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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
What home schooling hides: A boy tortured and starved by his stepmom
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- notadragqueen
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It would be really helpful if people would read the article and the thread before posting knee jerk reactions.
The issue is not home schooling. The issue is the lack of oversight which allows cases like this to go unnoticed.
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RocksInMyHead
God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
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Of course I would, but this isn't analogous to any situation that is actually happening. It's what many homeschool parents appear to believe will happen if the state requires counseling visits, but the specific bill mentioned in the OP article included doctors and psychologists as potential people that could be met with, and they're generally not going to be qualified to assess a curriculum based on a short meeting with a student.
It's hard to work to rectify a situation if one party enters into the conversation baselessly assuming malice on behalf of the other party.
The primary driver of low literacy rates and poor education outcomes is poverty, not curriculum or education spending or politics. I did some quick and dirty Excel graphs this morning and found this (data from World Population Review and US Census):
Pointing out that this data (edit: the science data) is from 2015, so trying to relate it to the current "culture war" issues is more difficult. And trying to relate religious belief to science performance is a bit of a red herring - this assessment only covers 4th grade and 8th grade science, which doesn't really get much into evolution or the origins of the Earth.And why are we seeing these types of outcomes with regards to mathematics?
Is it remotely possible that some of the stuff some of the blue states are pushing aren't really all that valuable in terms of creating an educated populace? (at least withing the realm of knowledge base that has practical applications)
With regards to math, scores are trending down nationwide. Comparing 2022 to 2015, the only improvement was in the DoDEA (+2). Illinois and Mississippi were flat, and everyone else got worse. Compared to 2009, things look slightly better, but that's not saying much (8 states plus the DoD show improvements).
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I'm trying to find some more "up to date" 12th grade data on the matter...not sure why the DOE decided back in 2013 to stop reporting on that grade level.
It's one of those things I'm actually interested in seeing objective academic achievement numbers on.
You can find "state education rankings" from different sources, but they're all putting their various spins on it and seem to be heavily weighting metrics that align with their values to establish the "rank".
For instance, if you see a report that factors in a "school choice grade" as a positive metric, you can tell it's coming from a conservative slanted source that are trying to push red states up higher on the list... Likewise, if they're adding an "inclusivity score" as a positive metric, that's coming from a more progressive source that's attempting to bump blue states up higher on the list.
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rambot
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Y'all should be looking at the lateste ranking with PISA; it's an international ranking JUST put out yesterday.
ALL over the globe there was a lowered performance so nobody is really bucking that trend.
The GOOD news is that it shows exactly HOW impactful schools are in their learning. The bad news is that everyone is now behind.
With that said, I would also be VERY VERY curious about see how homeschool scores changed. Because theoretically, they should at LEAST be unchanged.
ALL over the globe there was a lowered performance so nobody is really bucking that trend.
The GOOD news is that it shows exactly HOW impactful schools are in their learning. The bad news is that everyone is now behind.
With that said, I would also be VERY VERY curious about see how homeschool scores changed. Because theoretically, they should at LEAST be unchanged.
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InChristAlone525
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This is a horrifying case of abuse and murder. Where were the neighbors? Did they not have anyone around them to be suspicious? It's horrifying that murderers and kidnappers and child abusers can house children where their neighbors have no idea what's going on. Why do we need the state to monitor people? I do not agree with any kind of state oversight of families. I'm pretty disappointed that a Christian forum has so many communists and marxists. Did you know Karl Marx believed the only thing standing in the way of communism was the nuclear family? He wanted it GONE. Please read the Communist Manifesto if you really want state surveillance, it will open your eyes to how destructive it is.
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It's not baseless when the people proposing the rules are the same people who have been opposing homeschooling all along.
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RocksInMyHead
God is innocent; Noah built on a floodplain!
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Then perhaps the homeschoolers should propose alternatives, rather than just saying, "No, we don't wanna!". How do you think we should prevent kids like Roman and his brothers from slipping through the cracks?
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We can find a hundred cases in which the First Amendment or the Fifth Amendment or some other cherished American freedom has permitted someone to be murdered. How many times has the judicial presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt resulted in someone being murdered? How often has habeas corpus resulted in someone being murdered?
This may sound cold, but it's like every other issue of public policy: How great is the actual problem?
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RocksInMyHead
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What rights are we balancing here, precisely? Because, while the solution should not be more burdensome than the problem, I fail to see a significant burden in concept imposed by a child having occasional interactions with a counselor to ensure that they are safe at home. This function is performed in public schools by the day-to-day interactions between teachers and their students, so it's not like it's a special requirement placed upon homeschoolers.
So far, all that's been presented as a negative is that the state might use these interactions to pry into the details of the curriculum being taught, and then might take actions against a homeschooling parent if that curriculum doesn't meet certain standards that might not be reasonable. That's a lot of "mights" - and they can be mitigated with legislation if they're that concerning.
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RocksInMyHead
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Every time there's a school shooting, measures are proposed to mitigate the circumstances that led to that shooting - we've seen additions of security screenings, more school resource officers, pushes to improve mental health services, gun control proposals, etc. There's no "crackdown" on homeschooling being proposed - just measures to mitigate the circumstances that lead to abusers being able to hide their victims in the homeschooling system (like having them occasionally interact with a mandatory reporter, or requiring parents to inform the school district that they are homeschooling their children).
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Ave Maria
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I am all for the right to homeschool one's children but sadly it can be used to hide child neglect and abuse from the people who could report it.
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It's up to the government that proposes new regulations and laws to prove their necessity and harmlessness.
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As the OP, I deny that. If I had a motive, it was to support certain common sense regulations to homeschooling, such as those proposed by the Michigan lawmaker that were ignored.
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