The Strong's Deception

daq said:

That is not true and I just showed you why. Just because you say the Masorete pointing system came from Mosheh doesn't make it true: and just because you then use your error to accuse me of what you and your preferred text have done doesn't make your accusation true either. Even to this day a handwritten Torah is not pointed. My discussion with you is over so that I do not end up reporting you.

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Hospitality involves salt with every offering for a reason. Because it flows from the sweat of the brow while working the eretz. If not for cattle there would be nothing more than bread.

Something to consider. The masora were first published around the same time the printing press was introduced.
Perhaps before then it would of been too much a burden for scribes to apply the them.

daq said:

That is not true and I just showed you why. Just because you say the Masorete pointing system came from Mosheh doesn't make it true: and just because you then use your error to accuse me of what you and your preferred text have done doesn't make your accusation true either. Even to this day a handwritten Torah is not pointed. My discussion with you is over so that I do not end up reporting you.

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Hospitality involves salt with every offering for a reason. Because it flows from the sweat of the brow while working the eretz. If not for cattle there would be nothing more than bread made from thistles and thorns to eat.

Something to consider. The masora were first published around the same time the printing press was introduced.
Perhaps before then it would of been too much a burden for scribes to apply the masora.
Just

HARK! said:

That phrase is in error.



Have at it; and there is no Easter Bunny.

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Would you like to explore the editing process further?

be(t)et lamed resh said:

Hospitality involves salt with every offering for a reason.

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As already explained to you elsewhere: the Master himself expounds the salt of the sacrifices and offerings for me in Mark 9:42-50, where he quotes from both Isa 66:24 and Lev 2:13.

daq said:

Shalom HARK.

Daniel 5 is written in Aramaic, (ארמית), or as the KJV puts it, "Syriack", which is yet another evidence that the more modern square Ashuri script was borrowed from the Aramaic script of the nations, even though the two languages are not the same. In the following passage the text changes from Hebrew to Aramaic right in the midst of the statement, and it does so right on the word Aramaic, (KJV Syriack). The portion highlighted in blue is Aramaic which continues through the end of the seventh chapter.

Daniel 2:4 KJV
4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, [ארמית (Aramaic)] O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation.

From this point in the text, all the way through Daniel 7:28, the text is not Hebrew but Aramaic: then the Hebrew language resumes with Daniel 8:1, and Sefer Daniel is completed in Hebrew. This is something else to be aware of in your endeavor here, for indeed אב in Daniel 5 should have a separate number classification because in this portion of the scripture it is not Hebrew but Aramaic, a different language, (for example see 2Kgs 18:26-28 and Isa 36:11-13), even though the character set is the same.

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I am not surprised the KJV translators called Aramaic “Syriack” for most Christian contact with Aramaic speakers was with Syriac speaking Christians, and the KJV had translators who learned Syriac and who cross-checked the translation against the Peshitta, which was remarkably cosmopolitan for 1604, considering that even today many Western Europeans have never heard of the Syriac Orthodox or Assyrian Church of the East or the Maronite and Chaldean Catholics, and the Mar Thoma Christians of India.

That said Old Testament Aramaic is quite different from Syriac, especially the West Syriac accent or dialect, where two of the seven vowells are dropped, so Mar becomes Mor, Qurbona Qadisha becomes Qurbono Qadisho, Suraya becomes Suroyo, and in the Maronite dialect, before it became extent, it looks like they may have dropped down to four vowells (since the prayers called husoye are written “hosoyo”, and the liturgy is called a “Qorbono”, in some translations at least). This is also why some people incorrectly think that the Aramaic name of our Lord was Isho, which did not appear until the sixth century in the West, rather than something along the lines of “Yeshua”, which is of course Joshua, meaning Hashem Saves, in Hebrew.

be(t)et lamed resh said:

Multiple internet sources of information so called strongs. First would be to compare their information with a print. Which is a process known as editing.

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Actually you could use diff, which is available on any UNIX, Linux or MacOS system (except perhaps Android phones and Chromebooks and embedded devices in the case of Linux) and which can run on Windows to compare text files of the two versions (.txt files, not binaries). Also with some heavy copypasta, you could probably get chatgpt4 to diff it for you.

I am not sure this would be worth the effort however. I think writing a MySQL database using each word or each line of text as a primary key would get the best results.

Also, a number of reasonably good word lookup features are available in Microsoft Word, and in the Vim and Emacs text editors. All of these can be expanded with macros, and Emacs is basically written as Lisp macros atop a lisp interpreter and is thus extremely customizable, but it has a learning curve. Depending on the desired use case, it occurred to me these are off the shelf solutions, and they run on the major operating systems. For vim there is a beginner friendly package called cream which looks and acts much nicer than the default install; if you can handle Notepad on Windows you can handle Cream.

