If you believe the Blessed Virgin Mary sinned...

TPop said:

It is not truth.

It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Jesus’ mother Mary remained a virgin for her entire life. Is this concept biblical? Before we look at specific Scriptures, it is important to understand why the Roman Catholic Church believes in the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Roman Catholic Church views Mary as "the Mother of God" and "Queen of Heaven." Catholics believe Mary to have an exalted place in Heaven, with the closest access to Jesus and God the Father. Such a concept is nowhere taught in Scripture. Further, even if Mary did occupy such an exalted position, her having sexual intercourse would not have prevented her from gaining such a position. Sex in marriage is not sinful. Mary would have in no way defiled herself by having sexual relations with Joseph her husband. The entire concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary is based on an unbiblical teaching, Mary as Queen of Heaven, and on an unbiblical understanding of sex.

So, what does the Bible say about the perpetual virginity of Mary? Using the New American Bible, which is a Catholic translation, we can see that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not taught in the Bible. Matthew 1:25 NAB tells us, "He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus." He, Joseph, did not have sexual relations with her, Mary, UNTIL after she bore a son, Jesus." The meaning of this Scripture is abundantly clear. Joseph and Mary did not have sexual relations until after Jesus was born. Matthew 13:55-56 NAB declares, "Is He not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Are not His sisters all with us?" Catholics claim, correctly, that the Greek terms for "brothers" and "sisters" in these verses could also refer to male and female relatives, not necessarily literal brothers and sisters. However, the intended meaning is clear, they thought Jesus to be Joseph’s son, the son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas, and the brother of the unnamed and unnumbered sisters. Father, mother, brother, sister. It is straining the meaning of the text to interpret “brothers” and “sisters” as "cousins" or "relatives" with the mentioning of Jesus’ mother and father.

Matthew 12:46 NAB tells us, "While He was still speaking to the crowds, His mother and His brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with Him." See also Mark 3:31-34; Luke 8:19-21; John 2:12; and Acts 1:14. All mention Jesus’ mother with His brothers. If they were His cousins, or the sons of Joseph from a previous marriage, why were they mentioned with Mary so often? The idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary cannot be drawn from Scripture. It must be forced on Scripture, in contradiction to what the Scriptures clearly state.

Peace and Blessings

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I completely agree. The Scriptures don't teach the perpetual virginity of Mary. That is a belief that came from human reason but not the Scriptures. The Catholic church has tried to build Scriptural support for it but their arguments do not constitute proof. They will argue that "until" does not necessarily mean it happened after. They will argue that the word used for "brother" could refer to a cousin. None of that proves their interpretation and goes against the natural reading of the text. They don't need to establish Scriptural support though. In their beliefs the church can declare anything as truth and it is to be accepted as such. As long as there is some way the Scriptures could allow their belief, no matter how strained such an interpretation would be (and largely from silence), then that settles it for them. That is why arguing the Scriptures with Catholics, while still a good thing to do, won't accomplish much in the end because they accept the decisions of their church. Their faith is in their church more than the Scriptures.

Soulx3 said:

I was responding to arguments from you and others who said they did, as well as made other points.

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You come from a position of Mary, Queen of Heaven.
You come from a position of Sexual relations between a husband and wife make them unclean, dirty, or unsanctified.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

I completely agree. The Scriptures don't teach the perpetual virginity of Mary. That is a belief that came from human reason but not the Scriptures. The Catholic church has tried to build Scriptural support for it but their arguments do not constitute proof. They will argue that "until" does not necessarily mean it happened after. They will argue that the word used for "brother" could refer to a cousin. None of that proves their interpretation and goes against the natural reading of the text. They don't need to establish Scriptural support though. In their beliefs the church can declare anything as truth and it is to be accepted as such. As long as there is some way the Scriptures could allow their belief, no matter how strained such an interpretation would be (and largely from silence), then that settles it for them. That is why arguing the Scriptures with Catholics, while still a good thing to do, won't accomplish much in the end because they accept the decisions of their church. Their faith is in their church more than the Scriptures.

