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Putin and the Jews

Roman57

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Putin had soft place in his heart towards Jewish people. This is because when he was a little boy, the Jewish family gave him food. Also one of his teachers was Jewish and he bought her an apartment in Israel. Also some of his judo coaches were Jewish as well. He put his month's salary to the construction of Jewish museum in Moscow. He was giving long speeches on Holocaust remembrance day in Israel, and he was seen at Yad Vashem and other Jewish places with Yarmolke.

In light of this, his fight to denazify Ukraine can be viewed as his over-concern towards Jewish people: he wants to protect Jews living in Ukraine from Ukrainian antisemites. It is true that America cares about Jews a lot more than Putin does (at least when it comes to its policy towards Israel). But one might argue that, in case of America, its concern towards Jews is being overshadowed by its concern towards democracy. So, even though Americans disagree with Ukrainian antisemites, their belief in freedom would preclude them from wanting to persecute said antisemite. On the other hand, in case of dictator such as Putin, the democracy is not part of the equation. And, therefore, a dictator who has soft spot for the Jews is willing to kill antisemites the way Putin does.

The claim that Hitler was a Jew is not antisemitic, neither is reference to Jewish background of Zelensky. Quite the opposite in fact. It is a common Zionist argument against leftist Jews whom they regard as "self hating". Zionists would remind people that Hitler was a Jew and that there were Jews that were collaborating with Hitler, and then claim that today's Jews, such as Noam Chomsky, are the same. What Zionists say about Chomsky parallels what Putin says about Zelensky. In both cases, they are trying to discredit "self hating" Jews in the name of the interests of other Jews. When Putin mentions Jewish background of Zelensky, he always does it in order to say how Zelensky is a traitor to, or misrepresentation of, other Jews. Which is exactly what Zionists do when they mention Jewish background of Chomsky. So if Zionists aren't antisemitic, neither is Putin.

But then comes the twist. Putin collaborates with Iran in this. But wait a second. Iran is a lot more antisemitic than Ukraine. So why would extremely antisemitic country, such as Iran, help Putin in fighting a moderately antisemitic country, such as Ukraine?

And then comes even bigger twist. Israel didn't support Putin in this, and consequently, Putin turned against Israel. That is probably why Putin didn't express any sympathy to Israel after the current attack by Hamas. So wait a second. Is Israel more antisemitic than Putin? And if Putin's whole deal is to fight antisemitism, why would he BECOME antisemitic (by establishing even closer ties with Iran AND refusing to express sympathy towards Israel) in the name of supposedly fighting antisemitism?

By the way, this is a repetition of what happened in case of ISIS. While traditionally US fights Islamic terrorists while Russia backs them, in case of ISIS it was the other way around. Suddenly Russia became opposed to them and accused the US of backing them. But then suddenly Iran joined Russia in those same accusations. Why would Iran join Russia in opposing Islamic terrorists and accuse the US of supporting them? That is similar to Iran joining Russia in opposing Ukrainian antisemites and accuse the US of supporting them.

Now, in case of Iran opposing ISIS, this is due to the division between the two kinds of Muslims (Shia and Sunni). So could it be that Iran opposing Ukrainian antisemites is the case of division of two kinds of antisemites (Western antisemitism vs Eastern antisemitism)? Putin is all against Western antisemitism (thats the one that Nazi is part of) but he has no problem with Eastern antisemitism (be it Palestine or Iran), and thats why Palestine and Iran can join him both in his fight against ISIS and in his fight against Western antisemites?
 
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BobRyan

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Putin had soft place in his heart towards Jewish people. This is because when he was a little boy, the Jewish family gave him food. Also one of his teachers was Jewish and he bought her an apartment in Israel. Also some of his judo coaches were Jewish as well. He put his month's salary to the construction of Jewish museum in Moscow. He was giving long speeches on Holocaust remembrance day in Israel, and he was seen at Yad Vashem and other Jewish places with Yarmolke.

In light of this, his fight to denazify Ukraine can be viewed as his over-concern towards Jewish people: he wants to protect Jews living in Ukraine from Ukrainian antisemites.