The Liturgist said:

Actually you could use diff, which is available on any UNIX, Linux or MacOS system (except perhaps Android phones and Chromebooks and embedded devices in the case of Linux) and which can run on Windows to compare text files of the two versions (.txt files, not binaries). Also with some heavy copypasta, you could probably get chatgpt4 to diff it for you.

I am not sure this would be worth the effort however. I think writing a MySQL database using each word or each line of text as a primary key would get the best results.

Also, a number of reasonably good word lookup features are available in Microsoft Word, and in the Vim and Emacs text editors. All of these can be expanded with macros, and Emacs is basically written as Lisp macros atop a lisp interpreter and is thus extremely customizable, but it has a learning curve. Depending on the desired use case, it occurred to me these are off the shelf solutions, and they run on the major operating systems. For vim there is a beginner friendly package called cream which looks and acts much nicer than the default install; if you can handle Notepad on Windows you can handle Cream.

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That's a bit much for this old man.
I suggest

For those venturing the hebrew script. You can bold a word then left click to open a glossary.
Theres also an app that is under 300 megabytes

The Liturgist said:

I am not surprised the KJV translators called Aramaic “Syriack” for most Christian contact with Aramaic speakers was with Syriac speaking Christians, and the KJV had translators who learned Syriac and who cross-checked the translation against the Peshitta, which was remarkably cosmopolitan for 1604, considering that even today many Western Europeans have never heard of the Syriac Orthodox or Assyrian Church of the East or the Maronite and Chaldean Catholics, and the Mar Thoma Christians of India.

That said Old Testament Aramaic is quite different from Syriac, especially the West Syriac accent or dialect, where two of the seven vowells are dropped, so Mar becomes Mor, Qurbona Qadisha becomes Qurbono Qadisho, Suraya becomes Suroyo, and in the Maronite dialect, before it became extent, it looks like they may have dropped down to four vowells (since the prayers called husoye are written “hosoyo”, and the liturgy is called a “Qorbono”, in some translations at least). This is also why some people incorrectly think that the Aramaic name of our Lord was Isho, which did not appear until the sixth century in the West, rather than something along the lines of “Yeshua”, which is of course Joshua, meaning Hashem Saves, in Hebrew.

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Vowel distinctions are what at times seperated the semitic dialect, along with the shin sin. Hence a need for the masora consensus.
I thankyou for the meat

Shalom all,

Not quite back from the realm of the over-medicated, but here goes. As far as programming languages go, there are a plethora of platforms, languages and scripts available. My preference would probably lean towards the many xBase options as they are very robust, easily compiled and suitable for standalone PCs. They were fast on slow machines in the '90s, so they should be more than adequate for any Windows based system today.

It is my intention to work through the Semitic scripts first. Hebrew is unique with it's poetry expressed in parallelisms, chiastic structures, acrostics, etc. These characteristics are identifiable across paleo, ancient and square scripts, but are lost in back translations from the Greek, etc.

I also intend to start without the vowel points, as we will sometimes end up with multiple complimentary readings from the same text. There is invaluable treasure buried within plain sight.

So I'm thinking of multiple datasets with multiple indices and a very flexible means of sifting through the various languages, scripts and interpretations to compare against itself and various commentaries founded on everything from Biblical Archaeology to Alfred Edershiem.

Please excuse my ramble. It's time for fuel, meds and rest.

Shalom Shalom

HARK! said:

Needed by whom?

Again, Hebrew is a evolving language of multiple dialects.

Earlier you used the LXX to make an argument concerning phonetics. However, the Hebrew language, along with the Hebrew alephbet, had already gone through some evolution by that time.

Here is the LXX rendering for Yoqob (Jacob) in the LXX.

View attachment 344487

https://ia804504.us.archive.org/31/items/InterlinearGreekEnglishSeptuagintOldTestamentPrint/Interlinear%20Greek-English%20Septuagint%20Old%20Testament%20-%20print.pdf

Notice that it ends in B, not a V as in the Modern Hebrew transliteration.

One might argue that Beta would make the V sound; but this to can be easily dismissed; as Greek too is a evolving language.

View attachment 344488

Beta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The was no Sin in Ancient Hebrew. The Shin made the "Sh" sound. The Samech makes the "S" sound, therefore Sin is redundant, as well as an alteration of קדוש scripture.

If I'm not mistaken, doing so is a sin.

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You've mistaken me for someone else. I've not used the lxx to make argument for phonetics or anything else. In fact I've no interest in greek.

HARK! said:

Needed by whom?

Again, Hebrew is a evolving language of multiple dialects.

Earlier you used the LXX to make an argument concerning phonetics. However, the Hebrew language, along with the Hebrew alephbet, had already gone through some evolution by that time.

Here is the LXX rendering for Yoqob (Jacob) in the LXX.

