- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,192
- 25,222
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
Keeping with the theme of the OP, when one makes a “choice to have faith”, is that choice made in the flesh?
Upvote
0
The mind set on the flesh
- Thread starter Hammster
- Start date
Paleouss
Active Member
Far enough. You want to explore it specifiecally.
Since many denominations, let alone beliefs, have different meanings to different words that seem common but hold different truths to each person. When you say...
Is the topic the intial regeneration, i.e., the point of salvation? Or are we speaking of the whole ball of wax, if you will, i.e., justification, regeneration, renewal, sanctification, etc?
You went on to write,
You will have to inform me on whether you are bringing in the concept of atonement OR if we are just exploring the initial point of faith and being in the Spirit. That is, the question of, at the point of faith has the Spirit already done "some" work. Or, I guess you might mean, at the point of faith has the Spirit already done "all" the work.
I'm not sure about your use of "reason is" here. But regarding your assertion that God is pleased with mankinds "faith or belief", this seems biblically true to me.
I beieve this is also true.
I'm assuming that the "or" is a typo and should read "are". In regard to your assertion, yes, obedience for the Christian is accomplished through being in the Spirit. We can site verses for this. Your question, more specifically, isn't about those who are already Christians and are called to walk as if alive from the dead or live an active faith. Your topic is about those that are yet to become Christians. (If I am reading your topic correctly).
So here is how I understand your argument. If within the bibilical text, it says that
(1) Christians must walk in the Spirit (be in the spirit) to please God.
And
(2) God is pleased when Christians walk in the spirit and is not pleased when one walks in the flesh.
Then
(3) mankind must be in the Spirit to make a choice of faith because God would be pleased with the choice of faith in the positive.
So if God is only pleased when Christians are in the Spirit then it would seem to follow that the not yet believer (but will be a believer) must be in the Spirit...because God is pleased.
Is that close?
Upvote
0
In this case let's imagine they read Luke and Luke 11:13 and believing everything in Luke, believing in the Messiah, they then ask for the Holy Spirit.
They started reading as an unbeliever and over the course of time reading, they believed.
So yes they were in the flesh, a sinner, but before they were born, God planned that Luke would be available for them to read.
Reading Luke and having a believing response therefore starts them on the path to pleasing God.
And because it was Gods plan that the book of Luke be available, God is the initiator.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Upvote
0
- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,192
- 25,222
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
Though you didn’t answer my question, I’ll address this.
You said they believed, yet were also in the flesh.
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
— Romans 8:5
I would think we would agree that believing would be setting one’s mind on things of the Spirit. And according to Paul, one cannot be in the flesh and set their mind on things of the Spirit. It’s not even able to do so.
Upvote
0
those who are according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Therefore, one opening the book of Luke and reading it, is setting their mind on the things of the Spirit,
beginning them on a path to faith.
For faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Upvote
0
- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,192
- 25,222
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
Then when they do so, they are in the Spirit. They have been made regenerate. We are on the same page.
Upvote
0
For me personally I didn't know much about the Bible or God's law when I came to faith. As I got convicted I understood I had lived without serving Christ my whole life and I realzed I was going to be condemned because of that. I did understand God had sent Jesus to die for our sins for our salvation. So that is why I turned to Christ.
I don't know if I fully follow your logic here. In the flesh you can't love God, but by conviction you realize you need Christ's forgiveness. That hasn't anything to do with love, it's simply understanding facts. So as a sinner realizes he needs Christ he turns to Christ, not out of love, but through being humbled by the fact he is under condemnation. Then as he receives Christ's forgiveness he starts to love Christ.
Those who have been forgiven much also loves much.
New International Version
"Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.” - Luke 7:47
Upvote
0
Salvation does not happen in an instance, that is, being born again.
Being born again is the process of following the indwelt Holy Spirit, as Paul said: Romans 8:14.
One does not have to be any certain way, or predestined, in order to receive the Spirit, the Spirit is available for free by grace,
due to the death and resurrection of Christ. [ Luke 11:13 Galatians 3:2 Ephesians 1:13 Ephesians 2:8 Acts 2:38 ]
One does not have to be in the Spirit to believe,
rather one believes to receive the Spirit.
Certainly God is not pleased with a mind set on the flesh.
"But if the wicked turn from his wickedness and do what is lawful and right...
all his wickedness that he did will not be mentioned against him"
Ezekiel 18:21 Ezekiel 18:22
And certainly God gives room for such turning.
Upvote
0
Paleouss
Active Member
Good morning Hammster. I hope you had a blessed evening.
Just looking at the verse you presented as data for your assertion. It appears to me that the verse in and of itself may be lacking as the only verse needed. But maybe it doesn't. I'll think through it as I write.
It would appear that Paul, in his letter to the Romans, is speaking to Christians. That is, those that already believe and have the Spirit within. He writes in Romans 8:1-2, "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus...". So these readers he is addresssing already have the Spirit of Christ unto eternal life (or he assumes such).
