How should I respond about a non-Christian person death ?

eleos1954 said:

Hell is described as being in the grave ... yes .... when one dies ... the bible describes death as a dormant sleep (even Jesus), this is because one day all will be resurrected. There are 2 deaths .... earthly death (temporal until resurrection) ... second death (for all the unsaved) is for eternity.

There is no other "holding place" ... there is no burning place.

Death is non existence ... we are not immortal in anyway ... we will receive immortality when Jesus returns.

Here are a few verses about it .... there are many many more


John 5:28-29 ESV

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


Daniel 12:2 ESV / 108 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


1 Thessalonians 4

The Coming of the Lord

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Click to expand...

I had hoped for better on this forum.

Why cant we discuss verses that question a members position - What is there to loose?

Is it not better to process the matters that touch the topic than bang away on ones present conviction ?

James says the wisdom from above is reasonable i.e. able to be discussed.

Carl Emerson said:

How then do you account for the three verses that do not equate Hell with the grave but rather a place of burning ?

Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be answerable to the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fiery hell.

Click to expand...

To the wicked, the threatened fire is unquenchable, because it will not be quenched, or caused to cease, till it has entirely devoured them.

Psalm 37:20: “But the wicked shall perish (not burn forever), and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” Malachi 4:3: “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the souls of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

On the simple logical side .... Is it OK for us (mankind) to torture people? Of course not, most of us instinctively know that.

If the wicked are punished forever, then evil will never be eradicated. Also, all human life derives from God (Deuteronomy 32:39, Psalm 36:9), who has “no pleasure in the death of the wicked” (Ezekiel 33:11, NKJV). Why then would He continue to grant life to the wicked to suffer in endless torment?

We are made in the image of God ... if it's ok for God to torture then it would be ok for us to torture. Torture is not at all in the character or mind of God ... nor should it be in us.

The entire premise of the Bible is about life or death .... not torture .... torture in some eternal burning place would still be life ... a torturous life but non the less life.

The eternal fire usage is because it comes from the eternal God ... comes out of eternity ... not that it burns for eternity. It will consume until everything is turned into ashes (nothing left to burn)

Also, this eternal burning place is very often brought up by people who are not believers ..

ie. If God is Love ... then how can He torture people for eternity? Even non believers know this is not acceptable.

This everlasting torture idea (twisting of scripture) is right out of satan's playbook to keep people from coming to the Lord.

Psalm 92
"Though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed"
9For surely Your enemies, O LORD,
surely Your enemies will perish;
all evildoers will be scattered.

Most popular verse in the bible

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Perish (die,death) .... not torture in a everlasting burning place.

suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
"a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"

Similar:
die
lose one's life
be killed
fall
expire
meet one's death
be lost
lay down one's life
breathe one's last
draw one's last breath
pass away
go the way of all flesh
give up the ghost
go to one's last resting place
cross the great divide
bite the dust .... there are more
suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Life is life (exist) .... death is death (non existence) .... no reason to be confused about it ... it's simple ... we see it every day.

For the saved the first death (non existence) is temporary and will receive eternal life ... for the lost the 2nd death (non existence) is for death for eternity and that death will be from fire from the Lord until they are consumed and turned into ashes.

We are all immortal (subject to death) ... we do not receive immortality until the Lord returns ... we receive that at the 1st resurrection not before .... and we believe the promise of that and take great comfort in it.

QuestionQuest74 said:

But if we know there lifestyle are we being ashamed of the gospel not telling them the truth ?

Click to expand...

But we can never know what happens in a person's final minutes before death.
It could be that he would minister to them one last time. It could be that they never really heard the Gospel before.

eleos1954 said:

To the wicked, the threatened fire is unquenchable, because it will not be quenched, or caused to cease, till it has entirely devoured them.

Psalm 37:20: “But the wicked shall perish (not burn forever), and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” Malachi 4:3: “And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the souls of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

On the simple logical side .... Is it OK for us (mankind) to torture people? Of course not, most of us instinctively know that.

