China says it's not the right time for peace talks

Laodicean60 said:

"China has done a lot of constructive work and we will continue to play a positive role," he added.

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Good one. Never heard such a confident lie before. Lucky I live in a country where China is claiming our waters by drawing lines on maps. So it's quite easy to spot them when they speak.

When they say dialogue all they are saying is you stop retaliating but not me. Hence we have gems such as:

1. China will never militarized the south china sea then proceeds to build military bases on the islands.
2. China respects the sovereignty of other nations then proceeds to fly military jets into their air spaces.
3. China has no concentration camps for the Uyghurs then proceeds to rename the camps to re-education camps.
4. China respects the one country two systems policy with HK then proceeds to destroy the system.

Laodicean60 said:

I hear you, and why so much emphasis on China's leadership? China will cooperate with Russia because of energy. The US is the only one that can end the bloodshed in Ukraine. If we wait too long and Russia gains more territory it'll probably be less likely they'll stop.

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Well the reason is simple, I don't fancy the Chinese leadership. I see their hypocrisy. They give my ethnicity a bad rep worldwide. Also I absolutely hate autocracy.

As much as I want the Russians to bugger off from Ukraine, I doubt the US has the political will or clout to do it. If it were the 90s then yes. When America is still respected by her allies and begrudgingly tolerated by her foes. Now realistically speaking US no longer can exercise her influence as she once did. You guys let rivals grow too strong to balance out your influences.

Laodicean60 said:

I can't blame them one bit because Ukraine is losing territory. They are also aiding Russia in the fight. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
"The top Chinese diplomat delivered his response before the Munich Security Conference on Saturday. "There are not ripe conditions in place for parties to go back to the negotiating table," he announced in an on-stage interview.

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Does this imply that China thinks that because Russia is "winning" currently, that they should stop for now? (Earlier China seem to be calling for truce/peace when Ukraine seem to be "winning".)

Laodicean60 said:

"China has done a lot of constructive work and we will continue to play a positive role," he added. Noticeably, China has never outright condemned the war or Russia's invasion. Instead, it has issued a number of statements highlighting the role of NATO's expansions in leading up to the crisis."

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Soft support/non-condemnation + repeats of Russia's "excuses" propaganda generated for external consumption. (Internally, Russian propagandists talk repeatedly about the "non-existence" of Ukraine, of Ukraine as a "Nazi" state", and of Ukrainians as "confused Russians" [or worse].)

It would seem that China remains a soft ally of Russia in this war of conquest and annihilation.

Laodicean60 said:

I agree. Stop the bloodshed on both sides. I for one in 2014 thought we had no business interfering in Ukraine because we had our hands full in the Middle East.

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Wait. What interference in Ukraine did you think the US was engaged in 2014 did you object to while it was happening?

Laodicean60 said:

We complain of Russian interference but the West also interferes to spread our democracy. Then you have to question our support for far-right neo-Nazis. besides Ukraine, Saddam and Gadaffi are a couple that didn't end well.

America's Ukraine Hypocrisy

There is an abundance of outrage in the United States about Russia’s alleged meddling in the 2016 presidential election. Multiple investigations are taking place, and Moscow’s conduct was a major justification for the sanctions legislation that Congress just passed. Some furious political...

nationalinterest.org

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I'm not sure how politicians visiting with "opposition" leaders counts as interference. That would be equivalent to complaining about foreign politicians visiting with Republican leadership during Biden's presidency. Or visiting with Democratic leadership during Trump's. The phone call between Nuland and Pyatt is a discussion between two American diplomats about the best outcomes for the US in Ukraine. That's absolutely something that would be discussed during any transition of power or upheaval in leadership - it does not demonstrate any form of actual influence or interference.

Laodicean60 said:

How William Hague Deceived the House of Commons on Ukraine

In a statement on 4 March 2014, Foreign Minister William Hague deceived the House of Commons about the legitimacy of the new regime in Ukraine... He led the House to believe that the Ukrainian parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, had removed President Yanukovich from power on 22 February in...

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

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Ultimately, the legality of Yanukovytch's removal can only be determined by Ukraine, as it is a matter of Ukrainian law. They seem to have accepted it. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it makes no sense to oppose a successful popular revolution that benefits us.

Laodicean60 said:

We complain of Russian interference but the West also interferes to spread our democracy.

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You do know that we openly work to spread democracy throughout the world right? It's a good thing.

I've now read the articles you listed below, and I do see that there was talk about "US interference" contemporaneously. (I was at a nadir of my attention to the news generally at that time, so I could have easily missed it.) I had also forgotten that the Russian release of a conversation of US State Department officials occurred during the crisis. That call is ofted called US interference, but it only involves US officials. They discuss the ongoing government crisis and the various leaders and factions in the opposition while the Putin-aligned president's government seems to be teetering on the edge. Do they have opposition leaders they prefer to others? Sure. Do they have ideas about what the opposition could do? Sure. The US was very open about favoring the opposition. This isn't some sort of grand covert conspiracy. (It was also the overall preference of the Ukrainian people as the whole thing began when the President of Ukraine rejected the people's preference to be closer to the EU and instead pushed closer ties with Russia.)

Laodicean60 said:

Then you have to question our support for far-right neo-Nazis. besides Ukraine, Saddam and Gadaffi are a couple that didn't end well.