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Exactly. Faith in the RC Church over Scripture.
The Jews expected Jesus to reign over the world. They were wrong.
So RCC came along and did it militarily and with rules rules rules and misuse of scripture and texts.

And what is the offense of Mary having relations with her husband? There is none! They make it out to be.

Notice that so much of the RCC traditions cannot be demonstrated in scripture. Always hinted at but obfuscated.

Peace and Blessings

Soulx3 said:

Firstly, intercourse is sinful when it's committed out of lust. And, again, I, nor the Catholic Church, teaches that it would've sinful of Mary to have intercourse within Her marriage because that would be false. She and Joseph didn't have intercourse and procreate together because they both took a perpetual vow of chastity for God, yet were still blessed with a child: God Incarnate.

• It's not stated in any writings of God that married couples are required to have sexual intercourse and/or procreate.
• It's not stated in any writings of God that a married couple is prohibited from taking a vow of chastity for God.
• It's not stated anywhere in the New Testament that Joseph and Mary had intercourse at any point.
• If you believe Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's half-siblings, I remind you that it's not stated in any writings of God that they were the sons of Joseph and Mary, but rather only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3). In this thread I've provided scriptural verses from the New Testament, in addition to more explicit evidence, that collectively show that they were the sons of Jesus's uncle, Alphaeus (Joseph's brother), and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) who was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law (Jn. 19:25), and were thus His cousins.

In Matt. 12:46-47/Mk. 3:31-32/Lk. 8:19-20, Jesus's brothers who arrived with His mother to speak with Him were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus. Joseph and Simon had heard that Jesus had done carpentry work in Korazim for a widow who's husband had died, and they, particularly Joseph, was the most visually and vocally angry at Him for making money for her and her children, but not Jesus's own Mother, etc., but Jesus set him straight (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436). Joseph and Simon's brothers were the apostles James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus. Alphaeus was Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, which is why all four were His cousins. These cousins were often around and/or with Jesus because they all grew up closely together.

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Where is the vow of perpetual chastity?

Peace and Blessings

Matthew 1:25
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son,[a] and he named him Jesus.​

Implies they had a sexual relationship after Jesus.
RCC does not expect scripture to actually state Mary and Joseph a had XYZ type of intercourse do you?

Peace and Blessings

Soulx3 said:

It's in the writings of God that make up the multi-volume book entitled, "The Gospel As It Was Revealed To Me", or "The Poem of the Man-God". The Blessed Virgin Mary's parents consecrated Her to the Temple before She was born, then Mary lived in the Temple from the age of 3 until She came of age and was informed by the High Priest it was time to marry. Mary expressed to him Her vow of perpetual virginity and when She made it, then he advised Her to pray to God that He would bring Her a Spouse who understands Her vow.

Joseph of Nazareth, a Nazirite (Numbers 6:1–21) before, was chosen to be Her spouse, and when Mary spoke of Her vow to him He chose to be perpetually chaste for God as well. You can read about all that here.

Jesus also explained why the Blessed Virgin Mary was a perpetual Virgin if you're interested in that too.

You can thank Jesus for providing humanity with all this information.

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I do not care about any Apocrypha/none-breathed. They are not scripture. They are not even looked at as holy scripture by the Jews.

Peace and Blessings.

Soulx3 said:

Firstly, intercourse is sinful when it's committed out of lust.

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Just Red Hearings, strawmen, circular arguments, exaggerations, etc.

Your statements can't stand on their own. So you point out shadows to obfuscate and de-clarify the topic and context. You introduce your own false arguments over and over and then use them to attempt to demonstrate the truth. I really don't get why you do this and don't see it, except that it is done intentionally.

Which makes you appear wholly untrustworthy and your statements doubly so.

Peace and Blessings

Soulx3 said:

Baseless accusations.

You misrepresented me and the Catholic Church saying, "You come from a position of sexual relations between a husband and wife make them unclean, dirty, or unsanctified." I, nor the Catholic Church, say that. What God says, and thus what we say, is that lust can lead to sin, such as sexual depravity for example, whether married or not.

"No one is to say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it has run its course, brings forth death" (Jas. 1:13-15)

Joseph and Mary didn't have sexual intercourse and procreate together because they both took a perpetual vow of chastity for God, yet were still blessed with a child: God Incarnate.

