1 Enoch, Angels, and one on Demons too. [Amazon.com: Michael Heiser: Books] Also a lot is on his podcasts and YT.

I browsed through Angels, trying to find material for an Angelogy paper. I was looking for a credible source to cite, as most information on this is usually based on people's experiences.

Paul4JC said:
He passed away last year. He is dearly missed. He was a rare scholar whose aim was to give scholarly works to regular people or the layman.

I didn't know he passed away .

BobRyan · Apr 24, 2024

Paul4JC said:
Where does 1 Enoch say giants were over a half mile tall? It does not.

I take it from your comment that you too agree that claiming someone is over half a mile tall - is pretty silly.

In 1 Enoch, Book 1… chapter 3 they bare "great giants, whose height was three hundred cubits". Because cubit is 18 inches (46 cm), this would make them 450 feet (140 m) tall.

Book 1—The Watchers… Chapter 3 – Fallen Angels

7 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each
chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile
themselves with them.

8 And they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and
made them acquainted with plants.

9 And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three
thousand ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could
no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind.

=========================
One ell = 1 cubit. One cubit = 18 inches. 3000 ells would be 54000 inches, and divide by 12 so then 4500 feet -- or about .85 mile.

3000 x 18 /12 = 4500 feet.

============================

So then ... much better to stick with the actual Bible ... or at the very least to understand better why the Jewish nation church and also the Christian church did not include pseudepigraphal books like the book of Enoch in scripture.

BobRyan · Apr 24, 2024

Paul4JC said:
You are misquoting Paul. He is talking about forgeries using his name, people claiming to be Paul

2 Thess 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. NKJV

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. KJV

2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. NASB

BobRyan · Apr 24, 2024

BobRyan said:
Note "Demons" , "Evil spirits" , "Devils" are not mentioned at all in the entire chapter of Genesis 6. That is not what it is about.
=============
Demons are angels who fell:

"Satan and HIS angels" = "the dragon and HIS angels"

2 Peter 3
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, held for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly

Rev 12
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven crowns. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven

It is then a case of "Satan and HIS angels" vs the angels of heaven in Rev 12.

7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Matthew 25:41: “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

Matt 12:23 “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
954. Beelzeboul -- Beelzebul, a name of Satan

... 2 Ki 1:2) -- Beelzebul, a title of Satan which stresses he is the prince
over demons . See also 4567 ("Satan").

Matt 10:8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

KJV devils: G1140 daimonion
NASB demons: G1140 daimonion

Paul4JC said:
Okay, but which verse says Angels are demons?

I don't find any text says all Angels are demons and I don't find any mention of evil spirits or demons in Gen 6.

But a noted above we see that Satan is Beelzebul - rule of demons in Matt 12:23. A fallen Angel as the ruler of demons.
2 Ki 1:2 Satan as the prince of demons. A fallen angel - prince of demons
Rev 12 "Satan and HIS angels" thrown down to Earth
Rev 12 Satan - a fallen angel - called the devil

Devils are demons.
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary defines demon as "an evil spirit or devil" and devil as "an evil spirit; a demon". Some English Bible translations use the two terms somewhat interchangeably.

Paleouss · Apr 24, 2024

BobRyan said:
not included in the Canon of scripture. And for good reason.

It is not in the official Jewish Bible (Tanakh) either. So the Christians and the Jews both rejected it as God inspired, i.e., through prophets.

Rose_bud said:
I read his book, the unseen realm a few years back. It was informative, especially his take on the ancient worldview.

Reasons To Question The Book Of Enoch:

(1) It is not in the Bible.
God, through His providence, did not inspire those that collected and chose the writings for the current Bible to include the book of Enoch. Thus, one would conclude that God did not want it in the Bible.

(2) It is not in the Jewish Bible.
They also rejected it as not given by a prophet, inspired by God. Romans 3:1 says that "the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God". In my view, through God's providence, the official Jewish cannon can be trusted as God inspired as well, according to Romans 3:1.

(3a) The older section of 1Enoch is estamated to be written around 300-200 BC
and the newer sections (it was written by multiple authors) around 100 BC. This falls firmly into the time period when God had stopped sending prophets (for reasons given below). This period is called the "400 silent years", the intertestamental period of the OT and NT.

(3b) It was written by multiple authors
The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch but by multiple authors. These multiple authors didn't even have first hand accounts of Enoch or his teachings. This would be ok if they were prophets given inspired knowledge like Moses had (see 3c).