View attachment 344487

https://ia804504.us.archive.org/31/items/InterlinearGreekEnglishSeptuagintOldTestamentPrint/Interlinear%20Greek-English%20Septuagint%20Old%20Testament%20-%20print.pdf

Notice that it ends in B, not a V as in the Modern Hebrew transliteration.

One might argue that Beta would make the V sound; but this to can be easily dismissed; as Greek too is a evolving language.

View attachment 344488

Beta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The was no Sin in Ancient Hebrew. The Shin made the "Sh" sound. The Samech makes the "S" sound, therefore Sin is redundant, as well as an alteration of קדוש scripture.

If I'm not mistaken, doing so is a sin.

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With a bit of historical study, Sin is the semetic phonecian variant. Which is why the samek is used instead in shoftim.
Psalm 119 - SIN & SHIN (Hebrew Alphabet)).


בִּשְׂפָתַי

Yahudim said:

Hi Laureate,

Brother, I have read and reread your posts in this thread. I researched a few more of your posts on CF too. I have performed many searches with numerous search engines focusing on your phraseology and terminology. It didn't help me in understanding why you would take such a blatantly philosophical approach to what has repeatedly been described as a technical endeavor.

???

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Aloha Yahudim

Believe it or not, I had to confer with an Oxford dictionary to make sure I understood what Philosopical means, and I found only two entries, with two and three synonyms;

1. relating or devoted to the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality and existence.

synonyms: theoretical, analytical

2 having or showing a calm attitude toward disappointments or difficulties

synonyms: calm, composed, cool

Honestly, my siblings will tell you that, from the womb, I fit the description of the 2nd entry, other than my middle name Leslie means Tranquility, all I can say is, that is how I was hardwired.

However via empathy and a little help from Heaven I also (now) know what it is like to be disturbed by every little thing.

The first entry pretty much has me pegged as well, I skipped the second grade due to my early comprehension skills, but was placed back into the second grade, because I couldn’t keep up, I knew at a very early age that there is an explanation for everything that occurs, and it was not until my comprehension skills kicked in that I was able to make attempts to figure out puzzling matters, up unto that moment I wore a wrinkled forehead above squinting eyes, (figuratively scratching my head) trying to understand why people said and did the peculiar things which they said and did.

I was also very shy, so shy my family actually wondered if there was something wrong with me, because I rarely ever opened my mouth to speak, but that was only because I didn’t want to look stupid, as many others did when they opened their mouth to speak about things they knew little to nothing about;

I carried my shyness into military where unbeknownst to me I had established a reputation for only speaking when I was addressed, or if I felt I had some insight (usually in the form of an explanation) to offer concerning an on going conversation amongst peers.

One day I was standing at a fork in the walk way between the PX (military convenient store) and the barracks, considering whether or not I should go to the store before I hit the barracks, at which time I saw two new recruits coming from the PX, couldn’t be more than 30-40 feet away, and I couldn’t help but notice the one recruit elbow his friend and mouth with his lips, Hey there’s Ellis, Watch this!

Of course I knew something was up, so I played dumb to see what he had up his sleeve, when they reached speaking distance the recruit said, Hey Ellis…., for the life of me I cannot remember what he asked, all I can remember is that there was nothing genuine about his inquiry, so I told him, I did not know;

He wanted to show his friend my willingness to speak when there was something to explain, he actually got a kick out of it, I admit, I was a peculiar sort then as I am now to this day.

Prior to my looking up the word Philosophical, I considered what I had always assumed the word meant, which I gleaned from the context, ‘What is your Philosophy?’, which basically means ‘What is your Take on the Matter (at hand)’, as in, What do you Believe to be the Truth (of a given matter at hand.

Come! (says the Scripture), let us Reason with One Another, and Let us Study so that we may be well informed when we do Reason with One Another, and if Yeshuah speaks to us concerning Natural things here on Earth and we have difficulties following him, then how can he expect us to follow him when he speaks of Spiritual things in Heaven?

As a priority we should all Seek the knowledge of the Kingdom, as Einstein, Newton and many other Believers who Sought the Kingdom, for many die due to ignorance, notwithstanding knowledge will be increased, and with it a diminishing of untimely deaths;

But now permit me to ask you Yahudim, is not יהוה (That which is, That which was and That which shall come to be) הוהי Existence itself? And ישי Shall Continue to Be? Knowing that There is Nothing nor Anyone else Existing besides him!

And if so, then why are so many so called Believers Not more Philosophical? Let me guess, many have given Philosophy a bad wrap, to which many have bought into?!?

Personally I did not see myself as being Philosophical, I always saw myself as being Sincere and as one who took matters a little more seriously than others, with a No Nonsense approach when it came to what I perceived to be important things.