If the wicked are punished forever, then evil will never be eradicated. Also, all human life derives from God (Deuteronomy 32:39, Psalm 36:9), who has “no pleasure in the death of the wicked” (Ezekiel 33:11, NKJV). Why then would He continue to grant life to the wicked to suffer in endless torment?

We are made in the image of God ... if it's ok for God to torture then it would be ok for us to torture. Torture is not at all in the character or mind of God ... nor should it be in us.

The entire premise of the Bible is about life or death .... not torture .... torture in some eternal burning place would still be life ... a torturous life but non the less life.

The eternal fire usage is because it comes from the eternal God ... comes out of eternity ... not that it burns for eternity. It will consume until everything is turned into ashes (nothing left to burn)

Also, this eternal burning place is very often brought up by people who are not believers ..

ie. If God is Love ... then how can He torture people for eternity? Even non believers know this is not acceptable.

This everlasting torture idea (twisting of scripture) is right out of satan's playbook to keep people from coming to the Lord.

Psalm 92
"Though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed"
9For surely Your enemies, O LORD,
surely Your enemies will perish;
all evildoers will be scattered.

Most popular verse in the bible

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Perish (die,death) .... not torture in a everlasting burning place.

suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
"a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"

Similar:
die
lose one's life
be killed
fall
expire
meet one's death
be lost
lay down one's life
breathe one's last
draw one's last breath
pass away
go the way of all flesh
give up the ghost
go to one's last resting place
cross the great divide
bite the dust .... there are more
suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Life is life (exist) .... death is death (non existence) .... no reason to be confused about it ... it's simple ... we see it every day.

For the saved the first death (non existence) is temporary and will receive eternal life ... for the lost the 2nd death (non existence) is for death for eternity and that death will be from fire from the Lord until they are consumed and turned into ashes.

We are all immortal (subject to death) ... we do not receive immortality until the Lord returns ... we receive that at the 1st resurrection not before .... and we believe the promise of that and take great comfort in it.

Click to expand...

This all sounds fine but the matter I raised for your comment was that Scripture does not indicate that the grave is hell, but is place of burning somewhere else.

You said in post #4 "hell is the grave ... not some burning place... "

But Scripture says Hell is a burning place in the Three verses I quoted.

Carl Emerson said:

This all sounds fine but the matter I raised for your comment was that Scripture does not indicate that the grave is hell, but is place of burning somewhere else.

You said in post #4 "hell is the grave ... not some burning place... "

But Scripture says Hell is a burning place in the Three verses I quoted.

Click to expand...

3 verses .... look at the whole (entire bible) it must be harmonized as a whole. It describes hell as the grave and calls it a sleep .... some verses state it as resting in the grave why? Because all will be resurrected one day.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
Human bodies return to the dust, or elements, from which they were created and do not immediately go to heaven or a burning tomentous hell. Humans are in a condition of rest and in a dormant state (non thinking) "asleep" until a future resurrection. If there were people’s spirits floating around in heaven or being tortured in hell, then these spirits would be sentient (able to feel) and aware, with cognitive abilities. The scripture in Ecclesiastes explains that in the grave there is no work, knowledge, or wisdom.

Acts 2:25-31
This scripture clearly states that Christ was in hell or the grave and that Christ’s soul was not left in the grave. And also, David’s sepulcher and burial place were still in place at the time of Peter’s preaching of this testimony. David has not been resurrected to heaven or any other place and is still resting in the grave; even today. Peter was quoting Psalms 16:8-10.

Per Jesus ... Lazarus is sleeping .... Lazarus is dead ... Jesus himself equates death with sleep not a torturing place ... or do you think he was just joking around, or else worse ... lying?

Here's another one ....

Matthew 9:24 (per Jesus)

23When Jesus entered the house of the synagogue leader, He saw the flute players and the noisy crowd. 24“Go away,” He told them. “ The girl is not dead, but asleep.” And they laughed at Him.

Are you and many others laughing as well?

Here are a few more ....