In Romans 8:3-4 it appears that Paul speaks about the salvation part unto the Christian walk, speaking to how the Spirit has done what the law could not, but then goes on in v4 to say that the Spirit has accomplished this so the "righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us". And the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled so that those are able to not "walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Rom 8:4).
Then in Romans 8:12-13 Paul writes,
So here is the point I'm trying to get too. Christians already have the Spirit. The Spirit is within them doing the Spirit's work. But Paul is telling these Christians to not live according to the flesh.
(1) Christians already have the Spirit
(2) Christians can either live according to the Spirit or according to the flesh. For Paul bascially tells them to not live acccording to the flesh.
This concept of rebucking Christians who have received the Spirit but don't walk in the flesh is common within Paul's writings. In Paul’s vernacular this is expressed as, “therefore…we also should walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4), and also present oneself “to God as being alive from the dead” (Rom 6:13), and one should also present one’s “members as slaves of righteousness for holiness” (Rom 6:19) which is one’s “reasonable service” (Rom 12:1).
So with the Spirit at work, faith is needed for God to be pleased. Or as James puts it, "faith was active" (Jam 2:22). So if it is the case that the Christian has the Spirit within yet needs and active faith for God to be pleased, then it would follow that for God to be pleased the spirit and the act of faith is required.
But you want to apply what God says about a Christian walk, walking in the flesh or walking in the Spirit and apply it to the unbeliever (that becomes a believer). But are they both enough the same to do such? At least with this verse only?
My apologies, I must end this post. Have other life issues that need attention. I'll be back later.
May God do a fruitful work through you, my brother.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,192
- 25,222
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
If you didn’t know about God’s law, then what were you convicted of?
Why would anyone listen to facts from someone whom they hate and despise?
Okay. So your premise of pleasing God having to do with the law has no merit and we can move on.
According to your theology, forgiveness happened at the cross, since Christ died for everyone’s sins.
Upvote
0
- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,192
- 25,222
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
Yes, it does.
Not what Paul said.
Lots of verses with no context.
So you now say you can please God in the flesh?
That was to the nation, not individuals. Read to the end.
Mkay.
Upvote
0
- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,192
- 25,222
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
The passage you skipped is where Paul contrasts those he is writing to with the unsaved world. Paul contrasts a lot in this manner in his writings. See Galatians 6, for example.Good morning Hammster. I hope you had a blessed evening.
Just looking at the verse you presented as data for your assertion. It appears to me that the verse in and of itself may be lacking as the only verse needed. But maybe it doesn't. I'll think through it as I write.
It would appear that Paul, in his letter to the Romans, is speaking to Christians. That is, those that already believe and have the Spirit within. He writes in Romans 8:1-2, "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus...". So these readers he is addresssing already have the Spirit of Christ unto eternal life (or he assumes such).
In Romans 8:3-4 it appears that Paul speaks about the salvation part unto the Christian walk, speaking to how the Spirit has done what the law could not, but then goes on in v4 to say that the Spirit has accomplished this so the "righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us". And the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled so that those are able to not "walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Rom 8:4).
Then in Romans 8:12-13 Paul writes,
So here is the point I'm trying to get too. Christians already have the Spirit. The Spirit is within them doing the Spirit's work. But Paul is telling these Christians to not live according to the flesh.
(1) Christians already have the Spirit
(2) Christians can either live according to the Spirit or according to the flesh. For Paul bascially tells them to not live acccording to the flesh.
This concept of rebucking Christians who have received the Spirit but don't walk in the flesh is common within Paul's writings. In Paul’s vernacular this is expressed as, “therefore…we also should walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4), and also present oneself “to God as being alive from the dead” (Rom 6:13), and one should also present one’s “members as slaves of righteousness for holiness” (Rom 6:19) which is one’s “reasonable service” (Rom 12:1).
So with the Spirit at work, faith is needed for God to be pleased. Or as James puts it, "faith was active" (Jam 2:22). So if it is the case that the Christian has the Spirit within yet needs and active faith for God to be pleased, then it would follow that for God to be pleased the spirit and the act of faith is required.
But you want to apply what God says about a Christian walk, walking in the flesh or walking in the Spirit and apply it to the unbeliever (that becomes a believer). But are they both enough the same to do such? At least with this verse only?
My apologies, I must end this post. Have other life issues that need attention. I'll be back later.
May God do a fruitful work through you, my brother.
Upvote
0
My conscience, the law written in my heart. I knew I had done some bad things in my life. I got convicted when I understood Christ had died for our sins. I accepted what I had known all my life, that I was not righteous. But it was first upon conviction I understood there was judgment for not being righteous.
I think the way you put is not the complete truth. It's true the unbeliever has an aversion towards God and what is holy, but upon conviction that resistance is broken, and the unbeliever actually wants forgiveness. It's not like the unbeliever loves God or truth yet, but the aversion has turned into a willingness to turn to God. That's what conviction does.