Israel does not appear to be impressed by Putin's bombing of Jews in Ukraine nor of his claim that his is cutting off food, water, heat, etc from Jews in Ukraine to "save them".

Putin has been pretty open about wanting to re-establish the old Soviet Union and so grabbing territory in Ukraine and bombing Ukraine from boarder-to-boarder including hospitals, schools, day care centers... sending criminals in right out of prison to commit crimes against the people in Ukraine... all those 'Things' that Jews do not approve of.
But then comes the twist. Putin collaborates with Iran in this. But wait a second. Iran is a lot more antisemitic than Ukraine. So why would extremely antisemitic country, such as Iran, help Putin in fighting a moderately antisemitic country, such as Ukraine?

And then comes even bigger twist. Israel didn't support Putin in this, and consequently, Putin turned against Israel.
Turns out the de-nazi-fy talk was just the marketing campaign for a land-grab and a plan to install a Moscow puppet government in Ukraine while also using all of its natural resources.
 
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FireDragon76

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Putin had soft place in his heart towards Jewish people. This is because when he was a little boy, the Jewish family gave him food. Also one of his teachers was Jewish and he bought her an apartment in Israel. Also some of his judo coaches were Jewish as well. He put his month's salary to the construction of Jewish museum in Moscow. He was giving long speeches on Holocaust remembrance day in Israel, and he was seen at Yad Vashem and other Jewish places with Yarmolke.

In light of this, his fight to denazify Ukraine can be viewed as his over-concern towards Jewish people: he wants to protect Jews living in Ukraine from Ukrainian antisemites. It is true that America cares about Jews a lot more than Putin does (at least when it comes to its policy towards Israel). But one might argue that, in case of America, its concern towards Jews is being overshadowed by its concern towards democracy. So, even though Americans disagree with Ukrainian antisemites, their belief in freedom would preclude them from wanting to persecute said antisemite. On the other hand, in case of dictator such as Putin, the democracy is not part of the equation. And, therefore, a dictator who has soft spot for the Jews is willing to kill antisemites the way Putin does.

The claim that Hitler was a Jew is not antisemitic, neither is reference to Jewish background of Zelensky. Quite the opposite in fact. It is a common Zionist argument against leftist Jews whom they regard as "self hating". Zionists would remind people that Hitler was a Jew and that there were Jews that were collaborating with Hitler, and then claim that today's Jews, such as Noam Chomsky, are the same. What Zionists say about Chomsky parallels what Putin says about Zelensky. In both cases, they are trying to discredit "self hating" Jews in the name of the interests of other Jews. When Putin mentions Jewish background of Zelensky, he always does it in order to say how Zelensky is a traitor to, or misrepresentation of, other Jews. Which is exactly what Zionists do when they mention Jewish background of Chomsky. So if Zionists aren't antisemitic, neither is Putin.

But then comes the twist. Putin collaborates with Iran in this. But wait a second. Iran is a lot more antisemitic than Ukraine. So why would extremely antisemitic country, such as Iran, help Putin in fighting a moderately antisemitic country, such as Ukraine?

And then comes even bigger twist. Israel didn't support Putin in this, and consequently, Putin turned against Israel. That is probably why Putin didn't express any sympathy to Israel after the current attack by Hamas. So wait a second. Is Israel more antisemitic than Putin? And if Putin's whole deal is to fight antisemitism, why would he BECOME antisemitic (by establishing even closer ties with Iran AND refusing to express sympathy towards Israel) in the name of supposedly fighting antisemitism?

By the way, this is a repetition of what happened in case of ISIS. While traditionally US fights Islamic terrorists while Russia backs them, in case of ISIS it was the other way around. Suddenly Russia became opposed to them and accused the US of backing them. But then suddenly Iran joined Russia in those same accusations. Why would Iran join Russia in opposing Islamic terrorists and accuse the US of supporting them? That is similar to Iran joining Russia in opposing Ukrainian antisemites and accuse the US of supporting them.