- The girl who died and was raised back to life (Matthew 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke. 8:52)
– Lazarus (John 11:11-14)
– Some godly people who died in Old Testament times (Matthew 27:52) (raised from the grave/tombs)
– Stephen (Acts 7:60)
– David (Acts 13:36)
– Some of those who abuse the Lord’s Supper (1 Corinthians 11:30)
– Christians (1 Corinthians 15:6, 18; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15)
– People who died in Old Testament times (1 Corinthians 15:20)
– Jewish ancestors (2 Peter 3:4)

John 5
27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.…

Please everyone take the time to throughly study it out ... OT and NT .... (Jesus taught from the OT)

eleos1954 said:

3 verses .... look at the whole (entire bible) it must be harmonized as a whole. It describes hell as the grave and calls it a sleep .... some verses state it as resting in the grave why? Because all will be resurrected one day.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
Human bodies return to the dust, or elements, from which they were created and do not immediately go to heaven or a burning tomentous hell. Humans are in a condition of rest and in a dormant state (non thinking) "asleep" until a future resurrection. If there were people’s spirits floating around in heaven or being tortured in hell, then these spirits would be sentient (able to feel) and aware, with cognitive abilities. The scripture in Ecclesiastes explains that in the grave there is no work, knowledge, or wisdom.

Acts 2:25-31
This scripture clearly states that Christ was in hell or the grave and that Christ’s soul was not left in the grave. And also, David’s sepulcher and burial place were still in place at the time of Peter’s preaching of this testimony. David has not been resurrected to heaven or any other place and is still resting in the grave; even today. Peter was quoting Psalms 16:8-10.

Per Jesus ... Lazarus is sleeping .... Lazarus is dead ... Jesus himself equates death with sleep not a torturing place ... or do you think he was just joking around, or else worse ... lying?

Here's another one ....

Matthew 9:24 (per Jesus)

23When Jesus entered the house of the synagogue leader, He saw the flute players and the noisy crowd. 24“Go away,” He told them. “ The girl is not dead, but asleep.” And they laughed at Him.

Are you and many others laughing as well?

Here are a few more ....

- The girl who died and was raised back to life (Matthew 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke. 8:52)
– Lazarus (John 11:11-14)
– Some godly people who died in Old Testament times (Matthew 27:52) (raised from the grave/tombs)
– Stephen (Acts 7:60)
– David (Acts 13:36)
– Some of those who abuse the Lord’s Supper (1 Corinthians 11:30)
– Christians (1 Corinthians 15:6, 18; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15)
– People who died in Old Testament times (1 Corinthians 15:20)
– Jewish ancestors (2 Peter 3:4)

John 5
27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.…

Please everyone take the time to throughly study it out ... OT and NT .... (Jesus taught from the OT)

Click to expand...

To harmonise the bible you should account for all verses and not a select few.

Why you refuse to accept that your claim that hell is the grave doesn't stack up with the three verses I quoted _ who knows.

I would have thought it wise to go back to the author and ask what He meant rather than digging a deeper hole to lie in.

eleos1954 said:

3 verses .... look at the whole (entire bible) it must be harmonized as a whole. It describes hell as the grave and calls it a sleep .... some verses state it as resting in the grave why? Because all will be resurrected one day.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
Human bodies return to the dust, or elements, from which they were created and do not immediately go to heaven or a burning tomentous hell. Humans are in a condition of rest and in a dormant state (non thinking) "asleep" until a future resurrection. If there were people’s spirits floating around in heaven or being tortured in hell, then these spirits would be sentient (able to feel) and aware, with cognitive abilities. The scripture in Ecclesiastes explains that in the grave there is no work, knowledge, or wisdom.

Acts 2:25-31
This scripture clearly states that Christ was in hell or the grave and that Christ’s soul was not left in the grave. And also, David’s sepulcher and burial place were still in place at the time of Peter’s preaching of this testimony. David has not been resurrected to heaven or any other place and is still resting in the grave; even today. Peter was quoting Psalms 16:8-10.