(3c) The multple authors are unknown
During the Old Testament period, those claiming to be prophets had to show signs or give prophecies or interpret visions to show they are sent by God. 1 Corinthians 1:22, "For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom". If a person claimed to be a prophet of God and wasn't...they killed them. It would seem very suspicious that the authors of the book of Enoch kept their names hidden. They knew full well they would be killed for claiming to be prophets when they were not. Clearly they were not prophets since it was written during the silent period and God did not make sure the book of Enoch was in the Jewish Tanakh or the Christian Bible.

(4) The condition of the Jewish people when the book of Enoch was written
The reason the time period is called the "400 silent years" is not just because God didn't send any prophets during that time period but also because of the condition and false beliefs of the Jewish culture. Within the Bible one can find a problem of outside beliefs about evil sprits and demons seeping into the Jewish culture. God frequently chastised the Jewish people within the Scripture. This problem of outside beliefs infiltrating the Hebrew cutlure was so rampant leading up to the collapse of Judah that God sent "His servants the prophets" (Jer 25:4) to warn the people regarding their false beliefs about spirits, demons, and gods. But they would not listen.

(Jer 25:7 ESV)
Yet you have not listened to me, declares the LORD, that you might provoke me to anger with the work of your hands to your own harm.

God, within the biblical text, accuses the Jewish people of going after other gods to “serve them and worship them” (Jer 25:6). In Ezekiel, written around 586-538 BC, the leaders are accused by God of setting “up their idols in their hearts, and put before them that which causes them to stumble into iniquity” (Eze 14:3).

So this was the condition of the Jewish culture during the last prophets God sent and before the NT and Jesus. The book of Enoch was written during a time that God had given the Jewish people over to conquering nations for their false beliefs in demons and evil spirits and their worship. Even during King Jeroboam’s reign in Judah, “he appointed for himself priests for the high places, for the demons, and the calf idols which he had made” (2Chr 11:15 NKJV).

(5) It is contrary to Biblical scripure and Biblical reasoning
The Bible tells us who we may expect to see as foriegn to earth, that is fallen angels (Rev 12:4). And gives clues to who these evil spirits and demons are...

angels = spirits&demons (Heb 1:13-14,Matt 12:24-26,Eph 2:2,Psa 104:4,Num 27:16)
demons = spirits (Luke 10:17-20, Matt 8:16, Luke 9:39-42)
angels = spirits & demons

Here is an essay on the topic Angles_On_Earth.pdf or it can be found online Demons & Evil Spirits On Earth: A Biblical Account Of Satan And Demonology

(Pro 2:3-5 ESV) ... if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God.

May God do a fruitful work through you

Rose_bud · Apr 24, 2024

Paleouss said:
It is not in the official Jewish Bible (Tanakh) either. So the Christians and the Jews both rejected it as God inspired, i.e., through prophets.

Reasons To Question The Book Of Enoch:

(1) It is not in the Bible.
God, through His providence, did not inspire those that collected and chose the writings for the current Bible to include the book of Enoch. Thus, one would conclude that God did not want it in the Bible.

(2) It is not in the Jewish Bible.
They also rejected it as not given by a prophet, inspired by God. Romans 3:1 says that "the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God". In my view, through God's providence, the official Jewish cannon can be trusted as God inspired as well, according to Romans 3:1.

(3a) The older section of 1Enoch is estamated to be written around 300-200 BC
and the newer sections (it was written by multiple authors) around 100 BC. This falls firmly into the time period when God had stopped sending prophets (for reasons given below). This period is called the "400 silent years", the intertestamental period of the OT and NT.

(3b) It was written by multiple authors
The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch but by multiple authors. These multiple authors didn't even have first hand accounts of Enoch or his teachings. This would be ok if they were prophets given inspired knowledge like Moses had (see 3c).

(3c) The multple authors are unknown
During the Old Testament period, those claiming to be prophets had to show signs or give prophecies or interpret visions to show they are sent by God. 1 Corinthians 1:22, "For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom". If a person claimed to be a prophet of God and wasn't...they killed them. It would seem very suspicious that the authors of the book of Enoch kept their names hidden. They knew full well they would be killed for claiming to be prophets when they were not. Clearly they were not prophets since it was written during the silent period and God did not make sure the book of Enoch was in the Jewish Tanakh or the Christian Bible.

(4) The condition of the Jewish people when the book of Enoch was written
The reason the time period is called the "400 silent years" is not just because God didn't send any prophets during that time period but also because of the condition and false beliefs of the Jewish culture. Within the Bible one can find a problem of outside beliefs about evil sprits and demons seeping into the Jewish culture. God frequently chastised the Jewish people within the Scripture. This problem of outside beliefs infiltrating the Hebrew cutlure was so rampant leading up to the collapse of Judah that God sent "His servants the prophets" (Jer 25:4) to warn the people regarding their false beliefs about spirits, demons, and gods. But they would not listen.

