The mind set on the flesh

[zoidar]

You said we could. That’s your whole argument about Acts 16.

No, not 100% at face value. It's not possible.

 

[zoidar]

Go right ahead.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
— Romans 8:6-7

My first question is: What does Paul refer to when he speaks about the law of God? The flesh cannot subject itself to the law of God. Can ceremonial and sacrifical laws be included. No, since we all know it's not hard for the flesh to make sacrifices or do ritual cleansing. So that can't be what Paul refers to, since that part the flesh can do. My suggestion is that Paul speaks about the moral law, specifically the Ten Commandments. What do I base that on? Going back to the previous passage we see how Paul talks about the conflict between the two natures, how he is not able do what he wants, but does the very thing he doesn't want to do.

For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
— Romans 7:19

Like I said some posts back, Paul can hardly be talking about repentance, since how is it possible he wants to repent but practice unrepentance. It just doesn't seem to fit the context. Also we see an example what Paul means by the law in Rom 7:7.

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
— Romans 7:7

"You shall not covet" is one of the Ten Commandments written on stone. So it is an indicator that Paul specifically refers to the moral law, the Ten Commandments as the law of God, when he continues in Rom 8.

So when Paul says ...

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8

... he means the mind set on the flesh won't and aren't able to obey the moral law, the Ten Commandments. On the other hand the mind set on the Spirit is able and does obey the moral law. Since those of the flesh won't and aren't able to obey the Ten Commandments, consequently they cannot please God. So I don't think pleasing God has anything to do with repentance in this context, but all to do with being able to follow the moral law or not.

 

[Hammster]

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
— Romans 8:6-7

My first question is: What does Paul refer to when he speaks about the law of God? The flesh cannot subject itself to the law of God. Can ceremonial and sacrifical laws be included. No, since we all know it's not hard for the flesh to make sacrifices or do ritual cleansing. So that can't be what Paul refers to, since that part the flesh can do. My suggestion is that Paul speaks about the moral law, specifically the Ten Commandments. What do I base that on? Going back to the previous passage we see how Paul talks about the conflict between the two natures, how he is not able do what he wants, but does the very thing he doesn't want to do.

For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
— Romans 7:19

Like I said some posts back, Paul can hardly be talking about repentance, since how is it possible he wants to repent but practice unrepentance. It just doesn't seem to fit the context. Also we see an example what Paul means by the law in Rom 7:7.

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
— Romans 7:7

"You shall not covet" is one of the Ten Commandments written on stone. So it is an indicator that Paul specifically refers to the moral law, the Ten Commandments as the law of God, when he continues in Rom 8.

So when Paul says ...

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:6-8

... he means the mind set on the flesh is not willing or able to obey the moral law, the Ten Commandments. On the other hand the mind set on the Spirit is able and wants to obey the moral law. Since those of the flesh aren't willing or able to obey the Ten Commandments, consequently they cannot please God. So I don't think pleasing God has anything to do with repentance in this context, but all to do with being able to follow the moral law or not.

Do you hold your position that Paul is speaking of his unregenerate state?

 

[zoidar]

Do you hold your position that Paul is speaking of his unregenerate state?

Yes!

I made a few small corrections of the last part of my previous post.

"... he means the mind set on the flesh won't and aren't able to obey the moral law, the Ten Commandments. On the other hand the mind set on the Spirit is able and does obey the moral law. Since those of the flesh won't and aren't able to obey the Ten Commandments, consequently they cannot please God. So I don't think pleasing God has anything to do with repentance in this context, but all to do with being able to follow the moral law or not."

 

[Hammster]

Yes!

I made a few small corrections of the last part of my previous post.

"... he means the mind set on the flesh won't and aren't able to obey the moral law, the Ten Commandments. On the other hand the mind set on the Spirit is able and does obey the moral law. Since those of the flesh won't and aren't able to obey the Ten Commandments, consequently they cannot please God. So I don't think pleasing God has anything to do with repentance in this context, but all to do with being able to follow the moral law or not."

Okay. What are people repenting of?

 

[zoidar]

Okay. What are people repenting of?

Repentance means acknowledging Christ died for our sins, wanting to be free from sin and turning to God for forgiveness for not having followed Christ as Lord. This is done by the convicted man of flesh.

 

[Hammster]

Repentance means acknowledging Christ died for our sins, wanting to be free from sin and turning to God for forgiveness for not having followed Christ as Lord. This is done by the convicted man of flesh.

Wouldn’t they need to have their mind set on the law first?

 

[contratodo]

If the only way to please God is to be in the Spirit, then the argument would be that one must be in the Spirit before he or she can be obedient to Christ’s command to believe and repent.

But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, none of this applies to him.
Romans 8:9

faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:2

If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children,
shall not the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?
Luke 11:13

... after that you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise
Ephesians 1:13


Receiving the Holy Spirit is for free by grace, for the asking, for believing.


And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of Him that rose Christ from the dead dwell in you,
He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies
by His Spirit that is in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh,
to live after the flesh.
Because if you live after the flesh, you shall die.
But if you through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh,
you shall live.
Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are born again.
Romans 8:10-14


Be not deceived, God is not mocked.
For whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.
He that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.
He that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
And let us not be weary in well doing, for in due time we shall reap,
if we faint not.
Galatians 6:7-9

 

[zoidar]

Wouldn’t they need to have their mind set on the law first?