Per Jesus ... Lazarus is sleeping .... Lazarus is dead ... Jesus himself equates death with sleep not a torturing place ... or do you think he was just joking around, or else worse ... lying?

Here's another one ....

Matthew 9:24 (per Jesus)

23When Jesus entered the house of the synagogue leader, He saw the flute players and the noisy crowd. 24“Go away,” He told them. “ The girl is not dead, but asleep.” And they laughed at Him.

Are you and many others laughing as well?

Here are a few more ....

- The girl who died and was raised back to life (Matthew 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke. 8:52)
– Lazarus (John 11:11-14)
– Some godly people who died in Old Testament times (Matthew 27:52) (raised from the grave/tombs)
– Stephen (Acts 7:60)
– David (Acts 13:36)
– Some of those who abuse the Lord’s Supper (1 Corinthians 11:30)
– Christians (1 Corinthians 15:6, 18; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15)
– People who died in Old Testament times (1 Corinthians 15:20)
– Jewish ancestors (2 Peter 3:4)

John 5
27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.…

Please everyone take the time to throughly study it out ... OT and NT .... (Jesus taught from the OT)

Click to expand...

All I know is the following, which is pertinent to the OP:

Revelation 16:7 NIV

"And I heard the altar respond:
“Yes, Lord God Almighty,
true and just are your judgments.”

Whatever the fate of the lost, eternal torment or destruction, will be just because HE is just. He has amply demonstrated His justice, along with infinite mercy and grace, throughout all of human history.

Again, I dare not remake God Almighty in MY image so I can be personally comfortable with the eternal fate of the lost.

Job 40:8 NIV

"Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?"

Carl Emerson said:

To harmonise the bible you should account for all verses and not a select few.

Why you refuse to accept that your claim that hell is the grave doesn't stack up with the three verses I quoted _ who knows.

I would have thought it wise to go back to the author and ask what He meant rather than digging a deeper hole to lie in.

Click to expand...

There are a lot of verses that when we just look at them can on the surface appear to mean one thing .... and then after studying the whole of scripture more light is shed on the matter. So one can look at 3 verses or one can look at the whole of scripture and see 50-60 or more verses that give weight to hell is the grave.


Mark 9:43

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.

Do you think it was to be understood that we are to literally cut of our hands?

Matthew 5:22

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be answerable to the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew also says this (is he contradicting himself?)

Matthew 10:28

New International Version
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 18:9

Revelation 20:7-9

New Life Version​

Satan Is Destroyed Forever​

7 When the 1,000 years are finished, Satan will be free to leave his prison. 8 He will go out and fool the nations who are over all the world. They are Gog and Magog. He will gather them all together for war. There will be as many as the sand along the sea-shore. 9 They will spread out over the earth and all around the place where God’s people are and around the city that is loved. Fire will come down from God out of heaven and destroy them.

1 Corinthians 15:25
26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

so are people in the supposed burning place .... dead or alive? If being tortured for eternity then they are alive and death is not destroyed and neither is satan.

Friend, as long as you perceive verses don't reflect the same meaning - step back in humility in submission to His Wisdom.

What we shouldn't do is Bang on about a theory that only some verses seem to support.

Especially when verses so clearly state the opposite like these.

The Sheep and the Goats Matthew 25

31When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Joseph G said:

All I know is the following, which is pertinent to the OP:

Revelation 16:7 NIV

"And I heard the altar respond:
“Yes, Lord God Almighty,
true and just are your judgments.”

Whatever the fate of the lost, eternal torment or destruction, will be just because HE is just. He has amply demonstrated His justice, along with infinite mercy and grace, throughout all of human history.

Again, I dare not remake God Almighty in MY image so I can be personally comfortable with the eternal fate of the lost.

Job 40:8 NIV

"Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?"

Click to expand...

Whatever the fate of the lost, eternal torment or destruction, will be just because HE is just. He has amply demonstrated His justice, along with infinite mercy and grace, throughout all of human history.

Click to expand...