• It is not stated in any writings of God that married couples are required to have sexual intercourse and/or procreate.
• It is not stated in any writings of God that a married couple is prohibited from taking a vow of chastity for God.
• It is not stated anywhere in the writings of God that make up the books in the New Testament that Joseph and Mary had sexual intercourse at any point.
• It is stated in the writings of God that make up the multi-volume book entitled "The Poem of the Man-God" that Joseph and Mary were chaste throughout their lives, including throughout their marriage, for God.
• If you believe Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's half-siblings, I remind you that it is not stated in any writings of God that they were the sons of Joseph and Mary, but rather only Jesus is called the son of Joseph and Mary (Matt. 13:55, Mk. 6:3). In this thread I've provided scriptural verses from the New Testament, in addition to more explicit evidence, that collectively show that they were the sons of Jesus's uncle, Alphaeus (Joseph's brother), and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus) who was Mary of Joseph's sister-in-law (Jn. 19:25), and were thus His cousins.

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No I did not. You misrepresented yourself and left it up to others to weed through your statements to find the truth you eventually got to.
You lump love and sex into Lust. There is yours and the RCC first problem. Sex is to be enjoyable. Not a process.
You insert lust. When no one is talking about it. It is not in context. It is irrelevant. And then you go on and on about what is not stated.
What was not stated in your very first post was hiding the fact that you believe Mary was an eternal virgin.

Hide, obfuscate, then post statement after statement that was never part of the discussion, in view, or of concern.

Peace and Blessings

Soulx3 said:

The following questions are addressed to those who believe the Blessed Virgin Mary actively sinned. What are your answers?

• Why did the prophet, Isaiah, refer to Mary by the title "the virgin" as opposed to "a virgin," if Her virginal vow was to be temporary?
• Why did Mary need to be a virgin in order to conceive and raise God Incarnate?
• Why did Mary ask the angel, Gabriel, "How is this possible when I know not man?" when She was already married by that time, and if you believe Her and Joseph were having intercourse?
• Why did God have the Ark of the Covenant be made with the purest materials to carry the written Word, but had an impure ark (Mary) carry the Word made flesh?

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In the Bible, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is considered to be a righteous and sinless woman. This belief stems from several passages in both the Old and New Testaments. I believe that Mary was sinless throughout her entire life.

Here is why:
First, it is important to note that Mary was chosen by God to be the mother of His Son, Jesus Christ (Luke 1:26-38). The angel Gabriel announced to her that she would conceive and bear a son through the Holy Spirit. Mary responded with faith, submitting herself completely to God's will (Luke 1:38).

The New Testament also attests to Mary's sinlessness. In her Magnificat prayer, Mary praised God for His mercy and righteousness (Luke 1:46-55). She also was commended by Elizabeth as "blessed among women" because she believed that the promise of God would be fulfilled in her (Luke 1:42, 45). Furthermore, Mary is often referred to as "full of grace" or "highly favored" (Luke 1:28, 30), indicating her sinless state. This is also supported by the fact that she was preserved from original sin at the moment of her conception (Catholic doctrine).

It should be noted that this belief in Mary's perpetual virginity and sinlessness is not a requirement for salvation, but rather a long-standing Christian tradition based on the teachings of Scripture.

Therefore, according to the Bible, Mary did not sin because she was chosen by God and remained faithful to His will throughout her life. Her purity and righteousness serve as an example for all believers to follow.

Now, I will answer your questions, and explain why Mary was sinless.
1. In the Bible, when Isaiah referred to Mary as "the virgin," it was a title signifying her purity and sinlessness rather than a description of a temporary state. This prophecy, given centuries before Mary's birth, spoke of the coming Messiah being born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). When Mary was chosen to be the mother of Jesus, she fulfilled this ancient prophecy.

2. Mary's virginity at the time of Jesus' conception and birth was essential because it ensured that He was born without the stain of original sin. As God Incarnate, Jesus was both fully divine and fully human. His humanity came from Mary, and her sinlessness ensured that He entered the world in a state of holiness and purity.