I didn't mean it like that. All humans have the knowing of right and wrong, the law of God in the heart (except maybe psychopaths). We know when we act wrong. People like to get around it, but in reality they know, they just ignore what they know is true and make up excuses. The written law is proving what we already know in the heart to be true, and the written law is giving a more precise explanation of what is right and wrong. It's also another evidence that there is right and wrong, and that morality comes from God. The law has as I see it two purposes. The first purpose is to convict the unbeliever. The second purpose is to give the believer rules in life to follow.
We please God when we follow the law of God through love, which includes things like asking for forgiveness when we sin and follow Christ with mind and soul.
No, according to my theology forgiveness happens when we receive Christ.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Paleouss
Active Member
My apologies, I thought I would save some time on what you had already presented. But the point of my post still holds. That is, the verses you presented has context that is found at the beginning of Romans 8 and continues past your presented verses. All of them go together. This context gives additional insight, IMO.
1) Paul is speaking to Christians, those that have the Spirit witihin. They are expected to set their minds on the Spirit. It is their reasonable service. However, we know that this requires an active faith.
2) Paul's objective in Romans 8:1-13, it would appear, is to tell Christians to live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh. The contrast of the two "worlds" is Paul showing how not to walk as a Christian. Don't walk as you did when you were dead in sin.
He contrasts the "unsaved world" (as you put it) to present the dicotomy to the Christians to which he is speaking. You are Christian, you have been brought into right standing with God by grace, blood, and faith. Do not walk in your old ways, the ways of death, the ways of the world. But walk as if alive, in the Spirit.
A) Those of the flesh set their minds to the flesh.
B) Those of the Spirit set their minds to the Spirit.
This dicotomy is not only one of the spiritually dead and spiritually alive, but a dicotomy of the Christain walk. James called the one that has the Spirit but lives as if he were dead a double-minded man. That is, the Christian, who has the Spirit at work witihin, still must have an active faith so as to set the mind to spiritual things, or be in the Spirit.
So God is only pleased when the mind is set to the Spirit. In that, I say amen. And God is never pleased when the mind is set to the flesh. In that, I say amen as well. However, the phrase 'in the Spirit', or setting the 'mind on the Spirit', or 'walk in the Spirit' is used exclusively with those already in the body within the biblical text (as far as I know). So there is the rub. At least for me. You are using a verse that clearly is speaking to Christians about the Christian walk. The Spirit is already there, within, yet God can still not be pleased because the mind, the active faith, is not set to the Spirit.
So I think that the use of "in the Spirit" regarding the dead coming alive in Christ is misused. There are ample verses to argue that the Spirit must work logically before faith accepts. I just don't think Romans 8 is one of them.
Peace be to you my brother
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,192
- 25,222
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
Let’s see.
as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
“Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their paths,
And the path of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
— Romans 3:10-18
That’s the description of the unregenerate man. What part of that description leads you to believe that he would want anything to do with God in this state?
If we know right from wrong, then we know that it’s good to repent, correct?
That would include loving the Lord with all our heart, etc. Do you see the unregenerate man in Romans 3 doing that?
Okay. So you at least hold to a form of limited atonement.
Upvote
0
- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,192
- 25,222
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
Are you saying that Paul’s argument is that the regenerate man, when acting according to the flesh, cannot please God?
Upvote
0
I think this is the very drastic way the Bible says everyone in themselves are sinners. I don't think it is a description of the convicted ungenerated man, but rather a description of the sinful nature of people without God's interaction, showing that no one is righteous on their own.
I don't think an unbeliever who has a limited knowledge of right and wrong understands repentance is a good thing, since he does not understand we are under judgment unless we repent. The only way for him to understand that part I believe is by conviction.
No, neither do I see the convicted man doing that. Loving God with all our heart is the privilege of the born again believer.
I wouldn't say, since I believe Jesus took the punishment for all sin in the whole world, every single person. It just don't hold the view having a payment for our sins equals being forgiven, since I believe the payment needs to be received by faith to result in forgiveness.
Upvote
0
- Apr 5, 2007
- 140,192
- 25,222
- 55
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Reformed
- Marital Status
- Married
You’ve conveniently created category that the Bible doesn’t describe. I see lost/found, dead/alive, blind/sight, sheep/goats, etc. Nothing about “convicted regenerate”.
So he knows what he’s doing is wrong, but not that he should stop?
I’m still having trouble responding to the description of a man not found in scripture.
And we are back to another category not found in scripture. That of a man who kinda has his sins atoned for.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
There is no specific name for a convicted believer in the Bible, I'll give you that. There is only in the flesh or in the Spirit. The convicted believer is still in the flesh. Why would the Bible have a specific name for it other than being in the flesh?
The passages we have discussed describes convicted people.
And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
— Acts 16:29-30
Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
— Acts 2:37
He knows he should stop, but wants to keep living in sin until he is convicted. He doesn't understand he is under judgment. He does need to understand that to be willing to stop and be willing to turn to Christ.
“And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
— Acts 3:17-20
And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
— Acts 10:42-43
Do you find somewhere in the NT where it says a person is forgiven before he has faith or that Christ death on the cross gives us (the elect) instant forgiveness? If not you have made a new category not found in Scripture.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Similar threads