God, within the biblical text, accuses the Jewish people of going after other gods to “serve them and worship them” (Jer 25:6). In Ezekiel, written around 586-538 BC, the leaders are accused by God of setting “up their idols in their hearts, and put before them that which causes them to stumble into iniquity” (Eze 14:3).

So this was the condition of the Jewish culture during the last prophets God sent and before the NT and Jesus. The book of Enoch was written during a time that God had given the Jewish people over to conquering nations for their false beliefs in demons and evil spirits and their worship. Even during King Jeroboam’s reign in Judah, “he appointed for himself priests for the high places, for the demons, and the calf idols which he had made” (2Chr 11:15 NKJV).

(5) It is contrary to Biblical scripure and Biblical reasoning
The Bible tells us who we may expect to see as foriegn to earth, that is fallen angels (Rev 12:4). And gives clues to who these evil spirits and demons are...

angels = spirits&demons (Heb 1:13-14,Matt 12:24-26,Eph 2:2,Psa 104:4,Num 27:16)
demons = spirits (Luke 10:17-20, Matt 8:16, Luke 9:39-42)
angels = spirits & demons

Here is an essay on the topic Angles_On_Earth.pdf or it can be found online Demons & Evil Spirits On Earth: A Biblical Account Of Satan And Demonology

May God do a fruitful work through you

Hi Paleouss

Hope you are good.

Have you read Enoch? Or any book not regarded as part of the Protestant Canon, Maccabees, Tobit, Sirach? I'm assuming you are not Catholic.

I'm aware of the what is said about these books. I read them anyway, not because I regard them as part of the Protestant Canon, but how I would approach any historical literature.
Enoch is mentioned in the Bible and serves as what is known as intertexture when analyzing a text.

With that said, I haven't read your links, but with time I'll do so.

Paleouss · Apr 24, 2024

Rose_bud said:
Hi Paleouss

Hope you are good.

God blesses beyond measure. I am good, thank you for your well wishes.

Rose_bud said:
Have you read Enoch?

I have read some. I am by no means an expert on it. I have friends that hold to the book of Enoch and I hear its teachings frequently. More than I would like and more then I think my friends should spend on the book. but I digress.

Rose_bud said:
Or any book not regarded as part of the Protestant Canon, Maccabees, Tobit, Sirach? I'm assuming you are not Catholic.

I am not Catholic. Yes I am aware of the Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, as well as three chapters of Daniel (3:24-90; 13; 14) and six chapters of Esther (10:14-16:14). I am not an expert on any of them but have read parts of them. Most of my ancient text reading is focused on the particular research topic I may be on at the time.

I in no means want to get into a debate on whether these should be included in the Protestant Bible. The fact is, they just are not. I think it is important to note that I do think these additional writings have some value. And, despite how I have presented myself of this thread, I do think the book of Enoch has some value. But I think it is clear the type of value I have for it is not the same as those that take it as truth, word for word.

You seem to imply that that book of Enoch may hold value. In this, I agree. The book of Enoch clearly depicts the beliefs of a comprimised Jewish culture at the time it was written. I say compromised based on the last post I made. The Jewish people, through the Biblical text, were frequently taking on and mixing the outside people groups beliefs about gods, spirits, and demons. It runs through the OT, God's condemnation of them that is. So knowing this, one should have extra caution with texts about spirits and demons that spring up during a "silent period" within the Jewish culture.

All this, and salvation is not tied to ones beliefs about evil sprits and demons. Thank God for that. So even if you hold to the book of Enoch as all truth, I look forward to speaking with you in the future on other topics we might share a common interest in, in the Lord.

Peace be with you sister!
(I'm assuming sister)

Paul4JC · Apr 24, 2024

BobRyan said:
I take it from your comment that you too agree that claiming someone is over half a mile tall - is pretty silly.

In 1 Enoch, Book 1… chapter 3 they bare "great giants, whose height was three hundred cubits". Because cubit is 18 inches (46 cm), this would make them 450 feet (140 m) tall.

Book 1—The Watchers… Chapter 3 – Fallen Angels

7 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each
chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile
themselves with them.

8 And they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and
made them acquainted with plants.

9 And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three
thousand ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could
no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind.

=========================
One ell = 1 cubit. One cubit = 18 inches. 3000 ells would be 54000 inches, and divide by 12 so then 4500 feet -- or about .85 mile.