3. When Mary asked the angel Gabriel, "“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?" (Luke 1:34), she was expressing her confusion and amazement at the miraculous conception that God had planned for her. Her question did not imply any lack of knowledge about her marital status or relationship with Joseph, but rather her inability to comprehend how she could conceive without a man.

4. The Ark of the Covenant and Mary, as the "human ark" carrying God's Word, served different purposes in biblical history. The Ark was a physical container used to house and protect the Ten Commandments, representing the covenant relationship between God and His people (Exodus 25:10-22). Mary, on the other hand, was a vessel through whom God chose to become man and enter into a personal relationship with humanity. While both the Ark and Mary played significant roles in God's plan, they served different functions and should not be directly compared.

Soulx3 said:

The following questions are addressed to those who believe the Blessed Virgin Mary actively sinned. What are your answers?

• Why did the prophet, Isaiah, refer to Mary by the title "the virgin" as opposed to "a virgin," if Her virginal vow was to be temporary?
• Why did Mary need to be a virgin in order to conceive and raise God Incarnate?
• Why did Mary ask the angel, Gabriel, "How is this possible when I know not man?" when She was already married by that time, and if you believe Her and Joseph were having intercourse?
• Why did God have the Ark of the Covenant be made with the purest materials to carry the written Word, but had an impure ark (Mary) carry the Word made flesh?

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I don’t see sin associated with any of these statements. These are referring to her virginity not whether or not she sinned. The truth is nobody knows if she remained a virgin or not so why even create such a doctrine that cannot be biblically supported? Doctrines should only be formulated on what can without a doubt be supported by the scriptures, not based on ambiguous passages that could have numerous interpretations or meanings.

TPop said:

Sex between a husband and wife is more than just for procreation. It is for enjoyment. Only your twisted religion makes this a world a rules with a few things you can do. It is the opposite. It is a world of a few things you cannot do and all the rest of Good. Good!

Sex with your spouse is a gift from God! The only sexual immorality/sin is outside of marriage. You add to the scriptures. You and your RCC. Always adding to and forbidding and permitting not. Your religion is a teacher of rules. You reduce marriage and sex to a contract and a responsibility,.

A married couple is to have sexual relations so that they are not tempted!

[1Co 7:2-5 KJV] 2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. 4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. 5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

Sex is good! It is part of building and maintaining a relationship.


Well yea. Because that is what it can do. Result in Children!
You think a baby is made every time one has sex?
Do you not think making, and working to get pregnant can be fun? Sorry for you and your guilt-ridden small world/life.
You have twisted what God created and made good and enjoyable into lewd and bad. You do this. And your church. Not God.

You are the depraved one. Either Torturing yourself over nothing. Or not even married.
You make up little rules that box you in where there are none. You must be incapable of having a healthy relationship. Again, that is on you.
Your rules do not apply to God's Creation. Thank the Lord for that!

And if that is what the RCC or any other church believes, that is sad. And you have houses full of hypocrites. YOU make Hypocrites of people!

Peace and Blessings

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@TPop, I appreciate your passionate defense of the joys and pleasures of marriage, but I must respectfully challenge some of your assertions regarding my perspective and that of the Catholic Church. I believe it is essential to clarify a few points based on biblical teachings.

Firstly, you stated that the Catholic Church says that sex between a husband and wife makes them unclean or unsanctified. I want to make it clear that this is not the Catholic belief. Instead, we acknowledge that lust can lead to sin (James 1:13-15). The Bible teaches us that when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, when it has run its course, brings forth death. This passage makes it clear that lust is the source of sin, not the sexual act itself between a married couple.

Regarding your assertion that God only intends for sex to be for procreation, I would refer you to Paul's teachings in 1 Corinthians 7:2-5. Here, Paul encourages married couples to have sexual relations to avoid fornication. He states that each spouse has power over their own body but should not defraud one another, except with consent for a time to give themselves to fasting and prayer. This passage emphasizes the importance of sexual intimacy in marriage as a means of avoiding temptation, not just for procreation.