Now, in case of Iran opposing ISIS, this is due to the division between the two kinds of Muslims (Shia and Sunni). So could it be that Iran opposing Ukrainian antisemites is the case of division of two kinds of antisemites (Western antisemitism vs Eastern antisemitism)? Putin is all against Western antisemitism (thats the one that Nazi is part of) but he has no problem with Eastern antisemitism (be it Palestine or Iran), and thats why Palestine and Iran can join him both in his fight against ISIS and in his fight against Western antisemites?

Somebody has fallen victim to Putin's propaganda.

Let's put Russian attitudes towards Jews in simple terms: There are three religions legally recognized by the Russian Federation (Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Tantric Buddhism). Judaism isn't one of them. Jews in Russia have always been merely tolerated at best, at worst they have been subject to pogroms and restrictions in where they could live, both under the Tsar, but also under the Soviets.
 
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Roman57

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There are three religions legally recognized by the Russian Federation (Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Tantric Buddhism).

Actually I read there was four: Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Judaism.
 
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FireDragon76

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Actually I read there was four: Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Judaism.

Judaism in Russia as a religion hardly exists. There are only about 130,000 Jews in Russia and most of them are atheists and don't practice a religion. In Post-Tsarist Russia, Jews were always considered more of an ethnicity than a religion.
 
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Roman57

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In Post-Tsarist Russia, Jews were always considered more of an ethnicity than a religion.

Thats true. But then your argument about Jews being persecutted because religion Judaism supposedly didn't make the list wont work either.
 
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FireDragon76

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Thats true. But then your argument about Jews being persecutted because religion Judaism supposedly didn't make the list wont work either.

In Tsarist Russia, Judaism was not recognized as an official religion, unlike Sunni Islam and Tantric Buddhism.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Somebody has fallen victim to Putin's propaganda.

Let's put Russian attitudes towards Jews in simple terms: There are three religions legally recognized by the Russian Federation (Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Tantric Buddhism). Judaism isn't one of them. Jews in Russia have always been merely tolerated at best, at worst they have been subject to pogroms and restrictions in where they could live, both under the Tsar, but also under the Soviets.
Not sure how Putin recognizes Islam.

As I recall, Putin was brutal toward Muslim Chechon militants who were holding Russian civilians hostage in a school.
Not sure how accurate the story is, but a Boston radio host Howie Carr said that Putin began sending body parts of
family members to the terrorists in order for them to release Russians they were holding. If accurate, apparently it
worked as the terrorists ended up releasing the Russian hostages.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I worked with three Jewish women who left the former Soviet Union, in 1979. They had
nothing good to say about Putin, nor Russians in general. They were all treated badly
because they were Jewish.
 
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Roman57

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I worked with three Jewish women who left the former Soviet Union, in 1979. They had
nothing good to say about Putin, nor Russians in general. They were all treated badly
because they were Jewish.

I know that Russians in general are antisemitic, but Putin seems to be an exception to this. That is one of the admirable things about Putin that, despite historic antisemitism of Russia, he seems to be Jew friendly.

As far as Jews not liking Putin, Jews not liking someone, is not necessarily an indication of that someone not liking Jews. Let me give you an example from America. So, in America, 80% of Jews vote Democrat, and this is despite the fact that Republicans are more pro-Israel than Democrats are, along with the fact that the values Republicans support are coming from the Old Testament. So maybe American Jews disliking Republicans despite the fact that Republicans support Jews, is similar to the fact that Russian Jews dislike Putin despite the fact that Putin supports Jews.

It seems like there is something about the Jews that made them fit into certain pattern, despite the fact that said pattern logically contradicts the commitment to Judaism as such. For example, it doesn't make sense why Jews like to go to Chinese restaurant. In Chinese restaurant almost everything has oyster sauce in it, so it is very hard to keep kosher there. Yet there is something about the Jews that make them go to Chinese restaurant. And this parallels Jewish view on homosexuality. Both going to Chinese Restaurant and supporting homosexuality, both violate Torah, yet those two tendencies seem to be especially prevalent among the Jews (80% of Jews support homosexuality in comparison to only 60% of non-Jews, and Jews are known to like Chinese restaurants, too). Also if you look at Old Testament you see that Jewish heroes, such as King Solomon or King David, are all very strong. Yet today Jewish identity is rooted in weakness (as exemplified by Anne Frank and so forth).