3000 x 18 /12 = 4500 feet.

============================

So then ... much better to stick with the actual Bible ... or at the very least to understand better why the Jewish nation church and also the Christian church did not include pseudepigraphal books like the book of Enoch in scripture.

I don't agree with you, or your appoach.

Obviously there is a translation issue. 450 vs 4500. These numbers are not in Nickelsburg's translation.
2 And they conceived from them and bore to them great giants. And the giants begot Nephilim, and to the Nephilim were born †Elioud†. And they were growing in accordance with their greatness.

So you only follow one version of the Bible, even with translation errors?

This all has nothing to do with the OP. It can be discussed elsewhere.

Paul4JC · Apr 24, 2024

Paleouss said:
It is not in the official Jewish Bible (Tanakh) either. So the Christians and the Jews both rejected it as God inspired, i.e., through prophets.

Reasons To Question The Book Of Enoch:

(1) It is not in the Bible.
God, through His providence, did not inspire those that collected and chose the writings for the current Bible to include the book of Enoch. Thus, one would conclude that God did not want it in the Bible.

(2) It is not in the Jewish Bible.
They also rejected it as not given by a prophet, inspired by God. Romans 3:1 says that "the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God". In my view, through God's providence, the official Jewish cannon can be trusted as God inspired as well, according to Romans 3:1.

(3a) The older section of 1Enoch is estamated to be written around 300-200 BC
and the newer sections (it was written by multiple authors) around 100 BC. This falls firmly into the time period when God had stopped sending prophets (for reasons given below). This period is called the "400 silent years", the intertestamental period of the OT and NT.

(3b) It was written by multiple authors
The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch but by multiple authors. These multiple authors didn't even have first hand accounts of Enoch or his teachings. This would be ok if they were prophets given inspired knowledge like Moses had (see 3c).

(3c) The multple authors are unknown
During the Old Testament period, those claiming to be prophets had to show signs or give prophecies or interpret visions to show they are sent by God. 1 Corinthians 1:22, "For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom". If a person claimed to be a prophet of God and wasn't...they killed them. It would seem very suspicious that the authors of the book of Enoch kept their names hidden. They knew full well they would be killed for claiming to be prophets when they were not. Clearly they were not prophets since it was written during the silent period and God did not make sure the book of Enoch was in the Jewish Tanakh or the Christian Bible.

(4) The condition of the Jewish people when the book of Enoch was written
The reason the time period is called the "400 silent years" is not just because God didn't send any prophets during that time period but also because of the condition and false beliefs of the Jewish culture. Within the Bible one can find a problem of outside beliefs about evil sprits and demons seeping into the Jewish culture. God frequently chastised the Jewish people within the Scripture. This problem of outside beliefs infiltrating the Hebrew cutlure was so rampant leading up to the collapse of Judah that God sent "His servants the prophets" (Jer 25:4) to warn the people regarding their false beliefs about spirits, demons, and gods. But they would not listen.

God, within the biblical text, accuses the Jewish people of going after other gods to “serve them and worship them” (Jer 25:6). In Ezekiel, written around 586-538 BC, the leaders are accused by God of setting “up their idols in their hearts, and put before them that which causes them to stumble into iniquity” (Eze 14:3).

So this was the condition of the Jewish culture during the last prophets God sent and before the NT and Jesus. The book of Enoch was written during a time that God had given the Jewish people over to conquering nations for their false beliefs in demons and evil spirits and their worship. Even during King Jeroboam’s reign in Judah, “he appointed for himself priests for the high places, for the demons, and the calf idols which he had made” (2Chr 11:15 NKJV).

(5) It is contrary to Biblical scripure and Biblical reasoning
The Bible tells us who we may expect to see as foriegn to earth, that is fallen angels (Rev 12:4). And gives clues to who these evil spirits and demons are...

angels = spirits&demons (Heb 1:13-14,Matt 12:24-26,Eph 2:2,Psa 104:4,Num 27:16)
demons = spirits (Luke 10:17-20, Matt 8:16, Luke 9:39-42)
angels = spirits & demons

Here is an essay on the topic Angles_On_Earth.pdf or it can be found online Demons & Evil Spirits On Earth: A Biblical Account Of Satan And Demonology

May God do a fruitful work through you

This has nothing to do with the OP. This is what you resort to when you can't answer what's the sources of your OP? Next time just don't create such a thread.

Paul4JC · Apr 24, 2024

BobRyan said:
I don't find any text says all Angels are demons and I don't find any mention of evil spirits or demons in Gen 6.