Furthermore, your accusations that the Catholic Church reduces marriage to a contract and focus on rules seem misplaced. The Bible itself offers numerous teachings on the importance of love, commitment, and selflessness in marriage (Ephesians 5:21-33; Colossians 3:14). While it is true that we must adhere to moral principles, it is not a denial of the joys and pleasures of marriage but rather an acknowledgment of the need for self-control and fidelity.

In conclusion, I believe it is essential to approach discussions on marriage and sexual morality with a nuanced understanding of biblical teachings. While we should celebrate the joys and pleasures of marriage, we must also recognize the potential for sin and the need for self-control and fidelity. I invite you to reconsider your perspective in light of these biblical truths.

AlexB23 said:

@TPop, I appreciate your passionate defense of the joys and pleasures of marriage, but I must respectfully challenge some of your assertions regarding my perspective and that of the Catholic Church. I believe it is essential to clarify a few points based on biblical teachings.

Firstly, you stated that the Catholic Church says that sex between a husband and wife makes them unclean or unsanctified.

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I stated this because the poster is stating that their belief and that of the RCC is that Sex is never for pleasure. Please correct the other poster if you disagree. I know what God created sex for. Procreation and Intimacy between a husband and wife.

AlexB23 said:

I want to make it clear that this is not the Catholic belief. Instead, we acknowledge that lust can lead to sin (James 1:13-15). The Bible teaches us that when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin, when it has run its course, brings forth death. This passage makes it clear that lust is the source of sin, not the sexual act itself between a married couple.

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Why do you insist on including 'lust' with the topic of sex between a husband and wife. The lust you speak of is about unmarried people. And married people are to share their bodies with their spouses. If neither of you nor your RCC can differentiate between Lust between unmarried persons and desire between married persons, I don't know what to tell you? You will have to figure it out. I already have.

Husbands and Wives not only have sex to build a family, they have it because they desire it with each other.

AlexB23 said:

Regarding your assertion that God only intends for sex to be for procreation, I would refer you to Paul's teachings in 1 Corinthians 7:2-5. Here, Paul encourages married couples to have sexual relations to avoid fornication. He states that each spouse has power over their own body but should not defraud one another, except with consent for a time to give themselves to fasting and prayer. This passage emphasizes the importance of sexual intimacy in marriage as a means of avoiding temptation, not just for procreation.

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My statements are in response to the other poster making the statement that they and the RCC believe sex is Only for Procreation. That is not my position.

AlexB23 said:

Furthermore, your accusations that the Catholic Church reduces marriage to a contract and focus on rules seem misplaced. The Bible itself offers numerous teachings on the importance of love, commitment, and selflessness in marriage (Ephesians 5:21-33; Colossians 3:14). While it is true that we must adhere to moral principles, it is not a denial of the joys and pleasures of marriage but rather an acknowledgment of the need for self-control and fidelity.

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My statements are in response to the other poster making the statement that they and the RCC believe sex is Only for Procreation. That is not my position.

AlexB23 said:

In conclusion, I believe it is essential to approach discussions on marriage and sexual morality with a nuanced understanding of biblical teachings. While we should celebrate the joys and pleasures of marriage, we must also recognize the potential for sin and the need for self-control and fidelity. I invite you to reconsider your perspective in light of these biblical truths.

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You have not read the exchange carefully enough.
My statements are in response to the other poster making the statement that they and the RCC believe sex is Only for Procreation. That is not my position.
They then brought lust into it. Husbands and Wives have desire for each other. And there is nothing wrong with that. The lust you and the other poster speak of is outside of marriage.
Most if not all of your concerns originate in the other poster's responses, where for the poster, sex is only for procreation.

Peace and Blessings

NotUrAvgGuy said:

I completely agree. The Scriptures don't teach the perpetual virginity of Mary. That is a belief that came from human reason but not the Scriptures.

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That Mary was a virgin has been passed down to us through history. There are not a lot of historical records that survived from earliest Christianity, the earliest record is from a time when human beings who were alive at the time of Mary's death were still alive. This was long before Protestantism. As I have pointed out elsewhere, your claim "that Mary and Joseph had other children as mentioned in Scripture" is false.