So yeah, the point is that I know very well that Jews don't like Putin. But that doesn't logically imply that Putin doesn't like Jews. It could be that Jewish dislike of Putin is one of those illogical genetic tendencies, similar to Jewish love of Chinese restaurants.

Also, here is one more food for thought. So you are saying Russians are antisemitic (and I agree). But ask yourself a question as to WHY are they more antisemitic than westerners? I can't think of any logical reason as to why. So if there can be "something about Russians" that makes them antisemitic "for no logical reason", then maybe there is also "something about Jews" that make them love Chinese Restaurant AND hate Putin also "for no logical reason".

By the way I am Jewish myself, I came to know Jesus at the age of 22. Intuitively I do have a sense of those tendencies (both among Russians and among Jews) but I was always curious to know the logical reason behind them, and thats the part I still don't fully understand.
 
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FireDragon76

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Not sure how Putin recognizes Islam.

He does. Islam has been a recognized religion in Russia since the Tsar's days.

As I recall, Putin was brutal toward Muslim Chechon militants who were holding Russian civilians hostage in a school.

Because they were separatists.

Not sure how accurate the story is, but a Boston radio host Howie Carr said that Putin began sending body parts of
family members to the terrorists in order for them to release Russians they were holding. If accurate, apparently it
worked as the terrorists ended up releasing the Russian hostages.

Russia has a history with Chechnya, similar to America's "Wild West" and Native Americans, and Chechnya features prominently in the Russian imagination. Even Leo Tolstoy wrote a history about a Chechen warlord, called Haji Murad.

There are other Muslim peoples in Russia, of course, not just Chechens.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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He does. Islam has been a recognized religion in Russia since the Tsar's days.



Because they were separatists.



Russia has a history with Chechnya, similar to America's "Wild West" and Native Americans, and Chechnya features prominently in the Russian imagination. Even Leo Tolstoy wrote a history about a Chechen warlord, called Haji Murad.

There are other Muslim peoples in Russia, of course, not just Chechens.
I was just thinking about it and Putin did in fact support the Syrian government and their fight against ISIS. Iran also supported Syria's fight against ISIS, who of course were radical Sunni Muslims. Iran is Shiite and Assad in Syria is Baathists, like Saddam Husein was. So, that's one flavor of Islam that Putin seems to tolerate.
 
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Roman57

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I was just thinking about it and Putin did in fact support the Syrian government and their fight against ISIS. Iran also supported Syria's fight against ISIS, who of course were radical Sunni Muslims. Iran is Shiite and Assad in Syria is Baathists, like Saddam Husein was. So, that's one flavor of Islam that Putin seems to tolerate.

Which of those two types of Islam do Chechens subscribe to?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Which of those two types of Islam do Chechens subscribe to?
Googling it, it said Sufism is the predominantly form if Islam in Chechnya. However,
the terrorists who took Russians as hostage, I'm not sure what form of Islam they
follow, except I believe it's the wrong one.
 
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FireDragon76

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Googling it, it said Sufism is the predominantly form if Islam in Chechnya. However,
the terrorists who took Russians as hostage, I'm not sure what form of Islam they
follow, except I believe it's the wrong one.

Almost all Muslims in the Russian Federation are Sunni.
 
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FireDragon76

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I know that Russians in general are antisemitic, but Putin seems to be an exception to this. That is one of the admirable things about Putin that, despite historic antisemitism of Russia, he seems to be Jew friendly.

As far as Jews not liking Putin, Jews not liking someone, is not necessarily an indication of that someone not liking Jews. Let me give you an example from America. So, in America, 80% of Jews vote Democrat, and this is despite the fact that Republicans are more pro-Israel than Democrats are, along with the fact that the values Republicans support are coming from the Old Testament. So maybe American Jews disliking Republicans despite the fact that Republicans support Jews, is similar to the fact that Russian Jews dislike Putin despite the fact that Putin supports Jews.