I agree with this (He is just - righteous judgement) ... however .... teaching eternal torment turns people away from God ... and also instills fear in some of the minds of some believers ... especially those with OCD ... many people suffer great mental anguish thinking of their loved ones possibly being "tortured" in some burning place or worrying that they themselves might suffer the "burning forever" fate.

Fire consumes until there is nothing left to consume ... God is not into torture (eternal suffering) ... neither are we. We can understand war and that war needs to come to a final end. War started in heaven and then the "battlefield" moved to earth .... God will totally end this war and it's consequences (suffering and death) one day and that will be for eternity (it won't be continued in some eternal burning place). Until He returns we are on the "battlefield" every day.

Some people are unnecessarily and severely suffering mentally over this burn in hell teaching. God IS NOT a torturing monster.

Job 40:8 as you noted ... also note

Job 40:8-13

13Bury them together in the dust;
imprison them in the grave. (in the grave ... not a burning place)

Basic summary of Chapter 4 - A lesson of Humility

God was helping Job understand that as a mere creature he was in no position to question the wisdom of God, even in times of great personal suffering. The Lord was impressing upon him how little Job knew compared to the infinite and perfect knowledge of God.

eleos1954 said:

I agree with this (He is just - righteous judgement) ... however .... teaching eternal torment turns people away from God ... and also instills fear in some of the minds of some believers ... especially those with OCD ... many people suffer great mental anguish thinking of their loved ones possibly being "tortured" in some burning place or worrying that they themselves might suffer the "burning forever" fate.

Fire consumes until there is nothing left to consume ... God is not into torture (eternal suffering) ... neither are we. We can understand war and that war needs to come to a final end. War started in heaven and then the "battlefield" moved to earth .... God will totally end this war and it's consequences (suffering and death) one day and that will be for eternity (it won't be continued in some eternal burning place). Until He returns we are on the "battlefield" every day.

Some people are unnecessarily and severely suffering mentally over this burn in hell teaching. God IS NOT a torturing monster.

Job 40:8 as you noted ... also note

Job 40:8-13

13Bury them together in the dust;
imprison them in the grave. (in the grave ... not a burning place)

Basic summary of Chapter 4 - A lesson of Humility

God was helping Job understand that as a mere creature he was in no position to question the wisdom of God, even in times of great personal suffering. The Lord was impressing upon him how little Job knew compared to the infinite and perfect knowledge of God.

Click to expand...

"Fire consumes until there is nothing left to consume"

You've already been given Scripture which clearly states that the fire is "unquenchable" and that "... the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever".

Jesus is the Great Physician. A good physician tells the patient the truth as to what is really ailing him (sin) and the consequences if left untreated (eternal separation from God). It is GOOD and LOVING to tell the patient the truth.

Fortunately for us the Great Physician offers Himself as the cure. When Jesus says He came to bear "Good News" - He meant the truth - the WHOLE truth - the diagnosis AND the cure.

Whether you come to deal with what is plain to understand in Holy Scripture is ultimately up to you.

This is my prayer for all of us irregardless - to have peace with God as He is:

Romans 5:1-2 NIV

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God."

Joseph G said:

"Fire consumes until there is nothing left to consume"

You've already been given Scripture which clearly states that the fire is "unquenchable" and that "... the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever".

Jesus is the Great Physician. A good physician tells the patient the truth as to what is really ailing him (sin) and the consequences if left untreated (eternal separation from God). It is GOOD and LOVING to tell the patient the truth.

Fortunately for us the Great Physician offers Himself as the cure. When Jesus says He came to bear "Good News" - He meant the truth - the WHOLE truth - the diagnosis AND the cure.

Whether you come to deal with what is plain to understand in Holy Scripture is ultimately up to you.

This is my prayer for all of us irregardless - to have peace with God as He is:

Romans 5:1-2 NIV

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God."

Click to expand...

The word “eternal” (Heb. ’olam; Greek aion, aionios) carries different meanings, depending on the immediate context. For example, when associated with God (Deuteronomy 33:27, ”everlasting”), the word expresses His eternity.