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I don't think the opposition to Saddam and Gadaffi were "neo-Nazis". This is literally something I've never heard previously about their opposition or any factions in Iraq or Libya.

Laodicean60 said:

America's Ukraine Hypocrisy

There is an abundance of outrage in the United States about Russia’s alleged meddling in the 2016 presidential election. Multiple investigations are taking place, and Moscow’s conduct was a major justification for the sanctions legislation that Congress just passed. Some furious political...

nationalinterest.org

How William Hague Deceived the House of Commons on Ukraine

In a statement on 4 March 2014, Foreign Minister William Hague deceived the House of Commons about the legitimacy of the new regime in Ukraine... He led the House to believe that the Ukrainian parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, had removed President Yanukovich from power on 22 February in...

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

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You did manage to find a pincer of articles from left and right. Congrats! A search on both authors find them *both* to be "anti-Western imperialist" writers. One from a Left-Labor-UK prospective the other from a Right-Libertarian-US perspective. Both are willing to look away at the imperialism, atrocities, and violations of the nations and actors they see as opposed to US hegemony. (Seen this pattern *sooooo* many times before.)

As for their claims that the removal of Yanakovich was illegitimate or orchestrated. Nonsense. The opposition leaders wanted to do that themselves and didn't need any "push" from the US. The people approved of their actions which legitimates them even if (and I don't know these criticisms are even technically valid) the opposition cut a few corners to do it.

Today is a national day of remembrance in Ukraine for those killed by the pro-Putin former government 10 years ago in the Maidan protests and also 10 years to the day of the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Let's keep that in mind too.

Laodicean60 said:

Even in 2014, I couldn't understand our involvement with Ukraine. Because of mixed demographics in East and West. Maybe this has to do with Ukraine struggling to get recruits. Yanukovych had more support from east and southern Ukraine. Yanukovych fled because he saw the writing on the wall from. When the Nuland call hit the news it sure seemed like meddling maybe on Fox. The USA turned a blind eye to neo-Nazis in Ukraine which I also heard back in the day.

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Maybe take some time to flesh out your ideas. This is extremely disjointed and hard to follow.

Laodicean60 said:

This is pretty much how I feel with NATO: How much do we need, the whole world?

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Isolationism isn't really a viable strategy for the US today. From an economic standpoint, we have relatively little manufacturing capacity, and in an age of interconnectedness (thanks to the Internet), removing ourselves from the global conversation seems unwise.

Laodicean60 said:

Russia Has Been Warning About Ukraine for Decades. The West Should Have Listened

"The threat to NATO’s safety and prestige are largely of its own making with its empty commitments to countries that it has neither the will nor the ability to defend."

time.com

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The problem with this article is that it ignores the concept of Ukrainian sovereignty and self-determination. And, critically, it's incorrect in its prediction of the results of a Russian invasion.

Laodicean60 said:

I can't blame them one bit because Ukraine is losing territory. They are also aiding Russia in the fight. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
"The top Chinese diplomat delivered his response before the Munich Security Conference on Saturday. "There are not ripe conditions in place for parties to go back to the negotiating table," he announced in an on-stage interview.

"China has done a lot of constructive work and we will continue to play a positive role," he added. Noticeably, China has never outright condemned the war or Russia's invasion. Instead, it has issued a number of statements highlighting the role of NATO's expansions in leading up to the crisis."

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

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Everything we've done to date has been to American detriment and Chinese benefit.

Russian and Chinese trade is now flourishing, Russia is showing the world how strong they are, and we've just created an axis that can take us down.

Of course Russia is getting this advice from China. This war in Ukraine does nothing but hurt us. We should have gone to the negotiating table when Putin first asked for it.

Hazelelponi said:

Everything we've done to date has been to American detriment and Chinese benefit.

Russian and Chinese trade is now flourishing,

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China is definitely benefitting, but Russia was never a major US trade partner, even prior to the invasion (peak trade of goods and services was around $50 billion in 2012).

Hazelelponi said:

Russia is showing the world how strong they are, and we've just created an axis that can take us down.

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Hazelelponi said:

Of course Russia is getting this advice from China. This war in Ukraine does nothing but hurt us. We should have gone to the negotiating table when Putin first asked for it.

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This is a war between Russia and Ukraine. What, exactly, is there for the US to negotiate?

Laodicean60 said:

When we used to be the leader nation we could bring countries to the table now we ask China to.

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I don't think the US has ever had any success at bringing Putin to a negotiating table - especially for anything that didn't directly involve us. The Minsk Agreements were brokered by a coalition of European nations (primarily France and Germany). Likewise the ceasefire that ended the Russo-Georgian war in 2008. And I'm pretty sure we're not asking China to take that role in Ukraine - they're volunteering themselves.

Hazelelponi said:

Everything we've done to date has been to American detriment and Chinese benefit.

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Would you care to elaborate? The collective west's support of Ukraine should give China pause when considering invading Taiwan.

Hazelelponi said:

Russian and Chinese trade is now flourishing, Russia is showing the world how strong they are, and we've just created an axis that can take us down.

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It's up a bit, but Russia is selling cheap and has limited other partners for trade.

Hazelelponi said:

Of course Russia is getting this advice from China. This war in Ukraine does nothing but hurt us. We should have gone to the negotiating table when Putin first asked for it.

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we (the US) are not a party to the Russo-Ukranian war. Just an arms supplier.