But a noted above we see that Satan is Beelzebul - rule of demons in Matt 12:23. A fallen Angel as the ruler of demons.
2 Ki 1:2 Satan as the prince of demons. A fallen angel - prince of demons
Rev 12 "Satan and HIS angels" thrown down to Earth
Rev 12 Satan - a fallen angel - called the devil

Devils are demons.
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary defines demon as "an evil spirit or devil" and devil as "an evil spirit; a demon". Some English Bible translations use the two terms somewhat interchangeably.

Why are you quoting a secular dictionary, Sola Scriptura? Right.

Postvieww · Apr 24, 2024

BobRyan said:
That is the right one.

That is not from the Bible.

No Bible text says that evil spirits are spirits of dead Nephilim.

But we do have evidence that Nephilim are simply humans -- normal humans that lived before the flood but lived for a long time and were about 2 times taller than humans today

Nor ldoes the Bible say fallen angels are demons. One must build a case from all available evidence and I see no evidence to support the theory that demons are fallen angels.

Bob Crowley · Apr 24, 2024

Demons are fallen angels.

Fr. Jose Antonio Fortea had this to say in his book "Interview with an Exorcist". He was appointed an exorcist but is no longer practising. I suppose he'd had enough of it. It reminds me of a comment I heard from a Presbyterian pastor who'd had a ministy working with street kids when he said "I've just seen too much of it!" (the demonic).

"Demons were not created evil. (In fact, it is impossible for God, who is Goodness itself, to create anything evil.). Remember demons are just 'bad angels'. After God created the angels, He tested their fidelity to Him before admitting them to the Beatific Vision, the sight of his very essence. For purely spiritual beings, this "seeing" of God's essence would be a purely intellectual vision. Some angels obeyed the divine test; others did not. Those who disobeyed were irreversibly transformed into demons and cast out of heaven.

It may seem surprising that some angels would choose to hate God. But we need to understand that those who rebelled saw God no longer as a good - as the Good - but as the oppressor of their freedom. Hate was born as their wills resisted the call of God and held fast to the decision to leave the father's house.

(see Rev 12:7-9 - the war in heaven).

How can purely spiritual beings fight among themselves? What weapons do they use? Angels are spirits, so their battles must be purely intellectual. The only weapons that they can use are intellectual arguments. The angels gave reasons to the rebels for why they should return to obedience to God. The rebel angels countered with their reasons to support their position and spread their rebellion among the faithful angels. In this epic angelic battle, some who were inclined to rebel returned to obedience, while some of the faithful angels were seduced by the evil arguments of the rebels."

It is significant that Satan's original temptation to the human race was to rebel against God. He wanted us to follow in his footsteps.

ARBITER01 · Apr 25, 2024

Paleouss said:
I thought I would open up a thread in the proper place for the various views of the fallen angels, Nephilim, evil spirits, etc. My particular inquiry to start this thread is...

The existence of "evil spirits" can be sourced in the Bible (Luke 7:21, 8:2; Acts 19:12-13; Matt 12:27 and possibly 1Sam 16,18,19, but this can be disputed).

It is my understanding that there are two views.
(1) Evil spirits are fallen angels.
(2) Evil spirits are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim (the product of fallen angel and human women procreation).

If there is another view, I would like to hear it. Also, If you hold to one of the two options above (or one I haven't heard), what verses (within the Bible only please) do you use to establish this position? That is, the position of, evil spirits are....

Peace be to you

I agree with neither.

Angels are still angels. Satan is still around. He didn't change into some sort of demonic spirit, so why would we believe that any others did?

My personal belief is that demonic spirits are bodiless spirits that once had a body of some sort. I'm a GAP theory believer, so I tend to think that they were part of what earth used to be before satan's war in heaven and subsequent fall from it.

That's my personal belief on it. There's nothing in scripture that teaches what they were, so we are left to speculation on it.

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Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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Naked Bible 93: The Book of Enoch in the Early Church​

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As I already stated you don't have an original source for [(1) Evil spirits are fallen angels)]. So there is no basis for this position.​

​

The main source for [(2) Evil spirits are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim (the product of fallen angel and human women procreation).] is the Book of 1 Enoch, which the earlier church fathers agreed with.​

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the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing

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Naked Bible 93: The Book of Enoch in the Early Church

As I already stated you don't have an original source for [(1) Evil spirits are fallen angels)]. So there is no basis for this position.

The main source for [(2) Evil spirits are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim (the product of fallen angel and human women procreation).] is the Book of 1 Enoch, which the earlier church fathers agreed with.