When related to human beings (Exodus 21:6, “forever”), the word is limited by their life span.

When qualifying fire (Matthew 18:8, Matthew 25:41, “everlasting”), it implies that the fire will not go out until it fully consumes what is being burned. This means that the “eternal fire” will be eternal in the sense that it will consume the wicked completely and irreversibly, leaving them “neither root nor branch” (Malachi 4:1, NKJV).

Whole of scripture and context therein my friend ....

Matthew 10:28 ESV​

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy(not torture) both soul and body in hell.

God is love. It is impossible for eternal torture to be included in love (even for the wicked) ... it's mutually exclusive.

I join you in your prayer ... amen.

Well... if the purpose of this thread was to push a particular theology - you have done really well.

QuestionQuest74 said:

But if we know there lifestyle are we being ashamed of the gospel not telling them the truth ?

Click to expand...

Hello! Having been to the funeral of several vociferous atheists, where the member of the clergy had the deceased person in heaven, I believe there is a danger in this. I knew someone almost insanely hostile to Christianity and the clergy had them doing all sorts of things in a heaven of their own imagination. The persons attending the funeral looks at their acquaintance's life of animus towards God and are told that this person has gone to heaven, surely then such a false blurry message will have some deceptive impact on the listeners.

Some members have already said do not judge or we cannot judge someone's heart. Perhaps there is truth in this, but it can give the impression of dodging the question. We cannot judge someone's heart but can look at someone's words and actions. It might not be cheering to tell someone we believe their loved one has not gone to heaven. There seem to be two extremes to be avoided here, but blurring the edges is one of them. The bible is clear on salvation:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son (John 3:18).

Perhaps the key is how we give the answer to this question, with gentleness and respect:

1 Peter 2: 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

God Bless You

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QuestionQuest74 said:

If you know the person lived against God and a non-christian religious belief and someone asks you is this person going to heaven or hell how to respond ?

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God will be his judge, not me. Christians have no authority the determine destination of anyone.

1 Cor,, 5:12 What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside.

eleos1954 said:

Don't make God out to be a torturing monster of some kind because He isn't.

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Daniel 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
The definition of contempt is "a strong feeling of disliking and having no respect for someone or something". So, wherever they are, it will be an absolutely terrible place that they will hate, and it is for eternity.
Now, instead of calling God a torturing monster, why not find out why He gives out these punishments?

I believe it is because, the higher the authority I sin against, the more severe the punishment will be.
An analogy:
While I was in Kindy, I hit another boy. The teacher comes out and says, “Nathan, come with me you have a detention” Then while walking, I slap the teacher. Now, all of a sudden, I'm in the principal's office. Next, all of a sudden, I slap the principal. Now I'm just digging my hole really deep. The penalty starts to increase from slapping my classmate in the sandbox to slapping the teacher to slapping the principal. So, the principal calls in the police. Angry that they were called I took a swing at the police and hit him in the face. Now I am really in a lot of trouble. Now I'm hauled down to the police department and there's the chief of police and there. I am in so deep now that I might as well continue. So, I hit the police chief. Now I am really, getting into big trouble and the penalty is increasing. So now I am hauled into court, and I walk up to the judge, and I pop one to the judge. I have now pushed it so far that I am now on my way to prison. Why? What's the difference between me hitting another boy and me hitting the teacher, me hitting the principal and me hitting the police officer, me hitting the chief of police and me hitting the judge? It's simply an issue of authority. The teacher has more authority than my buddy in the sandbox the principal has more authority than the teacher the police have more authority than the principal and the chief of police has more authority than the police officer and the judge has more authority than the chief of police.

Now, we have the attitude of slapping the eternal God in the face who created the heavens and the earth. This is not a wise move. The penalty of hell is so big because of God's authority, and who God is. There are different penalties for defying and rebelling against authority. So, I don’t go to jail because I slap my playmate in the sandbox. But, for slapping the judge I will go to jail.
The higher the authority I sin against, the more severe the punishment.