You do know that the word תורת also renders Theoretical and Science?!?

be(t)et lamed resh said:

"Niqqud were from hellenized culture"? That's a baseless assertion, considering how brief the war period was. Essentially the greek rulers attempted to subdue and assimilate yhdh(yisrael proper) bc. And just as stubborn as they are yhdh resisted. Jews being multi linguistic does not conflate or equate to the Hebrew scriptures being altered. If that were the case then all is null and void. Including 2 Timothy 3:16-17
The hebrew language and script have been the same since sinai according to jewish tradition, niqqud included.
So How do you know there were no spaces in hebrew torah script or the prophets, and writing's?

The greeks had their own writting script independent of hebrew. To which there are many archeological finds as proof. So theres no need to compare cultures and languages with witchcraft.

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Aloha be(t)et lamed resh

We have two-three scriptural reasons to honor the Niqqud, esp., that of the Massoretes, unfortunately we cannot quite honor the Niqqud of the Massoretes, which was/is far more diverse than the testimony and application of only One Massorete, which is what we find today in the so called (yet somewhat misleading) Masoretic text;

Collectively the Masorettes were a rare treasure trove of those who retained undisputed viable knowledge of the ancient written Hebrew, and were the go to source in their dispensation when it came to potential application and meaning, which (due to the Assyrian/Babylonian Captivity and assimilation into foreign cultures) had become marginalized and had drawn close to the brink of extinction;

In Yeshayahu 9 we discover that the Masorah will be placed upon the Shoulder [the place where Prophecy is borne] of the Child/Son that is given to us, this passage/prophecy alone authorizes the (actual) Masoretic punctuation as an Amendment to the Torah which at the time had no punctuation in the text (which included word spacing), for previously it was the Oral Reading of the Torah that alone preserved the sacred knowledge of an appropriate Reading;

The people were discontent with the various alternate yet viable Readings of the Masorete, and managed to eliminate the input of all but two Masorete (I do not recall their names at the moment), then they eventually chose to run with the testimony and application of the one Masorete, and that is what made it’s way down through unto the Celtic translations of Wycliffe, Tyndall, the KJV and those who follow suite with their overall Reading of the sacred texts;

The fixed Niqqud basically preserves (what many agreed upon at the time to be) the proper Oral Reading of the texts, though not everyone was entirely in agreement, notwithstanding the fixed punctuation preserved a great portion of the historical account of Ishrael, seeing how the Torah can be Read with other viable and intelligent information being Punctuated/Read/Extracted from it, which could easily overshadow the entire historical account of Ishrael;

That is how important the Oral Law was, and how important the Masoretic punctuation has become, without it, much of the historical account which we have today would literally be Lost In Translation, and ironically we still have many things that are yet Lost due to a Fixed Punctuation as well;

Yeshuah defends the Niqqud when he says, not one Yowd [Hand/Manual] nor one Tittle [Diacritic Mark] will be made obsolete until everything has been fulfilled, yet he cautions us to have our Righteousness to exceed the Righteousness of the Scribes [which Punctuate] and the Pharisee [which Read].

Just as the Oral Law was used to teach the early Ishrael community how to Read the Written, the Masoretic Punctuation also teaches us today how meanings can be variously applied and ascribed.

The prophecy of Yeshayahu concerning Immanuel/Manuel is in chapter 8, where the prophet is instructed with a Strong Hand/Manual, and tells us to Bind the Torah and Seal the Testimony of Immanuel’s Disciples, and whosoever does not Speak according to the Torah and the Testimony of his Disciples it is because there is no Light in them, which mind you establishes what our doctrine is, then on to chapter 9 and the Masorah being upon his Shoulder;

Both chapters relate a string of related things that happen to be Associated with one another, the Torah [OT] & NT, a Strong Manual and the Masorah, this is no accident nor a coincidence, and neither am I mistaken to take stock in what is evidently done for a Divine reason and with a Deliberate intent.

Have you ever seen the t.v show My fat Greek wedding? Have you ever lived in a community where there is a notable presence of Portuguese people? If your answer to this question is yes, then you know that they nationality wise are one in the same people, aka the children of Aphrîyem Yowseph’s second born, yet Ishrael’s Firstborn.

Cause & Effect, Yeshuah strictly instructed his Disciples to go unto none other than the Lost Sheep of The House of Ishrael, in Ezekiel 37 Aphrîyem and his affiliates [the northern kingdom, tribes and converts) are reckoned as The House of Ishrael, and Yehudah and his affiliates [the southern kingdom] are reckoned as The Children of Ishrael, ergo the New Testament was propagated in the Latin Greek tongue, and the northern tribes became referred to as the Lost Tribes of Ishrael.

@Laureate , I was recently watching the third podcast in the series, 'The Christian Roots of the Jewish Faith' again. It is entitled, "The Aramaic "Onkelos" is not a Literal translation! | Part 3 | Case for Messiah" <= Click on this link and watch the first 7 minutes. Then tell me what the Masorets thought of their own translation of Torah.