The mind set on the law? I don't see this phrase in the Bible. So not sure how to answer. I will say though, the work of the law is written on everyone's heart, even those who don't got the written law, so no one has any excuse. Everyone knows it's wrong to steal even they don't have it written. People instinctively know what is right and wrong, even without the written law.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
— Romans 2:14-15

 

[Hammster]

But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, none of this applies to him.
Romans 8:9

faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:2

If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children,
shall not the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?
Luke 11:13

... after that you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise
Ephesians 1:13


Receiving the Holy Spirit is for free by grace, for the asking, for believing.


And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of Him that rose Christ from the dead dwell in you,
He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies
by His Spirit that is in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh,
to live after the flesh.
Because if you live after the flesh, you shall die.
But if you through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh,
you shall live.
Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are born again.
Romans 8:10-14


Be not deceived, God is not mocked.
For whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.
He that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption.
He that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
And let us not be weary in well doing, for in due time we shall reap,
if we faint not.
Galatians 6:7-9

Is this just random quote day?

 

[Hammster]

The mind set on the law? I don't see this phrase in the Bible. So not sure how to answer. I will say though, the work of the law is written on everyone's heart, even those who don't got the written law, so no one has any excuse. Everyone knows it's wrong to steal even they don't have it written. People instinctively know what is right and wrong, even without the written law.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
— Romans 2:14-15

To acknowledge that “Christ died for our sins”, they would have to acknowledge that they have sinned against God’s law.

There are two types of people listed in Romans 8. There are those whose minds are set on the flesh, and those whose minds are set on the Spirit. And we know that those in the flesh cannot please God. Your contention is that pleasing God only refers to the Ten Commandments. And that is what those in the flesh cannot do to please God. Yet the first four commandments have to do with loving God. So for your premise to be true, you have those in the flesh who “won't and aren't able to obey the moral law, the Ten Commandments”, which means they do not follow the commandment to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, would somehow acknowledge that they sinned against this God whom they hate.

I don’t see how this is possible.

 

[returntosender]

Are you saying that you Can be in the spirit before you are born again?

 

[contratodo]

Is this just random quote day?

No. Having the Spirit is free for the asking. By grace, through faith. And faith comes by hearing the word of God.

An unregenerate person, hearing the word of God, can come to be sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Being sealed with the Holy Spirit they then can follow the Spirit to regeneration.

Following the Spirit is being born again, not just having the Spirit. Having the Spirit is for free by grace.

 

[Hammster]

Are you saying that you Can be in the spirit before you are born again?

I’m saying you must be born again before you are in the Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

No. Having the Spirit is free for the asking. By grace, through faith. And faith comes by hearing the word of God.

An unregenerate person, hearing the word of God, can come to be sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Being sealed with the Holy Spirit they then can follow the Spirit to regeneration.

Following the Spirit is being born again, not just having the Spirit. Having the Spirit is for free by grace.

Does having the Spirit come by asking, or hearing?

 

[contratodo]

Does having the Spirit come by asking, or hearing?

Faith comes by hearing.
For example one could hear Luke 11:13 believe it and then ask the Father for the Holy Spirit.

Ultimately having the Spirit comes from the death and resurrection of Christ,
He is the reason anyone can be indwelt by the Spirit for free.

He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In times past God overlooked men's ignorant sin,
but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
because He has appointed a day in which they will be judged by Christ whom He has appointed,
and He has given assurance unto all mankind, in that He rose Christ from the dead.
Acts 17:30-31 [ Acts 17:22-31 ]

 

[Hammster]

Faith comes by hearing.
For example one could hear Luke 11:13 believe it and then ask the Father for the Holy Spirit.

Ultimately having the Spirit comes from the death and resurrection of Christ,
He is the reason anyone can be indwelt by the Spirit for free.

He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In times past God overlooked men's ignorant sin,
but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
because He has appointed a day in which they will be judged by Christ whom He has appointed,
and He has given assurance unto all mankind, in that He rose Christ from the dead.
Acts 17:30-31 [ Acts 17:22-31 ]

When one asks, are they asking in the flesh?

 

[contratodo]

When one asks, are they asking in the flesh?

Faith comes by hearing.
One asking as a result of the word of God, would then be asking out of faith.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for.

One reading Luke 11:13 and believing it, and then asking the Father for the Holy Spirit, would be asking out of faith,
hoping to have the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

Faith comes by hearing.
One asking as a result of the word of God, would then be asking out of faith.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for.

One reading Luke 11:13 and believing it, and then asking the Father for the Holy Spirit, would be asking out of faith,
hoping to have the Holy Spirit.

I’ll ask again. When one asks, are they asking in the flesh?

 

[Paleouss]

When it comes to regeneration, there are two arguments.

Mankind 'becomes' in right standing with God through grace, blood, and faith (Rom 3:24-25, Rom 5:9, Rom 5:1). God's grace and blood brings us into right standing. Choice to have faith brings us into right standing. Both of these are equally true. Neither makes the other a contradiction.

Logically, we tend to want to think in steps and not as a living whole. So logically, the Spirit must work for the sinner to see choice. It seems to me the important question isn't whether the Spirit or faith comes first logically, but how does the Spirit-alone work that makes justification by choice of faith-alone equally true. We seem to get into a debate about which comes first instead of how both can be true. Because they are both true. Its all about God...and you have a choice of faith.

Peace to you my brothers