The state of Israel and Jews aren't the same thing. Israel was started by Zionists, but do not represent all Jews worldwide.

Most American Jews are Reformed Jews or Conservative Jews, not Orthodox or Haredi. Or they are secular and irreligious. A sizeable minority are also not pro Israeli in their politics. Reformed Jews are similar to Mainline Protestants in their religious ethics and outlook, they don't take the Bible literally.

It seems like there is something about the Jews that made them fit into certain pattern, despite the fact that said pattern logically contradicts the commitment to Judaism as such.

Or it only seem to, to you. Judaism isn't similar to Evangelical Christianity. It has its own intellectual and ethical traditions and interpretive traditions of the Bible. Most American Jews would probably view their politics as consistent with their religious beliefs.

For example, it doesn't make sense why Jews like to go to Chinese restaurant.

Because Chinese restaurants used to be open on Christmas, a holiday Jews didn't generally celebrate.

In Chinese restaurant almost everything has oyster sauce in it, so it is very hard to keep kosher there.

Oyster sauce at Chinese restaurants doesn't usually contain any oysters, for many reasons, that being one of them.

And this parallels Jewish view on homosexuality. Both going to Chinese Restaurant and supporting homosexuality, both violate Torah, yet those two tendencies seem to be especially prevalent among the Jews

As I pointed out, Jews have their own hermeneutical traditions and they don't view their politics as inconsistent with that.

(80% of Jews support homosexuality in comparison to only 60% of non-Jews, and Jews are known to like Chinese restaurants, too). Also if you look at Old Testament you see that Jewish heroes, such as King Solomon or King David, are all very strong. Yet today Jewish identity is rooted in weakness (as exemplified by Anne Frank and so forth).

Anne Frank wasn't a weak person. In fact that seems deeply problematic to me, contrary to the spirit of Jesus. Strength isn't based in having power over others and being able to compel them to do what you want, but in being able to uphold your humanity in the face of evil. In that regard, Anne Frank was a strong person.

In religious Judaism, the victims of the Holocaust are martyrs, not weaklings.
 
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mindlight

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Somebody has fallen victim to Putin's propaganda.

Let's put Russian attitudes towards Jews in simple terms: There are three religions legally recognized by the Russian Federation (Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Tantric Buddhism). Judaism isn't one of them. Jews in Russia have always been merely tolerated at best, at worst they have been subject to pogroms and restrictions in where they could live, both under the Tsar, but also under the Soviets.

The law identifies Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism as the country’s four “traditional” religions and recognizes the special role of the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC).

 
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mindlight

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Putin had soft place in his heart towards Jewish people. This is because when he was a little boy, the Jewish family gave him food. Also one of his teachers was Jewish and he bought her an apartment in Israel. Also some of his judo coaches were Jewish as well. He put his month's salary to the construction of Jewish museum in Moscow. He was giving long speeches on Holocaust remembrance day in Israel, and he was seen at Yad Vashem and other Jewish places with Yarmolke.

In light of this, his fight to denazify Ukraine can be viewed as his over-concern towards Jewish people: he wants to protect Jews living in Ukraine from Ukrainian antisemites. It is true that America cares about Jews a lot more than Putin does (at least when it comes to its policy towards Israel). But one might argue that, in case of America, its concern towards Jews is being overshadowed by its concern towards democracy. So, even though Americans disagree with Ukrainian antisemites, their belief in freedom would preclude them from wanting to persecute said antisemite. On the other hand, in case of dictator such as Putin, the democracy is not part of the equation. And, therefore, a dictator who has soft spot for the Jews is willing to kill antisemites the way Putin does.

The claim that Hitler was a Jew is not antisemitic, neither is reference to Jewish background of Zelensky. Quite the opposite in fact. It is a common Zionist argument against leftist Jews whom they regard as "self hating". Zionists would remind people that Hitler was a Jew and that there were Jews that were collaborating with Hitler, and then claim that today's Jews, such as Noam Chomsky, are the same. What Zionists say about Chomsky parallels what Putin says about Zelensky. In both cases, they are trying to discredit "self hating" Jews in the name of the interests of other Jews. When Putin mentions Jewish background of Zelensky, he always does it in order to say how Zelensky is a traitor to, or misrepresentation of, other Jews. Which is exactly what Zionists do when they mention Jewish background of Chomsky. So if Zionists aren't antisemitic, neither is Putin.

But then comes the twist. Putin collaborates with Iran in this. But wait a second. Iran is a lot more antisemitic than Ukraine. So why would extremely antisemitic country, such as Iran, help Putin in fighting a moderately antisemitic country, such as Ukraine?

And then comes even bigger twist. Israel didn't support Putin in this, and consequently, Putin turned against Israel. That is probably why Putin didn't express any sympathy to Israel after the current attack by Hamas. So wait a second. Is Israel more antisemitic than Putin? And if Putin's whole deal is to fight antisemitism, why would he BECOME antisemitic (by establishing even closer ties with Iran AND refusing to express sympathy towards Israel) in the name of supposedly fighting antisemitism?

By the way, this is a repetition of what happened in case of ISIS. While traditionally US fights Islamic terrorists while Russia backs them, in case of ISIS it was the other way around. Suddenly Russia became opposed to them and accused the US of backing them. But then suddenly Iran joined Russia in those same accusations. Why would Iran join Russia in opposing Islamic terrorists and accuse the US of supporting them? That is similar to Iran joining Russia in opposing Ukrainian antisemites and accuse the US of supporting them.

Now, in case of Iran opposing ISIS, this is due to the division between the two kinds of Muslims (Shia and Sunni). So could it be that Iran opposing Ukrainian antisemites is the case of division of two kinds of antisemites (Western antisemitism vs Eastern antisemitism)? Putin is all against Western antisemitism (thats the one that Nazi is part of) but he has no problem with Eastern antisemitism (be it Palestine or Iran), and thats why Palestine and Iran can join him both in his fight against ISIS and in his fight against Western antisemites?

Do love and hate have much to do with the way that Putin acts vis-a-vis the Jews? Playing to closet Russian anti-semitism wins him support with the Russian mob during an unpopular war. Israel is a staunch ally of the USA and it appears that Putin and Netanyahu have had some kind of falling out in recent years, Russia clamped down on Jewish emigration in 2022 and received no support in its war from Israel. Iran supplies many of Russia's drones during this war and Russia is still playing the Great Game in the Middle East to try and secure influence with the wider Arab world, the more unpopular Israel and the USA are the more influence the Russians hope to glean. There are reasons most of Russia's Jews left after the Cold War and went to Israel, life was hard for them in Russia.

In practice, Russia is fighting a deNazification operation against Ukraine which is led by an elected Jewish president (Zelensky). You have to do some pretty heavy mental gymnastics to get around that fact but Putin and Lavrov are fully up to that task. Their main concern right now appears to be securing the weapons supply from Iran and maximizing their own influence in the Middle East. Anti-semitism does not really figure in the equation in real terms, these are just words to Putin, reality is about power for him.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Judaism in Russia as a religion hardly exists. There are only about 130,000 Jews in Russia and most of them are atheists and don't practice a religion. In Post-Tsarist Russia, Jews were always considered more of an ethnicity than a religion.
I'm not very interested in the thread, but Jews in Israel itself aren't particularly religious themselves.

According to the following Pew Research article, " Jews are less religious than members of Israel’s other major faith communities – Muslims, Christians and Druze – by most comparable measures."


Israeli Jews vary enormously in their religious observance, with major differences tied inherently to the four major Jewish identity groups. The share who say they go to religious services at a synagogue at least once a week, for example, ranges from nearly all Orthodox Jewish men (Haredi and Dati) and majorities of Orthodox women to very few secular (Hiloni) men and practically no Hiloni women.

Overall, Jews are less religious than members of Israel’s other major faith communities – Muslims, Christians and Druze – by most comparable measures. For instance, fully 68% of Israeli Muslims say religion holds a very important place in their lives, followed by 57% of Christians, 49% of Druze and 30% of Jews.
 
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